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Quote:

So you are saying that Iberian Spanish speakers will object to subtitles written in a general Panamerican Spanish style, and so they will stick to fansubs instead, which are worse.

And he is correct. In Spain most of the anime distributors closed years ago (theres one publishing Ghibli and Selecta-Visión, who i think are doing a fine job), even if it costs only 5€ / month, almost nobody will pay a cent if they are only going to get a translation similar to the one made in latin american fansubs. For that, they'll think that paying for such a poor effort is not worth it and stick to fansubs.

When manga publisher IVREA started in Spain, they had to hire people for re-translating things into Castillian. Using their own latin translations was unthinkable here.

I'm out of the equation... i manage well with english subtitles so i will probably enjoy the service.

agila61 wrote:

Is Mozambican and Angolan Portuguese closer to the Iberian Portuguese or closer to Portuguese Brasileiro?

According to wikipedia: "Standard European Portuguese is also the preferred standard by the Portuguese-speaking African countries. As such, and despite the fact that its speakers are dispersed around the world, Portuguese has only two dialects used for learning: the European and the Brazilian."

So, basicly, there's only those 2 dialects, the brazilian one being majorly used in Brazil and by people who choose to learn it (which is actually easier than Portugal's portuguese, in my experience). Though they are majorly similar there are some vocabulary and gramatical differences. For instante, many brazilians have trouble understanding our portuguese.

tonk82 wrote:

Quote:

So you are saying that Iberian Spanish speakers will object to subtitles written in a general Panamerican Spanish style, and so they will stick to fansubs instead, which are worse.

And he is correct. In Spain most of the anime distributors closed years ago (theres one publishing Ghibli and Selecta-Visión, who i think are doing a fine job), even if it costs only 5€ / month, almost nobody will pay a cent if they are only going to get a translation similar to the one made in latin american fansubs. For that, they'll think that paying for such a poor effort is not worth it and stick to fansubs.

When manga publisher IVREA started in Spain, they had to hire people for re-translating things into Castillian. Using their own latin translations was unthinkable here.

I'm out of the equation... i manage well with english subtitles so i will probably enjoy the service.

Don't forget about Anime Project! They're still alive and may bring us the Fate/ZERO anime, as well as the Kara no Kyoukai movies!

Yep, I can attest very, very few Portuguese users will want to watch the Brazilian subs, but I didn't have a clue Spanish also had that many differences! In Portugal, we used to have quite a few Iberian Spanish-dubbed anime on TV (subtitled), so I naturally prefer the Spanish accent, but I thought other than that the only major differences were the whole "tú" vs. "vos" and some vocabulary.

Brazilian and European Portuguese are very different in almost every context. The way people informally address one another is different ("tu" vs. "você"), there's lots of grammar discrepancies, we use different terms for many daily usage words, and even the orthography has some differences. The accents are so different, I think the average non-Portuguese speaker in the world wouldn't even realize it's the same "core" language, and many Brazilian people can't even understand us speaking (Portuguese shows are dubbed for Brazilian TV, though the reverse never happens).

agila61 wrote:

chronos02 wrote:

Regarding fansubs, just go check WZF and many others, they don't care at all about grammar. Official translations and subtitles are fine, but not fansubs (there must be some that do it correctly, but from the thousands of episodes I've seen subbed in Latin Spanish, just a very, very few didn't have grammar and spelling errors).

So you are saying that Iberian Spanish speakers will object to subtitles written in a general Panamerican Spanish style, and so they will stick to fansubs instead, which are worse.

Yeah, that sounds like anime fans. Always with the rationalizations and unrealistic expectations.

Ser3n wrote:

I can understand chronos02. I'm portuguese and I gotta say people here don't like reading subs in brazilian portuguese. Instead we prefer to read it in english, if those are our only 2 options. So yes, if they do it like that they won't be able to penetrate our market either.

I don't have anything against brazilians - that is not the issue here. I'm sure they don't enjoy reading stuff in our portuguese.

Though I bet CR's subs are gonna be in brazilian portuguese - don't see them translating it for our portuguese, since it's used by far fewer people =P

Yes, I'd bet quite long odds it will be the same PT-BR that are already used.

