Forum - View topicNEWS: Bandai: Do Not Fansub Ghost in the Shell Film
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HeeroTX
Posts: 2046 Location: Austin, TX |
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At minimum, Japanese companies should include English subtitles on their DVD releases. This will do little for TV shows which are fansubbed right off TV, but for OVAs and movies it just makes fansubbers outright bootleggers, since people who want it faster can just import the Japanese DVD. (yeah, "region code" we all know that's a farce and reverse-importing wouldn't be an issue if region coding had any real power to it) Also, for all the "flowery" language about fansubs being all about pushing a series to get it licensed, let's be honest. Fansubs are about 1 thing, getting to see a show you can't see otherwise. (DVD rips are about outright piracy, but fansubs ARE about getting to see a show that's not available here, which is why when it IS available here, groups stop or are seen as bootleggers) This is why people fansub Sailor Stars. This show needs ZERO help raising it's profile, it needs ZERO proof it will sell. Sailor Moon got MANY girls into anime and was one of the highest profile shows of its time, the only reason to fansub it is because you can't see it otherwise (with translations). Fansubbing has WORKED as a marketting device, but that wasn't really the "intent" per se. In the beginning, fansubs weren't meant to help companies (heck, early on there WEREN'T really any companies, except maybe a group like Streamline who was mostly hated) but they weren't meant to hurt companies either, they were intended to share something mostly unavailable here in the US, nothing more, nothing less. |
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Dernhelm
 Posts: 76 Location: Southeast Asia |
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you failed to state IRC's, i was curious. |
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cz.petab
 Posts: 7 |
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I wonder about your experience with fansub community. Most Europeans (be it Swedish, Finnish, German, Polish, Dutch, Romanian or whoever, btw it's true I ever met only one Swiss fansub fan though) do get English subs. In case you hadn't noticed, English is no longer the language which only UK and its former colonies use, but nowadays it's de facto THE international language, even moreso for people who happen to use the internet.
Ah, here I see you are not very familiar with fansub community, if you had some experience you would know that there are lots fansubs available in other languages, with from what I've seen prevalent ones being (Brasilian) Portuguese and French/Spanish, maybe Italian with some sporadic releases in others. And where did I say I want it in Czech? I do NOT want it in Czech, I'm pretty content with English subs. There are some groups who do Czech translation for dozens of titles, but afaik they cater only to very limited audience - people who can't even understand basic written English (usually very young children).
Mmm, R2 legitimate distribution channels - does it mean you get the dub in your language (French/German/Italian) too with your anime in Switzerland like US americans do ? (Decent) dub in one's native language might be the only significant extra value official release has over fansub. But once again, vast majority of people I talked to is just like me - they prefer original audio, they are not interested in redub, no matter which language (which I guess is the exact opposite of US audience). No idea if Switzerland is same as e.g. Germany - everything gets dubbed or more like Scandinavia - almost everything except little kids stuff gets only subbed. I have a reason for which I do not want to order from abroad. Of course, normal shops don't sell anime here (maybe with the exception of some recent Ghlibli Studio movies) and I haven't been able to find any decent internet shop either. The only one I found offering anime has very limited range of titles, no boxsets, with a price per 4-ep DVD being about 27 EUR. They don't even sell first Ruroken OVA 
Although this price might seem low to a Swiss, it's actually quite a lot of money here. I know it's our/my fault for being poor, but still (Czech Rep entering EU didn't turn us into developed country overnight). Well, I guess situation might be different in other countries, probably depending on their size, level of anime penetration and population's buying power.
