Forum - View topicEP. REVIEW: Maria the Virgin Witch
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ChibiKangaroo
 Posts: 2941 |
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I feel like this is the first time the elephant in the room was actually addressed. Though, it seems like the talkback about this episode has involved some discussion about it. This show appears to be a harsh critique of Christianity, not merely from a historical standpoint, but from a general standpoint. (God is essentially timeless, so the negative portrayals of God in this show extend to our time.) The critique deals with (among other things): (1) the alleged hypocrisy of God, (2) the corruption of the earthly Church, and (3) supplanting of Christ by witches, who are portrayed as being superior to either Christ himself or Christian teachings. On this last point, I think there is little doubt thus far that Maria is being set up as a Jesus-like character. Even Gabriella said in her most recent review that she fully expects Maria to do something "transcendent" in the final episode that will change the mindset of all the people we have seen involved in this story. That's the takeaway that I've seen so far, though obviously there are a few episodes left so this could change. Whether people like such a harsh critique of Christianity is, I suppose, up to their own perspective. I certainly don't think Christianity is above criticism, but I am more concerned with the crude and heavy-handed way it has been done in this show. Essentially, I think the show is "preaching to the choir." I don't know how big that choir is among anime viewers. Maybe that will be revealed when we have final numbers on whether this show was a hit or a flop. I happened to be reading another review about this show, and the reviewer linked this article which I think brings up a lot of interesting questions, and perhaps some answers, but I am doubtful that this show's trajectory is going to touch upon much of those things if, as Gabriella said, the story will focus on Maria becoming a transcendent figure who teaches us all a lesson. Child asks Pope why God allows children to suffer |
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addiemon
Posts: 93 |
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That concept pops up a lot and in many places- a recent example is in the U.S. comic series Fables (albeit with storybook characters rather than 'gods'), and I WANT to say that something similar existed in a Neil Gaiman work (American Gods? Sandman? One of his shorts? I can't remember), and I have a feeling neither of those works originated it, eitehr. Though interesting that the comparison brought your mind to Slayers, from the start Maria (the character) reminded me a tad of Lina- I assumed because of the big ball earrings -and because of that I've increasingly come to think of Maria a *LITTLE* bit as what a Lina-type character would be like in a more grounded/realistic setting. Man, I love this show. |
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cheshire1501
Posts: 51 |
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I alsmost forgot, is show going to even adress the figure of Joanne of Arc? Because that's a figure that is being brought up even today when it comes to people being motivated by faith, and considering her background, her feats become even more ludicrous
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DuskyPredator
 Posts: 15523 Location: Brisbane, Australia |
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Episode 10's review was exceptionally done, it said all the things I likely could not express, and took them just out of where I had taken them to their conclusions. Plus the great moment of Ezekiel shocked as she is covered in Viv's blood after being used as a spear.
As for Michael being mechanical or not, I believe that he was acting somewhat on emotion when he heard god being slandered of intent and nature. But the way he also acted was very inhumane as a way that was perhaps highlighting that he is without actual love beyond blind devotion. |
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Fronzel
Posts: 1906 |
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Gaiman's friend and fellow novelist Terry Pratchett used the idea in a number of his works, most notably Small Gods and Hogfather. |
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jroa
Posts: 542 |
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Once again, I would readily question this statement, based on the fact that the Christian God of this fictional universe has only been ostensibly portrayed in one particular scene and even then it was not inherently negative in nature. I don't think Viv's personal anger at God, which is essentially a criticism of Michael's behavior and his mindset, automatically or necessarily equals a negative portrayal of the archangel's boss.
I think a lot of this is also wide open to personal interpretation and further debate. (1) Rather than specifically discussing the hypocrisy of God per se (which has only really been brought up in two scenes, at most), I think the series is mainly criticizing the institutions, both earthly and heavenly, that ostensibly claim to act in God's name, but aren't always correct in their judgment of others like Maria who live outside of the system. (2) It does visibly reflect the corruption of certain Church officials, but I don't believe their portrayal was exclusively negative. There have been gray areas in certain scenes that, in my opinion, shouldn't be forgotten just because the series is not emphasizing the positives of the Church neither strongly nor frequently enough. (3) While there is in fact little doubt that Maria is being set up to carry out a potentially "transcendent" act it remains to be seen what that will be, and whether or not such a thing would remotely qualify as "supplanting" Christ with a witch. That logical step doesn't automatically follow. Especially when their respective contexts, meanings and messages would be very different. I don't think all martyrs, whether literal or figurative, are "Christ figures" just because they might inspire someone else into action or reflection. |
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Eldritcho
 Posts: 260 |
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American Gods and Sandman both used the theme of the gods being powered by human belief, as well as the idea of multiple versions of the same god running around in them. Gaiman wasn't the originator of the concept, but he definitely popularized it in modern fiction. I wouldn't be surprised if the director of Maria got some of his ideas from reading Gaiman's work. Now if only he could execute those ideas a little better and more thought out, and less ham-fistedly... |
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Eldritcho
Posts: 260 |
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Well, considering that Michael is usually portrayed as the literal Hand and Sword of God, enfaced with his power to enact his righteous will, I'd say that anything that he does is probably approved by God. At least if your going off of Christian lore. |
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azabaro
 SubscriberPosts: 252 |