Those that prefer the English will, of course, have that option. That is already built into the basic site design, just switch the language to English and you'll get the (American) English subtitles.

Is Mozambican and Angolan Portuguese closer to the Iberian Portuguese or closer to Portuguese Brasileiro?

(Bold and italics added by me for emphasis. I'm going to refer to each line in a different paragraph below.)

That has little if no correlation to anime fans. I understand the Spanish people's point of view very well—since the same happens with us—reading a language that so closely resembles our native one but has so many differences automatically triggers something in us that's akin to the feeling of, say, an English speaker reading something in English that's full of misspellings and uses obscure vocabulary and grammatical constructions: it gets too distracting.

Yeah, Crunchyroll's Portuguese admin has said that for now subs will remain in Brazilian Portuguese only. He said the publishers still hadn't confirmed if (and when) the European Portuguese subtitling would begin. The process Crunchyroll uses to change the sub language is somewhat hidden, though, so I fear that might affect them negatively.

Yes. The differences between African and European Portuguese don't go far beyond small vocabulary changes, but usually there are only two recognized variants anyway: the Brazilian one (for Brazil) and the European one (for everywhere else). But I sincerely doubt Crunchyroll will take any kind of action regarding Africa, because I assume that's not one of their priorities. The European variant is more widespread, but in terms of paying customers, they're going to have a lot more luck with the Brazilian one, in case they could only offer a single one. In any case, the average Portuguese anime fan can handle English subs perfectly fine, and I've actually read some people saying they prefer watching anime in English than in any kind of Portuguese.

tonk82 wrote:

Quote:

So you are saying that Iberian Spanish speakers will object to subtitles written in a general Panamerican Spanish style, and so they will stick to fansubs instead, which are worse.

And he is correct. In Spain most of the anime distributors closed years ago (theres one publishing Ghibli and Selecta-Visión, who i think are doing a fine job), even if it costs only 5€ / month, almost nobody will pay a cent if they are only going to get a translation similar to the one made in latin american fansubs. For that, they'll think that paying for such a poor effort is not worth it and stick to fansubs.

Though going on his description of the state of Spanish language fansubs, its not about paying for something equivalent to fansubs, its about paying for something superior to fansubs.

This seems a substantial risk to be a chicken and an egg situation, since if the existing Spanish language subs are going to lead to Spaniards not subscribing, the lack of Spaniards subscribing will then likely mean the present low rate of licensing rights for Spain will continue.

Sukigu wrote:

Yes. The differences between African and European Portuguese don't go far beyond small vocabulary changes, but usually there are only two recognized variants anyway: the Brazilian one (for Brazil) and the European one (for everywhere else). But I sincerely doubt Crunchyroll will take any kind of action regarding Africa, because I assume that's not one of their priorities.

I didn't ask because I thought Crunchyroll either would or should put an emphasis on Sub-Saharan Africa. Crunchyroll does get a majority of simulcasts licensed for South Africa, but then South Africa is a bit of a special case, being in DVD region 2 along with Europe and the Middle East, rather than Region 5 with most of Sub-Saharan Africa, and being included as one of the seven "English Speaking Countries" in general English Speaking Country licenses.

Its just at various times, both in the US and Oz, I've been in regular contact with African students studying overseas, which have sometimes included Mozambican and Angolan students, and I was curious whether it was a distinctive idiom, like West African French, or fairly close to the metropole, like Congolese French, since my impression was it was different from the Portuguese of Brasil.

Quote:

The European variant is more widespread, but in terms of paying customers, they're going to have a lot more luck with the Brazilian one, in case they could only offer a single one. In any case, the average Portuguese anime fan can handle English subs perfectly fine, and I've actually read some people saying they prefer watching anime in English than in any kind of Portuguese.

It seems like they would be well advised to put a bright spotlight on the freedom of both free and subscribing members to set their language of preference. It sounds like the subscriber base would be very much like the Nordic subscriber base, who rely on the English subtitles.