I know that pretty well, being native in Czech, forced to learn Russian for 8 years, learning German for a couple of years too. I still prefer original audio with subs no matter which language it is just as I prefer reading the book in the language its author wrote it in, does it seem to be weird to you? Btw. I don't get why I should "know better than most" that there's more languages in world than just English and Japanese just because I live in Czech Rep ? * confused * Too bad the only foreign language I'm at least semiproficient at now is English.  Well, my Japanese seems to get better each month so I hope I will get rid of my dependency on subs for most anime sooner or later * Away to Kanji writing practice *
Last edited by cz.petab on Wed Aug 23, 2006 11:36 am; edited 2 times in total |
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ChrisBeveridge
Posts: 162 |
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The problem with this is that it's still keeping the belief that people will buy something if they can't get it for free. If they cannot get it for free, they will go without. That makes up the bulk (not all) of people who download. Someone should really do an at-door poll at a large convention and ask "Do you download anime" and "do you buy DVDs". Which do you think will be higher? Or would they be the same? If fans who download think R1 releases are too expensive, why would R2 releases suddenly be better? |
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Dargonxtc
 Posts: 4463 Location: Nc5xd7+ スターダストの海洋 |
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Ok, ok I read through page six and I just had to stop. I would just like to say I can't believe there are people out there who are mad at Bandai for standing up for there property.
Bandai: Please stop stealing our stuff. Non-old-school fansubber: Screw you. Bandai: No really, if you do it this time we will call the cops. Non-old-school fansubber: I would like to see you try? Bandai: You know we have ways of tracking you, right? Non-old-school fansubber:  Are you kidding I am an internet genius. I can make it impossible to prove anything. And oh yeah, screw you!
Bandai: Well out of respect for the artists will you stop. Non-old-school fansubber: Hah, you mean the ones whos work you butcher, my fansubs are vastly better than that crap you put out. Bandai: But fansubs support the artists zero. Non-old-school fansubber: Well if you could make your product via a medium in which you made your money solely off of advertising so that the artists gets paid, you get paid and I get it for next to nothing, and released it a week after it was in Japan I might stop. Bandai: Sorry that is just not how the world works. Non-old-school fansubber: Screw you Bandai, screw you! You hear me, let me bend over so you can kiss my Ewok. Screw you! ---------------------------------------------- I don't know what it is, but I really don't do fansubs anymore. I guess it is just me getting old. The one exception lately is The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya, but that was only after it didn't get licensed at AX. I couldn't take it, to much hype, I had too. But you will bet I will buy it when it hits R1, whoever gets it. |
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ladholyman
 Posts: 56 |
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So you still download fansubs. That's great.
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CaliSerenity
 Posts: 36 |
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This thread is a great Wednesday morning read.
I read most of this thread and I really like your post and others along the same lines.
Amidst all controversy with what fansubbing is now, the original foundation of fansubbing was built from the love of anime and from a sincere desire to share this medium to others who couldn't otherwise have access to these shows. That's why I can't really launch into a "down with fansubs" campaign even though I do agree with the anti-fansub arguments I read here. Actually, I agree with the argument that fansubs help promote a title because this theory works on me - I buy the DVDs if I like it, and because I'm an anime fan I tend to like the majority of the stuff I see (same reason why I had to cancel my Netflix subscription 'cause I ended up buying every anime series I rented). But that's because I'm a massive consumer of anime dvds to begin with. The problem is I know there are a lot of people who see fansubs as getting free stuff and don't bother to support the official releases. But you can't control the downloaders and can't really blame them 'cause they really are being given free anime. So my stand on this. . . I agree that fansubbing needs to return to its roots and fansub "ethically" - unlicensed anime only, especially the ones that will most likely never see an official release, and use common sense on steering clear of the mainstream shows. Like others have said, the sheer amount of anime being licensed to a certain degree renders fansubbing almost useless. As much as I would miss the weekly dose of speed-subs coming out of Japan if this were to happen, I know the cons outweigh the pros on this issue because I want the anime industry to be successful and continue supplying me with anime for many years to come.