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If we go off Christian lore then God is Love and is also absolute and not at all dependent on human belief, which would seem to challenge a lot of other parts of this interpretation. More interesting to me is that there's a division even within the opinions of the Heavenly Church - Ezekiel clearly doesn't want to enforce Michael's rules, favoring personal relationships over principles. Indeed, he actually encourages Maria to lie about wanting to be saved in order to preserve her life - you'd hardly expect an angel to prioritize earthly life over eternal salvation and truth. I think the show is trying to echo a theme about difficulties people have connecting with each other - Galfa wants to be friends with Joseph but is alienated from him, Viv wants to be friends with Maria but has trouble connecting with her, Anne's family (and Martha in particular) want to be friendly with Maria, etc. This is echoed in the disconnect between the English and the French, Bernard and Gilbert, the Heavenly and Earthly churches, and indeed in the distance between God and everyone else - He's just too alien. That's why Ezekiel is so critical; he shows this difficulty connecting extends not just to the link between the human and the divine, but even within the divine itself, to the point of confounding Michael ("Why did you miss?"). I take this along with Maria's self-doubt in the face of the crowd cheering for her death to mean people have a hard enough time understanding themselves in full, let alone others; for this reason I'm not sure we should take Viv's condemnation of God via Michael at face value. |
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SailorTralfamadore
 Posts: 499 Location: Keep Austin Weeb |
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The period Maria the Virgin Witch takes place in, the Late Middle Ages, is to me the most interesting slice of medieval history. It was a period of major turmoil (what with not only the Hundred Years' War, but also the Black Death, climate change and lots of other stuff) that led to a great deal of social change and unrest. Some of it was contained to that period (the 14th and early 15th centuries), but a lot of it set up for the broader changes of the Renaissance, the Protestant Reformation and the Counter-Reformation.
Anyway, if you need proof of how intertwined the church and state were at that time, as people were talking about a page or few ago, look at the fact that France literally installed its own papacy when it disagreed with the pope in Rome. Lots of Americans know about the Church of England coming about due to Rome refusing Henry VIII's divorce. Less of them know about the French "Antipopes." I'm interested to see if Maria does anything to deal with that specific historical moment, beyond just the backdrop of the Hundred Years' War. I wonder if Maria will actually reduce the influence of the church in some major way in their society. |
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Eldritcho
Posts: 260 |
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I was more responding to the fact of how it the real world texts, Michael is referred to as the Hand and Word of God. Depending what the show does with that is it's own business, but if it is intending to actually have any sort of stance or real discussion about religion, its practices and others interpretations of them, and some people in these comments seem to think it is, then it had better use the actual Christian lore. Otherwise, it is using its own head cannons to to make half thought out statements and conclusion on the natures of things. And that's just a shaky foundation to build anything on. |
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jroa
Posts: 542 |
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I think that's a very debatable point of view for several reasons. One, the references found in real world texts are always open to interpretation, considering the Bible as a written work is not exactly too clear about its own terminology to begin with. It's not too straightforward to say the least. There are clearly various sources that don't entirely agree with your premise about what "Word of God" or "Hand of God" are supposed to mean. In short, it's complicated. You say those terms are supposedly referring to Michael and expect the show to assume the same thing, but that is far from a consensus. In fact, even people who have dedicated their lives to studying the Bible have reached very different conclusions over the centuries, to say nothing of the last few decades, about what certain words and passages mean. Serious discussions about religions are not as one-sided as you seem to suggest. Two, I believe the series is far more interested in the question of institutions and how they affect people rather than trying to make a statement about the entire religion that is accurate to the last detail, much less include all of its lore. You're free to expect otherwise, but that doesn't make the results uninteresting or invalid. Christian lore is rather diverse. I am not even discussing the actual core beliefs of the religion here, but the lore is not exactly an unchanging body of work with just one meaning. Fiction that deals with religious topics can -and often does- choose to focus on certain aspects and not so much on others. This is even true of productions made by those who are far more familiar with the Bible than the average Japanese person. Finally, there's the matter of what has already been established by the show itself as well as multiple situations in the Bible where the angels can in fact be considered as distinctly separate entities from God rather than merely extensions of the same. Maria's Michael does have the apparent approval of God, that is not even in question, but God can in fact overrule him because they're not one and the same. |
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Key
Moderator
 Posts: 18274 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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That whole scenario ended in 1377, though, and various references definitively set the date in the late 1440s. Seems illogical that it would come up. |
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vashthekaizoku
 Posts: 261 Location: The House of Rat |
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Not sure if this has been mentioned earlier, but I see Edwina's choice of scarf color and personality and can't help making Hufflepuff jokes...her tenacity in episode 10 shows that you can't always count a Hufflepuff out!
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Ingraman
Posts: 1080 |
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Since watching Funimation's a slight PITA with my current a/v setup (Please hurry up with the PS4 app, Funi, although you're probably fine whether or not I watch anything. You've already got my money as a subscriber...), I've only just finished watching the latest three (quite good) episodes. ^^;
I doubt that we're hearing her actual speaking voice, but maybe she's almost an "old" lady herself, and just trying to sound like a "older lady". ANN's encyclopedia says that her seiyuu, Ichijou Miyuki, turned 65 last year... |
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