I should add that the definition of "widespread" I used in my post was not the best one. I was referring to the number of countries that use European Portuguese as their official language. Brazilian Portuguese has more speakers than the European variant, and I believe the majority of foreign people who learn Portuguese are taught the Brazilian one.

That's a very good idea, which I actually also got after writing my previous post. I am now composing a text I might post on Crunchyroll's premium member forum so that I can offer them some feedback on this Iberian launch. Smile

So it all comes down to "Anime does not succeed in Spain because Iberian Spanish people can't stand minor vocabulary variations from PanAmerican Spanish" Genius.

I'm not even going to try to speak for all the Latin American community, but from my personal point of view, when a medium is so limited, like Anime is in our countries, I'll take whatever's available. I'm watched tons of Iberian-Spanish fansubbed anime and aside from noticing particular expressions, I don't really mind. Heck, I even watched Gungrave Iberian-dubbed, but the show is too good by itself to be bothered by the Iberian accent. I find it hard to grasp that Spanish fans are able to just reject the opportunity of getting high quality and legal anime media just because the subs -CR barely dubs anything at all- are not in your favorite regionalism

chronos02 wrote:

You clearly didn't read attentively what I wrote... I never said you guys don't know your own language, are rude and wrong; if you read what I wrote word by word instead of reading an implied meaning which is not there, you will clearly see that what I mean is that Spanish companies take in Latin Spanish speakers because they pay them much less than Spanish ones; being both languages different the translations they do don't look correct to Spanish folk, and customers aren't satisfied.

Again, no, of course you never said any of that.

chronos02 wrote:

I just hope they do translations from Japanese to Spanish and not be stupid like many other companies that just imported the Latin Spanish subtitles and/or dubs to Spain, if they do this, they're going to die here. Spanish people don't like Lating Spanish at all, and at some points they hate it, and more so with anime and manga, where Latin Spanish speakers have been extremely rude (in general terms, obviously) to the Spanish community in forums, conventions, etc. And on the other hand, Spanish people don't like Latin Spanish fansubs at all, to they point of hate and going as far as taking fansubs of other languages they don't understand much just to avoid them (not to mention they do subs horribly, full of grammatical, spelling and word-meaning errors.

Spain is also a country specially sensible to quality, and if releases don't meet their standards, they just go to fansubs (talking about anime here). Not to mention, they pirate quite a lot even if titles are licensed in there (they are not sensible to downloading licensed material without permission, though this, mysteriously, doesn't apply a lot to anime, though, as I said just now, if their quality standards are not met, they do so).

I foresee a dark future for Crunchyroll in Spain.

PS: I'm from Spain, and if it weren't for fansubs, I wouldn't be spending 200-300$ each month on Japanese releases, because Spanish releases suck, a lot. Though Madoka's release was mysteriously good, so I bought it, and Aniplex is also importing the Japanese Madoka Movie BD versions here, with a booklet in Spanish and subs in Spanish (from Spain, not Latin America, hopefully, as they usually get cheap translators, aka Latin Spanish translators...).

chronos02 wrote:

I just hope they do translations from Japanese to Spanish and not be stupid like many other companies that just imported the Latin Spanish subtitles and/or dubs to Spain, if they do this, they're going to die here.

Of course, whether its smart or stupid is more than a matter of ow much Spaniards dislike it ... if its costs $X to resubtitle in Castilian, $Y to redub in Castilian, and $Z is lost if you don't, then it is smart to leave it entirely in generic Panamerican subtitles and the Latin American idiom of wherever it was originally dubbed if $Z is less than $Y and less than $Y ... and it is smart to resub it but not redub it if $Z is more than $X but less than $Y.

It could be worth Crunchyroll's time to subtitle new simulcasts in Castilian, but its would almost certainly be stupid of Crunchyroll to resub catalog titles.

Quote:

Spanish people don't like Latin Spanish at all, and at some points they hate it, and more so with anime and manga, where Latin Spanish speakers have been extremely rude (in general terms, obviously) to the Spanish community in forums, conventions, etc.

One wonders why?

