Forum - View topicNEWS: Kishimoto: Naruto Invokes His Childhood, Breaks Shōnen Formula
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Ambimunch
 Posts: 2012 |
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Yup Talk no Jutsu may be more powerful than super saiyans, that I learned over the years |
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Gasero
 Posts: 939 Location: USA |
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I think it is bold to say that manga did not use strategy before Naruto.
I watched a good portion of Jojo's Bizarre Adventure and a lot of those battles used strategy even when characters seemed overpowered. |
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MasterKingJC
 Posts: 380 |
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Sorry, Kishi, but shonen manga that predate Naruto have already touched upon that stuff and broke the "formula" (JoJo, Yu Yu Hakusho, Rorouni Kenshin)
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Anton Chigurh
 Posts: 257 Location: Guam |
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Did NARUTO do anything that YU YU HAKUSHO hadn't already done - and better?
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leafy sea dragon
 Posts: 7163 Location: Another Kingdom |
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Yu Yu Hakusho did not have one central grand conflict the way Naruto did. It also had a worse ending. (The manga, at least.) And if we're talking about the authors themselves, Masashi Kishimoto is able to meet deadlines much better than Yoshihiro Togashi can.
I would consider Yu Yu Hakusho the superior manga though.
As mentioned before, shonen before that, for the most part, was a clear cut good vs. evil conflict. This is true in Dragon Ball, Yu Yu Hakusho, the earlier parts of Jojo's Bizarre Adventure, and so forth. The villains may have sometimes been developed as characters, but they tended to have unsympathetic and/or purely selfish motivations. In addition, story arcs were predominantly self-contained, with one arc coming to a conclusion (albeit with hanging threads), whereas in Naruto, each arc directly triggered the next. These were not a series of unrelated conflicts, but one big one that peeled itself back like an onion as the series went on. A lot of the magazine before Naruto was comedy works--for better or for worse, action-comedy hybrids like Naruto and One Piece hit Weekly Shonen Jump like a train, and the magazine has become far more action-oriented from then on (and I'd count sports manga as action), with stuff like Kochikame being something more of a vestige. That aside, breaking formula does not necessarily make a story better. Just go to any film festival and watch one of those subversive productions that choose to break formula for the sake of breaking formula. They're rarely any good. |
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ChocoBar1
Posts: 49 |
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None of those titles broke formulas in fact Jojo (when it started) and YYH were incredibly derivative |
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bigivel
 Posts: 536 |
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I totally disagree!! Stuff like Kochikame isn't a vestige nor something similar. And no, the magazine in general didn't became more action-oriented, and certainly not after Naruto and One Piece. The magazine genres proportions in the magazine were, with exception of some exceptional years, always around this: 1st- Action(Battle) -> With around 6 series in a given time. 2nd- Comedy -> Around 4 series. 3rd- Sport -> Around 3 series. 4th- Romance Comedy(RomCom) -> Around 1 series. 5th- Other -> mostly none, but sometimes 1 series. This has been since before Dr Slump, 1st title of Akira Toriyama creator of Dragon Ball, and still today. I don't know if you know, but Toriyama was mainly a comedy manga author and due to the predominance and increased popularity of Action manga in the magazine at the time his Editor was able to convince him to make an Action manga enabling the creation of Dragon Ball. Also, are you trying to say that Naruto and One Piece are one of the first action-comedy hybrids in the magazine? Because Dragon Ball started like that and that was in 1984, City Hunter is also like that and is from 1985, Kinnikuman(Ultimate Muscle) is the epitome of Action Comedy hybrid and started in 1979. The fact that there are a lot of hybrids with comedy in the magazine is because Comedy is a big factor for the magazine. Examples of Times of the magazine and his titles: When Dragon Ball started, the magazine had 15 titles with 11 stable: Action -> 5(Hokuto no Ken, Kinnikuman, Wigman, Black Angels, Nagareboshi Gin) Comedy -> 3(Kimengumi, Kochikame, Shape Up Ran) Sport -> 2(Captain Tsubasa, Yoroshiku Mechadock) RomCom -> 1(Kimagure Orange Road) When Naruto started, the magazine had 19 titles with 15 stable: Action -> 5(One Piece, Hunter x Hunter, Rurouni Kenshin, Hoshin Engi, Shaman King) Sport -> 5(Hikaru no Go, Rising Impact, Prince of Tennis, Whistle!, Rookies) Comedy -> 4(Leader Den Takeshi!, Kochikame, Hanasaka Tenshi Tenten-kun, Meiryoutei Gotou Seijuurou) RomCom -> 1(I''s) (NOTE: There was a exceptional period of 5 years, from 1999 to 2003, where the Magazine seen is biggest number of popular sport series. 5 series, surpassing the number of comedy titles except at 2001-2002, where it was the same.) Currently(Still counting Naruto), the magazine has 20 titles with 15 stable titles: Action -> 6(One Piece, Naruto, Bleach, Toriko, World Trigger, Boku no Hero Academia) Comedy -> 5(Assassination Classroom, Gintama, Kochikame, PSI Kusuo Saiki, Isobe Isobee Monogatari) Sport -> 2(Haikyuu!!, Hinomaru Zumou) RomCom -> 1(Nisekoi) Other(Cooking)-> 1(Shokugeki no Souma) |
