Forum - View topicNEWS: ADV Head Says UK Issues May Be Due to Illegal Releases
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britannicamoore
 Posts: 2618 Location: Out. |
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What does a dead actor have to to do with this? They can go get another actor. As for Harry potter, there was no where to get the actual book before hand so I waited. had there been, I probably would have read that first and then bought the book. As long as I didn't pay for it it'd be fine with that. its hard to compare a book to a weekly release. You'll see this a few times: So long as I buy the show in the end who cares?
They want me to pay for it. You said it yourself, thats what works for them. In Japan. that doesn't fly here, and its becoming more and more apparent. And yet they ignore it. i feel i can say, with confidence, they are trying to fail instead of adapting. If humans didn't apdat to changes we'd be dead. If they started charing $60 for 2 episodes I can almost gurantee that'd the industry in America would be non-existent by the end of the month.
If I want to watch something I go watch it. Period. With harry potter there were some leaked chapteres here and there and I read them. I also stood in line in the cold to get the book. Who did I hurt?
Again, I commend you on your waiting. I don't spend my money that way. If you're going to buy it read the scans. If they are going to get your money whats the point in waiting? As for ratings, he could still watch the show. Is there a barrier up thats says he can't? [/quote]
but what stops him from still watching it again on cn?
Paranoid? Chip on your choulder? I didn't say that, did I? I was just reading between the lines. I'm not paranoid at all, the ones who feel the indutrsy is going to collaspe tomorrow are. I don't really watch anime on tv. It seems like from the tone of your post unless this cat is out there buying he's worthless to the industry.
It depends on what gets you thru the nite, doesn't it? I can & do re-watch anime dvds. My daughter shows them to friends when they come over-she got her BF interested in Death Note by taking the dvdss over to his place & watching them with him & she gave hims half the manga for Christmas, but since she's got him to stop downloading anime, he doesn't want to read past what's airing (Although Vol 6 isn't going to get him that far ahead of what's airing [/quote] Normal people, the ones who don't sit and play for days at a time have a more realistic time in finishing a game. Either way, you aren't going to be most games (not childern games) in under a day. Way to sound arrogant. its not my fault you can't see common sense when it slaps you in face. The title of this whole thread is "ADV Head Says UK Issues May be due to illegal releases." You anti-fansub people jump out waving flags and banners like that says more than may. I knew I was going to hear about that kid before the thread was over. Glad to hear she's fighting the good fight. Cripes 
*thanks shadowblack for helping me fix tags. I didn't completely finish but hey, close enough. Last edited by britannicamoore on Sun Mar 09, 2008 7:34 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Fallout2man
Posts: 274 Location: San Diego, CA |
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Can't entirely say for sure but from my understanding copyright originated as a form of control over printing presses in England. Since printing presses were expensive, heavy pieces of machinery, you could keep track of them. The king would issue a copyright to company A for book Y saying only they had explicit permission to print that book on their presses. This let the King review the material of the book and decide whether or not he wanted to ban it. This though gradually changed over time and became more of a protection for writers. American copyright though was based on the ideas of Jefferson and Madison who firmly believed it was at best a necessary evil to further the progress of society and that was why its explicit purpose was written into the section of the constitution authorizing it. We're getting off on a tangent though. The point is you slighted the article and refused to consider anything else because of one paragraph you deemed invalid for reasons that we've just admitted aren't true. Artists did exist and they'd still exist if the system collapsed. That's not what I'm interested in though, but rather the story relating to the evolution of American property law.
Indeed, but this refutes the moral argument that copyright holders are automatically entitled to infinite benefits and/or perpetual ownership because it was their work is bunk because short of being a minarchist or anarcho-capitalist you've got to admit that being taxed, which is having your rightfully earned income taken away, for things you'll never ever receive any direct benefit from, are worthwhile at times. This means that there ARE acceptable situations wherein the needs of society outweigh the needs or desires of an individual. This also means that it may be acceptable therefore to break an unjust law. Which directly attacks your Robin Hood analogy. So therefore if it isn't automatically right or wrong, you've now got to specify why in this case it is or isn't.