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HeeroTX
Posts: 2046 Location: Austin, TX |
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I am right there with you, I don't for a SECOND believe that every download is a lost sale. Shoot even if you remove people who DO buy the DVD and just count people who don't I don't think every download is a lost sale. I totally think there are all too many of today's fans who fit the category of "hey, nothing better to do, let's download some anime". These are the people that if you have the Naruto game, they'll play it, some might even really enjoy playing it, but they're not gonna buy it because they're not gonna play it on their own or don't care enough (about the GAME) whether they have it or not. Or like "Mission Impossible III", I had no interest whatsoever in seeing the movie. there's no way I was gonna pay for that movie. When I was on a flight they were playing it, I watched it, I even watched parts a second time for lack of anything better to do. But I still have no interest in buying the movie and had that opportunity not presented itself, I'd have felt no loss for not seeing it. There are lots of people like that today downloading anime, and (IN MY OPINION) that's because in large part those people are not fans they're merely young people with nothing better to do with themselves following the current "fad". Unfortunately for US anime companies, IN MY OPINION that fad has nearly run it's course. I don't think anime is going away, and I think major anime like "Naruto" will still see an audience. But I think the heyday of midtier titles grabbing sales is past. And again, if the Japanese producers would put English subtitles on their releases (which, seriously, would take MINIMAL effort) the US companies could still latch onto a big hit show like a DBZ, Sailor Moon or a Naruto, but midtier shows would probably go unlicensed and could just be marketted specifically to fans of the show. It'd suck for pricing (assuming Japan didn't see an adjustment for "economy of scale" is US buying increases) but the fansub debate becomes entirely moot for OVAs and movies (at least) since anyone subbing those is just an outright bootlegger, no question. |
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sunflower
 Posts: 1080 |
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I'm just a neutral person taking all this in and trying to understand your argument. I never took econ in college so this is new territory for me. Looking up the phrase "saturation market economics" I get the idea that you're saying that: 1. The number of people who will buy the new movie without additional exposure is currently fixed. Because with no theatre release, it will probably only be purchased by current anime fans, and then only fans of the franchise. 2. So in order to make more money, Bandai needs to expand their audience. Fansubbing is a viable and proven way to do this. (It is, after all, how they expanded their audience by at least one, me :)). 3. Not all of those new watchers of the fansub will buy it, but some will, and they will probably purchase more in the future. So Bandai gains, regardless of how many of those new watchers do not purchase the DVD. Is that the gist of what you're saying? The only problem I see there is that the presence of a fansub might decrease #1, thus making any increase to the audience a moot point. Of course, I understand very little of the complexities of financial models, so I may be missing a lot. |
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Dargonxtc
Posts: 4463 Location: Nc5xd7+ スターダストの海洋 |
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Yes but I still carry the old-school mentality. You know the one where the words honor, and respect still mean something 
I am not trying to say everyone is a saint here either, but have some god damn respect. If I watch more than 4 episodes of a title I will buy it, I use my delete button a lot(or used to, like I said I don't do it very much anymore). I had downloaded the first 50 episodes of Bleach, and burned them. I never had to time to watch any of them, then it got licensed. Guess where the disks are? The city dump, unwatched. There is a big difference between the way I see and do things, then say the way Pleroma sees and does things. Fansubs exsist because of the fans, and there inabilitly to speak Japanese, when it becomes possible to legally obtain copies in which you can understand fansubs should stop. So don't give me that holier than thou crap ok. The type of person I was talking about was very specific, and if you can't see that you need to think more and read less. |
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jsevakis
Former ANN Editor in Chief
 Posts: 1684 Location: Los Angeles, CA |
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I realize that's not a valid way of calculating lost sales, at least not as far as physical media sales go. I give leeway for that. However, when the patterns happen consistently, it becomes hard to argue that there is no affect -- which was the point I was trying to make. But you're absolutely right that it's not a straight "download = lost sale" scenario.