Quote:

And on the other hand, Spanish people don't like Latin Spanish fansubs at all, to they point of hate and going as far as taking fansubs of other languages they don't understand much just to avoid them (not to mention they do subs horribly, full of grammatical, spelling and word-meaning errors.

Aha, so this suggests that Spaniards are also rude to Latin Americans in forums, conventions, etc.

it would seem that one of the most important thing is to make sure that the Iberian site forums are distinct from the Latin American forums already on the site, to avoid this kind of pointless argument.

@CrowLia:

Can you please try reading the context? I'm referring to Latin Spanish speakers who interact with Spanish speakers in forums, conventions, etc. I am not referring to the general population in the Latin Spanish countries. And the errors in spelling, grammar, etc. I mention is exclusive to fansubs. They focus on speed and availability over the correct use of their language, which is fine, but we from the peninsula can't stand errors in the writing, more so if the Spanish variant is not ours, which makes it exceptionally difficult to understand and read. Combine that the fact that most, if not all, of the Latin Spanish fansubs translate from English translations available from fast-subs, making it all even worse.

The quality I talked about in the bold text you highlighted was referred to the quality of the Spanish physical releases, which in most cases, since 10 years ago, has been declining more and more (and they use Spanish translators, but the dubs suck, they don't check for errors and there is no quality check in the process).

Lastly, by cheap translators, again, stop trying to read implied meanings which are not there and try focusing on the context. I am obviously stating a fact, in Spain, cheap translators are the ones coming from Latin Spanish countries; this does not mean their translations are bad, but they are not Iberian Spanish translations. I did not use the word "cheap" to imply the other meaning of "cheap" which is related to bad quality here, but to express that they are cheap in economical terms, they are paid less because Iberian Spanish translators are very expensive, while Latin Spanish translators flood the market.

@agila61:

Well, if it's a matter of costs, they'd still better invest on getting Iberian Spanish translations, as keeping the licences, permits and paying taxes in Spain would kill off their business here if they used the Latin Spanish translations. Spanish customers would not take the service at all, or at least not many native Iberian Spanish anime fans would, there are some Latin Spanish anime fans in Spain too and those would probably subscribe, but most of them are leaving Spain for their home countries because there is no more work here. Anyway, if they don't use Iberian Spanish subtitles, they will most probably flunk or get extremely low profits, barely covering costs, because the income they'll get will be extremely low, even if their costs aren't high by using "synergies" in terms of translation, using the already available Latin Spanish one.

On the other hand, they may be able to get some nice profits if they make a translation from the ground up to Iberian Spanish. Though their costs will be higher, their income will also be higher, making the whole ratio either 1 (covering costs) or over 1 (making profits). There is also the chance the ratio will be slightly lower than 1, but I doubt that, seeing as there are near to 400k potential customers that would gladly pay 5 to 8€ each month for all the anime they can see.

The rude part comes from the fact in every single Iberian Spanish fansub forum, anime community forum, and event forum I have been at, Latin Spanish members that have knowingly or unknowingly joined them, have only stirred up trouble. Either asking repeatedly for the episodes to be released, repeatedly saying Spanish translations and dubs are horrible and completely inferior to Latin Spanish ones, and essentially disrespecting the community that has openly welcomed them. This has come to the point where Latin Spanish speakers on the forums have been labelled "hoygans" (as a derogatory term originated from their nerve of joining a community and their first posts being "hoygan, keremos el episodio gratix ya!", or "este doblaje no vale un chavo", etc.) by all the Iberian Spanish communities.

From personal experience I haven't seen a single Spanish seriously insulting a dub, sub, translation, etc. in a serious way (there have always been those who did so just to get a reaction from the Latinos though). Not in forums, not in conventions. On the other hand, Latin Spanish speakers are surprisingly easy to lose their temper, and jokes have triggered aggressive reactions from them.