The problem, as the article points out so well though, is that whether it's viewed as a commodity or not, whether it's tangible or not, people won't respect the law until the law is revised to be in line with the people's views and until such a point it will never be widely obeyed or respected in any capacity no matter what the penalties or level of enforcement are. |
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Goodpenguin
Posts: 457 Location: Hunt Valley, MD |
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geowrian wrote:
This isn't to be rude/hostile, but most all your arguments in this thread (as well of a few other posters) are all re-hashes of points offered and argued dozens upon dozens of times over the last few months. I respect everybody likes to get their two cents in, but when every fansub thread returns to 'Here's my personal manifesto!!' material that repeatedly covers the same few talking points, it really sinks the 'on topic' currents of the conservation. The 'flavor of the month' in fansub defense seems to be this vaguely business-sounding rhetoric mixed into the same old brew. Vague business terms are peppered into the conservation like they were a magical incantation, as if the mere act of speaking them imparted some deep wisdom upon the writer (There should be a site contest to guess how many times the term 'monetize' shows up on the message boards during the month). While I think it's absolutely true the industry must adapt to a market reality where piracy is prevalent and legal protections under-powered, some people are being massively disingenuous and glib in portraying this as one type of 'business model' overpowering an older one that simply doesn't want to update. Speaking of arguments that have been dealt with before, here's the take on that from this very thread: "It's utterly asinine to compare, in a market sense, a commercial property and a non-commercial property. 'Commercial Market' rules are designed for products operating in the commercial sphere, not free, non-commercial alternatives. You may run across marketing articles detailing business plans for bottled water to compete against other commercial beverages, like Coke and Snapple. What you won't see are detailed sales break-downs of bottled water vs. tap water, it's apples vs. oranges. Fansubs are explicitly not a new 'Business Model'. There's nothing technically 'commercial' about them, for 'Business model' purposes they are a 'force of nature', an element that occurs irrespective to the business market." You can't employ commercial market expectations/judgments when you have a commercial product vs. a non-commercial product. Even the very disjointed and partisan 'You Can Compete with Free' article linked to earlier assumes that one has two or more competing commercial properties, that is to say several competing elements that are all given the same (theoretical) legal/cost/manufacturing etc. 'realities' to start from. This is not anywhere near the case with fansubs, they are the non-commercial end-cycle copy of the output of a commercial process. In this scope, what is even the 'value-added' element of the above quoted example? What 'added value' does a $1.99 fast official subtitled release have over it's free fansub alternative? Here 'value-added' becomes a term with no specific bearing to the conversation, it's just jargon to dress up the argument and make it seem as if any and all the industries problems stem from a bad 'business model', and fansubbers are merely 'progressive' consumers who have blazed a new path. It's relevant to write/debate about realistic ways the industry could improve/stay profitable, but employing the most flimsiest of 'Market competition' arguments is nothing more then the new model 'Let's pass the Fansub Buck' rolled of the rhetoric assembly line (Though being honest, I do like it better then the conspiracy-theory/low-rent Utopian 'IP rights are a scam by the Government to keep you oppressed!!!' kick ). |
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Tofusensei
Posts: 365 |
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I like you, Goodpenguin. 
-Tofu |
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Sam-I-Am
Posts: 121 Location: Midwest US |
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No, I slighted an article that proposed to be an examination of copyright law that made no link, reference, or footnote regarding current statutes or conventions, and that used as its central example a comparison between a commodity with infinite multiple originals (digital video) and a commodity with a finite supply (real estate). The entire article is deeply flawed, which is why I think it can be classified as 'slanted'. If you think that the point of the article is that the law is lagging behind societal change, you would be right, but then again, the law always is lagging behind social change. Gay marriage is a current example - more and more people are in favor of it, or indifferent to it, yet the law still forbids it in most places.
Took me a while to figure out this run-on sentence... Taxation and copyright, or copyright theft, are two different things. You've got a double negative going in the first half, so I'll let you clarify what you're trying to say before answering - as for being taxed, I never said that I thought being taxed was robbery - you said that I must think that.
My Robin Hood analogy, coming after several paragraphs about fansubbers (page 10 of this thread), referred to the mentality of some fansubbers that they ought to have anime for free, without payment to the creators. My apologies if this linkage wasn't immediately clear. People wishing to watch entertainment for free is not a social cause worth breaking laws for, nor even calling the laws 'unjust'. I can't believe that the 'needs of society' to watch anime outweighs the rights of the creators to profit from it. Theft and taxation are two different things. A taxpayer can move to a different place, live so as not to incur taxes, hire lawyers to avoid taxes, or vote politicians in and out of office. The victim of a thief can only try to fight.