You make an interesting point here. There is no doubt that market saturation with sub-par product has resulted in increasingly wary consumers. It has long been a problem in the anime industry that there is really no good way to try most series before making the investment in a DVD. This is something that sorely needs correcting, and with the amount of attention being paid these days to things like Toonami Jetstream and television broadcast, it seems the companies are quite aware of the problem. What has happened is that the "fringe" fans who make up a good 70% of the market -- the ones who have never heard of ANN, don't go to cons, and don't think much more about anime than a TV fan thinks about most series they like. For their anime, they just occasionally stop by the anime isle in Best Buy and watch Adult Swim -- but they've been burned so many times by blind-buying a series that they now only buy what they can see on TV. Unfortunately, only the borderline-mainstream, primarily A-list anime (with male protagonists) even gets on Cartoon Network, which is the one place everyone knows to go for anime. So that's all that sells. THOSE sales are still decent, as a good number of these fans don't download fansubs. Examples of these series are Cowboy Bebop and Trigun. But bear in mind that these series cost a FORTUNE to license, and even some of the ones we perceve as hits may never even come close to being profitable. Where the big hole is now is in the remaining 30% of anime fandom that used to buy everything else. These are the fans that used to buy stuff like Yakitate Japan or Club-To-Death Angel (to use unlicensed examples). Close to 90% of this group downloads anime. They do stuff like go to cons, write fanfics, cosplay, and do traditional "otaku" things. But they used to buy so much anime that this used to support, more or less, the entire industry. THIS is where the big erosion has taken place. I would venture to say that less than half of this group still buys DVD's, and even among those that do, they're buying less. There's simply less urgency to do so. In the earlier days, this group would buy EVERYTHING and NOW -- for fear that it wouldn't be available again. Now that anime is more or less a commodity -- as are DVD's in general -- there's less collectability to it. Used DVD's used to go for almost retail price on eBay. Now they're lucky to make more than $5. New DVD prices have dropped as well. So, yes, there are many factors at work here, and the anime marketplace is well aware of all of them. They truly want to fix these problems, and are caught in a quagmire of red tape and differing views of how to do business. This is also a problem not just relegated to the anime industry -- the entire entertainment world is living in fear right now, because what used to work doesn't anymore. But because anime fans are bigger tech consumers, what happens here in Otaku Country happens a good 3-4 years before it happens to the rest of the entertainment world. Unfortunately, the anime industry is well behind the big entertainment companies in preparing for the world of digital media. So they're getting their lunch eaten by piracy that fills the void in the market caused by the current methods of delivery. Any moves by Bandai Entertainment and other anime companies to plug the holes of their leeky ship are essential right now to their continued survival. But I think everyone agrees that they need a new ship. Last edited by jsevakis on Wed Aug 23, 2006 12:31 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Area88
 Posts: 374 |
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I really hope Bandai isn't bluffing and they genuinelly will act against the pirates that are currently distributing their licensed content around the web.
I've contacted them in the past via email about various sites distributing their licensed material and i get the usual statement 'we take piracy very seriously and will forward this to the appropriate appartment'. Only 12 months later to find out Bandai Entertainment still havn't acted against the sites i provided details for. It's partly their fault for not acting at all while letting the distribution of fansubs and dvd rips spiral out of control. PLEASE BANDAI DO SOMETHING! |
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SirWence
 Posts: 107 Location: North of Boston, MA |
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Yes I agree ^ BANDAI DO SOMETHING!! about you overall slow and glitchly releases .. give me some real quality and please stop attempting to broke me in the process. I have no problems period with the fansubbers I wish them luck... and Bandai luck with attempting to stop them.
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soumarukaji
Posts: 7 |
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I agree with bandai as well. in fact, if i find any websites seeding the show, i'll not only post it here, but i'll also email the site to bandai themselves. it's about time we fans started to truly support anime in america and stopped lowering sales because of fansubs. Too often i've heard people say that because they have an entire series in mpeg or whatever that they find no reason to spend money on it. I say not only bandai, but other companies should do the same, and i'll help any way i can.
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garry
Former ANN Editor
 Posts: 120 |
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Justin,
What's the general feel among the professionals? Are we talking total industry armageddon if piracy remains at its current (untenable) proportions? I'm pretty pessimistic about the whole situation, but it'd be nice to have hint what the big boys are thinking. I know you can't name names or get into any level of specificity, but can you hook an old-school-brotha up? (C'mon, I was posting here when the Hoo-Ha of the month was still a feature. Please? You know you wanna.) What mystifies me is where this new generation of pirate thinks the money's going to come from. A lot of good questions are being asked and ignored regarding the economics of the matter. Are they all functioning under the belief that Toei can will 10000-yen notes into being; that their Taiwanese Hagaren messanger bags will somehow finance an eternity of free entertainment? |
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