This reminds me of the horrible discussion that once happened in an anime convention regarding the dub for "The Simpsons". Latin Spanish assistants to the event immediately pointed out their superior dub in the series after some minutes in the conversation, and at some point a Spanish assistant pointed out that the Iberian Spanish dub won some sort of award in the US for being the best dub among all the available ones (supposedly proving so by providing solid proof), at that point the Latin Spanish assistants took a seriously aggressive behavior towards the rest of the assistants in the conversation, to the point of insulting them... I do know that a single case is not enough to judge a community and/or a country, but this is not an isolated case unfortunately.

And definitely yes, a VERY clear distinction should be made in the forums for people to distinguish between the Latin Spanish subforums and the Iberian Spanish subforums.

PS: If someone wonders why I'm saying all this, why I talk as if I knew, it's because of my final project in marketing and entrepreneurship, I've done a very deep study in all this, questioning over 10,000 people in Iberian Spanish conventions asking them a very complete set of questions, and the results are what I've been explaining all along. If you wonder what the project was about, it's a platform similar to CR but only aimed at Spain, but with a fundamentally different internal structure.

Quote:

The rude part comes from the fact in every single Iberian Spanish fansub forum, anime community forum, and event forum I have been at, Latin Spanish members that have knowingly or unknowingly joined them, have only stirred up trouble. Either asking repeatedly for the episodes to be released, repeatedly saying Spanish translations and dubs are horrible and completely inferior to Latin Spanish ones, and essentially disrespecting the community that has openly welcomed them.

Oh, so you mean exactly what you've been saying about Latino subbed and dubbed productions compared to Spanish ones through all this thread?

Quote:

This has come to the point where Latin Spanish speakers on the forums have been labelled "hoygans" (as a derogatory term originated from their nerve of joining a community and their first posts being "hoygan, keremos el episodio gratix ya!", or "este doblaje no vale un chavo", etc.) by all the Iberian Spanish communities.

Thanks for the casual racism that you're clearly not using here. It's adorable.

(for English speakers, every word in the bolded sentence is misspelled. But of course, chronos02 has never said that we can't write our own language or whatever, right?)

Quote:

And definitely yes, a VERY clear distinction should be made in the forums for people to distinguish between the Latin Spanish subforums and the Iberian Spanish subforums.

I find it extremely sad that a division should be needed between two countries that essentially speak the same language just because some people can't get over their absurd prejudices. What, do we make a different forum for each LA country? Everyone hates Argentinians, anyway [joke]. Heck, let's do a different one for every region in Mexico, everyone knows people from Monterrey hate the guts out of Mexico City's people [not a joke]

Yup, chronos02 is the best example of "my neighborhood's speak is not quite reflected in this official subtitle, so I'd stick with fansubs".

And then says I am trolling. Kettle calling pot...

Or, as we use to say: mira quién habla.

Really CrowLia, you are seeing things that are not even there... and it's making less sense on every try you are making...

Does the fact they said that imply I say it's the other way round? Obviously not, stop being so paranoid...

What I've been saying in all this thread is: Spanish people don't like Latin Spanish translations, so they must not be used. I never, ever said the Latin Spanish variant of Spanish is inferior to the Iberian Spanish variant, not the Iberian Spanish is superior in any way to the Latin Spanish variant.

And yup, what I wrote there is directly extracted of what that person wrote, and many others have. If many Iberian Spanish people use it in forums as is is only because it was like that and it's what makes it funny. It is not casual racism... if you see it as racism it's like considering that we, Iberian Spanish, are disgusting because we eat coagulated pig blood inside the intestines of pigs mixed with meat and pinions. Just because some do it and we point it out doesn't mean everyone does it or it was a racist call.

And it's not like you can't write your own language lol, I clearly said that comment was referring to fansubs, that center on speed of release to get things done fast, without a care in the world on how they do it, because it's not their focus. If you paid attention, before that, I also mentioned not all Latin Spanish fansubs do that and some do things correctly, but that they do not appeal at all to Iberian Spanish people.