Here you're making some sense, as Prohibition and the 1980's War on Drugs provide easy examples of large numbers of people ignoring a body of law. However, both of those, and my gay marriage example above, involve freedom of personal behavior, and the article's example of Squatter's Rights involves the fact that there was not a clear procedure in place at first for divvying up land (little or no surveys, maps, courthouses, clerks, etc.). Downloading involves making unauthorized copies of items of known ownership, without regard to the existing legal means of obtaining a copy. When your actions impact another person's health or wealth, it's a different situation than when you're alone in your living room. |
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ikillchicken
 Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
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I'll repeat. I'm not demanding absolute proof before admitting fansubs may cause any kind of problem. I agree that is unreasonable and impossible to get definitely proof. However, as you now have said, this is a sign that fansubs may be hurting the industry. That isn't the same a clear proof which was my point. If you think it is a reasonable assumption that fansubs are to blame if the industry is in trouble then I won't go into that debate. However, that is still an assumption which has yet to be proven. I just wanted to clarify that saying this is proof is incorrect. |
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shadowblack
Posts: 37 |
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Several things, actually: 1) Speed of release – the official release will not require searching for a good raw (or any raw, for that matter), so it can be out literally MINUTES after the ep airs on TV, before ANY fansub group starts working 2) Quality (video, audio and subtitles): a) Like I said: no need to search for a good raw. The people making the official release should have access to the best raw available before the ep even airs on TV, therefore the video and audio quality should be better than (or in the worst case equal to) the best fansubs available b) As a result of a) the official release can be translated, timed, typesetted, quality checked and ready for release even before the ep airs on TV So in theory the choice will be between “no wait and high quality, but for a small price”, and “free, but with questionable quality (and slower, too)”. Of course, all of the above ASSUMES that the official releases WILL be better than the fansubs in every aspect except price. Unfortunately that is not always the case, so someone has to convince the buyers that it is worth spending their money on the official version instead of waiting for the free one. You see? Official releases can have an advantage over “fast and free”. |
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hentai4me
 Posts: 1313 Location: England. Robin is so Cute! |
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You just stole the entire thing online for f*ucking free, you have no right whatsoever to refuse to buy the DVD just because you don't like the dub, it's not got enough extras, its aspect ratio is not your favourite, they butchered it with edits, badly translated it or anything like that at all. You OWE the company the money and you WILL pay it back unless you are truly a no good dirty criminal. Sample the first few eps...fine, even I do that, not the whole thing though. And if you'd read my post thoroughly you'd see that I pointed out some of the more obvious flaws in my 'analysis'. The fact that not all of those shows are available for purchase was one of the major flaws I already pointed out, but I'd say that flaw is happily balanced out by assuming the industry is going strong like this for 20 years, that the annual expenses of a single anime company, excluding staff are in the region of £50,000,000. So by over exaggerating some other factors effects I attempted to reduce the effects of other flaws. Which is why I asked for more evidence from others, not a worthless opinion on the matter. In the business world your opinion means absolutely nothing without something to back it up.
Oh god...not the 'lost sales' argument. Correct me if I am wrong but isn't the gist of this argument 'If I was never going to buy the DVD in the first place the company loses no money if I see it for free. In fact I may be tempted to buy the DVD after seeing it for free so I am actually being turned into a potential sale' What I hear from that is this. 'I don't ever plan to buy the DVDs. So I am now allowed to watch it for free.' What do you suppose will happen if say...100,000 people come to this 'realisation' (no intention to buy = entitled to it for free) let's say they are nice guys and would have bought a DVD every week...that's 520,000 DVD sales that have not been made because people 'realise' no intention to buy = free. Now if loads of people 'realise' no intention to buy = free the companies will see a downturn in sales and a net loss in revenue. Oh wait...isn't that what is happening now anyway? true, potentially the free 'testing' of anime would lead to increased sales. But it seems that the reality is that there is now a downturn in sales...perhaps the old ideas of free online distribution need to be re-thought. Note again I already assume you are a paragon of virtue and you'd never be as calculating as to hide behind the argument 'no intention = free' so don't get all huffy at me.