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MasterKingJC
Posts: 380 |
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Can you name any Jump manga before JoJo that had the main protagonist consecutively change after every part in the story? It's also one of the first popular manga set in the real world where none of the main characters were Japanese or of Japanese descent. Yu Yu Hakusho had the main character die in the first chapter. I can't think of any Jump manga before that time that would pull such a stunt. |
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leafy sea dragon
Posts: 7163 Location: Another Kingdom |
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Wow, I'm pretty impressed that you went and counted the manga by genre. I must admit I'm not familiar with every Jump title and I know the titles based on what catches on in the west. As the comedy titles rarely catch on internationally, but I hear older fans still talking about Dr. Slump and Kochikame, I always had the impression comedy series diminished a bunch starting around the late 90's. I did not know some of those series currently in WSJ are comedies, as nobody ever seems to talk about them (except for Assassination Classroom, which I didn't know was a comedy, and Gintama, which gets overshadowed by every single current action series you mentioned currently in the magazine by the western fans I've hung out with). Touché. |
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Kreion
Posts: 332 |
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There have always been comedy series in Jump, one of the most notable was probably Beelzebub which was more a comedy than an action series in the same way that Gintama is a comedy at its core. AssClass is, as you said, very notable for being a comedy too - but like all good comedy series has some semblance of a plot. I wouldn't say that Naruto broke the shounen formula...even at the time there were similar series around. I suppose the whole starting young into time skip thing was interesting? But I can't think of much in it (that I know of) which is unique to the manga, but I can say the same thing about other long running series like Bleach and D.Gray man. The latter stands out more because of its art style and use of symbolism than the plot or characters. I think Naruto was arguably a more cohesive shounen than we had gotten before - it wrapped everything together and had a more concrete timeline where other series has more random timeskips. |
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enurtsol
 Posts: 14813 |
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Maybe Naruto broke the shounen mold in the ending - the main boys are the ones who got shafted vs. the girls!
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vanfanel
 Posts: 1251 |
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Except that in the linked article, Kishimoto never says that he "broke new ground." Here's the closest thing that he said to that:
Breaking a taboo is not the same as "breaking new ground." New ground can only be broken once. A taboo has to be broken again and again before it goes away. Is there a taboo about ending a battle through dialogue? All of the "talk no jutsu" whining out in the fandom sounds like a resounding YES! to me. |
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AiddonValentine
Posts: 2252 |
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God, the Talk no Jutsu has so many problems it's not even funny. Kishimoto clearly KNOWS about writing complex, conflicted, and tragic antagonists, but he does not know how to write them competently himself. Nearly every villain he has written has been an unrepentant monster who gleefully slaughters people with abandon or cold detachment. You CANNOT then do something to try and make them sympathetic. All it does is lead to some serious whiplash and confusion. The villains that were the most competently done were Deidara, Sasori, Kakuzu, and Hidan. Why? Because they were consistent. They were clearly written from start to finish and they did not have some cheesy "tragedy" tacked onto them at the last minute. It's pretty bad when the guys who are clearly pure evil are more interesting and memorable than the guys who are supposed to be "sympathetic." |
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Gasero
Posts: 939 Location: USA |
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I will give Kishimoto credit for building a conflict that had multiple layers all the way until the end. That was impressive considering the length of time the manga was in publication.
However, the execution was poor and all he really did was use the multiple layers as an excuse to make villains sympathetic. Each time a villain was defeated the audience was to believe that it wasn't really that villain's fault and that there was an even greater evil in control. It got annoying. |
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ChocoBar1
Posts: 49 |
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First part two parts of Jojo were blatant ripoffs of FotNS, it didn't become it's own thing until Part 3. You're just using that as an excuse to ignore the concept of each storyline not being original.
Romance of the Three Kingdoms as well as a plethora of other titles did this already and they predate Jojo by over 2 two decades. You need to broaden your own knowledge.
You're a [awesome cool person]. The manga deals with spiritual aspects and takes place in the after life , him being dead is the entire step-up not some brave move that breaks a formula (considering nobody has taken anything from YYH after it finished) [Mod Edit: Argue your points all you wish, but personal attacks and insults are not allowed. - Keonyn] |
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