There is also no evidence that supports the idea that free online distribution of anime leads to increased sales. If the companies with access to infinitely more real data than us aren't allowed to claim that fansubs = lost sales then you, with even less evidence, aren't allowed to claim fansubs = increased/no net change in sales. Funny how the fans opinions are worth more than the companies opinions. The company shares its opinion and it is wrong as it has no evidence (that it is willing to share) and yet when a fan shares their opinion on fansubs it is somehow more valid even though it too lacks evidence. The reality is that anime companies are losing sales and the online fansub community has grown rapidly in both volume of users and the variety of what they offer. The anime companies need to adapt to the changing world around them. Fine. I agree. But why doesn't the online illegal distribution networks have to change? If there is the potential that what they are doing is harming the industry they so love (as obviously fansubbers only share out of love...not some desire for internets) then why wouldn't they want to perhaps change how they work, at least for a while. Say for 1 year every loving fansubber rolled their releases back to the first 5 episodes or 1st OAV or first 10 minutes of a film, etc. Just as a test, if the anime industry did recover some ground in sales and income then...well looks like they were not as innocent as they first assumed. If of course the companies are still in dire straights then it likely had less to do with them and more to do with the companies and their business model. If the companies are unable or unwilling to attempt to find out the true effects of fansubbing and want to make claims and share their opinions on the matter then why don't those oh so loving anime fansubbers do the hard work and restrain themselves for a single year, just to see what happens.
Wow...and on what basis do you believe that? Or is it merely an opinion? Perhaps an opinion skewed to limit the blame that can be placed on fansubbers? I freely admit to my bias against fansubbing a whole series (I do get the first 3 or 4 eps of a series that sounds interesting), do you admit that your opinion itself has no real value at all?
Why not? There is no evidence saying that fansubs hurt, but there is no evidence saying they don't either...well apart from anecdotal crap...you see I know this guy who won a million pounds and he donated it all to ADV UK...awesome anecdote eh?
Errr...I though that they didn't have a sustainable model and that was why they were failing, not because the 100% free, almost instantaneous availability of their product was reducing its value.
They are also doing so illegally making them criminals who do it for free rather than profit. But of course...them being criminals is not an argument against them at all...or you for that matter. Basic bit of common sense and business here. If something is available for free in an easy to access form then the value of that product goes down in the eyes of businesses, the product that the anime companies can sell is of lower value because the same thing is available for free online. Fansubs reduce the value of the official release, yes through their own hard, illegal work but they still do so none the less.
Yeah...they can compete with free. But then all they are doing is offering the exact same product the fansubbers do just for a cost. Now while I am sure some people would be swayed there would still be innumerable people who would still take it for free. Then of course the value of each episode would have to go down as what they offer is worth less than the DVD product so there would be questionable value in doing business that way, DVD sales would definitely drop as now only the collectors would buy them leading to further problems in sales. I will agree that the online distribution idea is great and what I want to see. I wont say that it will solve the problems though... A final point, advertising. People want to move to an entirely free, ad supported online anime distribution model. Who advertises on anime websites or anime DVD's...or at anime conventions. Seriously I am asking you. |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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While I agree with your post, it is important to think it through. From a consumer perspective, then yes, it will be great. I certainly would be willing to sign up to such a service. The stumbling block is making it a reality. The main obstacle is the Japanese creators, and their sponsors.. Do you think that they would put up their work online, so cheaply, for such a pittance? I believe that the main source of revenue a show makes is from television rights (unless it is like Dragonball Z, which has considerable merchandise tie-ins). Now, what is stopping a Japanese fan from accessing this service? They do not have to stay up and watch a show, they get it on their computer, they do not have to listen to ads. The answer is blocking any computer that originates in Japan from accessing the site. Sort of like 2chan, but in reverse. China may have to be included, since some Chinese can watch Japanese television. The next stumbling block is one of control. Assuming that the series that you pay $1.99 for is a download file, what is stopping you from giving that to all your friends? What is preventing people from uploading it as a torrent? A possible answer is one of streaming the video instead of making it available for download. This is unfair, but then a television watcher only has a single chance to view it. It can work, each and every obstacle can be met. So what is stopping such a model from being implemented? Now that is a question of which I have no answer to. |
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Randompeon
Posts: 18 Location: Scotland |
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Either i read that wrong or you just stated that when something shows on TV you only get one chance to see it then, ofcourse you seem to have forgotten that you can easily record that show and watch it as many times as you want. This may seem rather stupid at first but has anyone considered what effect import only fans have on the UK market? Ok so they buy DVD's, however the money from those sales leave the UK market and enters the market of where it was imported from, yes some UK sites do sell imported DVD's but i am talking about those who go to online stores outside of the UK. Lets say the imports come from the US, money leaves UK market and enters US market, US companies like ADV etc don't mind this since they are still making a profit from the US DVD sales, but the UK market drops in sales since those DVD's were bought in the US market and not the UK market, however not once has the whole importer side ever been mentioned in the drop of sales. As i said i have no solid proof stating this as a guarenteed problem, but focusing only on fansubs is arrogant and shortsighted. |
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hentai4me
Posts: 1313 Location: England. Robin is so Cute! |
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And flat out refusing to see fansubs as a big problem despite the fact that companies and individuals with access to real data which they wont share is just as short sighted and idiotic. |
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Randompeon
Posts: 18 Location: Scotland |
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I wish you would reread that line and see what i actually posted here let me repost it in bold for you: but focusing only on fansubs is arrogant and shortsighted. Now at what point in that did i state that fansubs had no effect on the market? oh wait i didn't say that, perhaps if you read it properly instead of jumping down my throat you would see what i actually said. |
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shadowblack
Posts: 37 |
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Yes, I DO have the right to not buy something, even if I have previously seen it for free! If I don't like the product I'm NOT going to buy it, and that's it! I have every right to NOT buy something I DON'T want, just like I have every right to not watch it on TV. Whether I previously watched it for free or not doesn't matter. If they want MY money they have to give me what I want. Saying that I owe someone just because of something I downloaded for free is just as ridiculous as expecting me to buy a book just because I borrowed it from someone and read it for free. Sorry, but the two are NOT related (as much as some people would like them to be).
Everyone's innocent until proved guilty. Fansubbers are no exception. Therefor all who say that fansubs and fansubbers are the main problem of the UK market (or any other market) have to prove that. Those who deny that accusation do not. I have no doubt that the UK market has been hurt by many things, including these two: 1) Fansubs 2) Import from the US But which one has hurt the UK market more? Is it the fansubs, or is it import? Or is it neither, but rather some other reason? |
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samuelp
Industry Insider
Posts: 2238 Location: San Antonio, USA |
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You can't change the attitudes of the consumers very quickly.
You can, on the other hand, change the practices of the fansubbers themselves, to a much greater extent. Ask yourself: Why were fansubs created in the beginning? Because people demanded their anime be provided free? No. In fact, it WASN'T free originally, people had to pay for VHS tape copying services. It was because there was a market for subtitled anime that no legal company was fulfilling. Now, fast forward to the present, and ask the same question: Why are people fansubbing today? The answer here is much more complex. It's partly to satisfy a demand to see the latest shows or episodes. It's partly to satisfy a demand for a free viewing of the shows. It's partly to satisfy a demand for "fancier" subtitling with notes or a different translation style... For those who say a $1.99 download can never compete with free, they are, of course, correct. A consumer when faced with that choice will choose the free option. But would they actually be faced with that choice? What, for a fansubber, is in it for them to sub a show released subbed online only days after the japanese airing? The fact is, no one really knows what would happen if the R2 companies really decided to do near simultaneous online distro subbed releases for reasonable prices and/or ad supported streaming. People would download fansubs if they existed, but I suspect that they would probably not even be created. |
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OneHotAlchemist
Posts: 85 |
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Erm, you DO owe someone. If you enjoy a series, what money are you devoting to the creators to create more series that you might like? If you dislike an regional release, buy the japanese originals, that will support the creators. Furthermore, borrowing a book is different, since the book was actually payed-for. This is like borrowing a photocopy of a book, the original creator sees no monetary gain whatsoever. Show me one media that allows you to sample every episode of a series before you purchase it. Here in the US, Bleach and Naruto were going to be the proof that the whole "I'll download it now and buy it when it gets released" argument is bunk, and they did. |
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