And kgw, stop putting words I never said in my own mouth. As other users pointed out before, Latin Spanish and Iberian Spanish are not the same, they are 500 years apart in cultural language progression and evolution. If you don't care about these things, good for you, you'll be able to fully enjoy CR in Spain even if they end up suing the Latin Spanish translations. But many like me, which are not just a few people but a great deal of the market, will not enjoy it and will just not subscribe, just as we do not buy manga from companies that bring over the Latin Spanish translation with or without slight alterations aimed to cater the Iberian Spanish market. Just take a look at Locomotion, a TV channel that emitted only anime, and not just any anime, but stuff like Slayers, Dragon Ball, etc. well, they did so with the Latin Spanish subtitles and/or dubs. In less than two years they had to close down.
And my neighborhood's slang is non-existent as we use what's called the neutral Spanish here in Spain, the one in the News, so I've never had a problem with any single variant of Spanish in the whole peninsula, except for the one talked by people in the south, which I just can't understand. I don't care which they use on TV either, the grammar, morphology and syntax are the same all over Spain, only the vocabulary has differences, as well as some spelling. Latin Spanish, on the other hand, is completely different. I explained so before and even gave a simple example. If even with that you consider my reasoning null, I wonder what sense does it make to make completely different translations and dubs between the USA and the UK.

Yeah...whatever. Just let your hate for Latin Spanish kill whatever possibilities the Anime industry may have in Spain. Have fun. Not even bothering with you since you're being completely blind to what you yourself are saying and I have no life on me to be quoting and requoting every thing you say since you refuse to see your prejudices reflected in your speech.

Just one thing;

Quote:

if you see it as racism it's like considering that we, Iberian Spanish, are disgusting because we eat coagulated pig blood inside the intestines of pigs mixed with meat and pinions.

What the fudge does this have to do with anything? If I think Spanish food is disgusting, that's the same level of racism as you saying Latin Spanish language is wrong and subpar and that Latin Americans all write like idiots?

PS: I love "moronga" and "quesadilla de sesos". Look it up and don't bring up shit that's nothing to do with anything at all

This conversation is making the inner linguistics nerd in me happy.

Though this dialect war in incredibly stupid. It's like watching fights over British and American English.

CrowLia wrote:

Yeah...whatever. Just let your hate for Latin Spanish kill whatever possibilities the Anime industry may have in Spain. Have fun. Not even bothering with you since you're being completely blind to what you yourself are saying and I have no life on me to be quoting and requoting every thing you say since you refuse to see your prejudices reflected in your speech.

Just one thing;

Quote:

if you see it as racism it's like considering that we, Iberian Spanish, are disgusting because we eat coagulated pig blood inside the intestines of pigs mixed with meat and pinions.

What the fudge does this have to do with anything? If I think Spanish food is disgusting, that's the same level of racism as you saying Latin Spanish language is wrong and subpar and that Latin Americans all write like idiots?

PS: I love "moronga" and "quesadilla de sesos". Look it up and don't bring up shit that's nothing to do with anything at all

First of all, I don't hate Latin Spanish, I'd rather see the old Disney movies in Latin Spanish than in Iberian Spanish, but hey, I'm just stating the truth of the Spanish market here, many have tried to bring over the Latin Spanish versions over and have failed miserably, is it wrong to say so? I'm doing this because I want CR to react in time if they haven't done so, and use Iberian Spanish translations to secure their continuity in Spain. These are not prejudices, for goodness sake, stop being such a paranoid... stating truth does not equal prejudice, even if it looks like it to some people.

And yeah, the analogy wasn't really that good, and I do eat quite more horrible things on the eyes of other countries and cultures, I just put something that a UK friend told me when he knew what moricllas were. But it's like that thing some people used to say about countries where rabbits are cooked and eaten, that "because we eat rabbits, we are horrible people".

As I said just now, why do you think the UK and the USA have different translations and dubs for many shows and movies? Because either side did not like the other side's translations and dubs.

On a side note, and expanding my answer to kgw, I'm the sort of guy who buys the Blu-rays/DVDs AND downloads the fansubbed version, I just don't buy the localized version unless the series, like Madoka Magica, is done well. I said this before, but it seems you failed to read or understand that... I know I write friggin' text walls, but try to read to the end before replying next time.

Chagen46 wrote:

This conversation is making the inner linguistics nerd in me happy.

Though this dialect war in incredibly stupid. It's like watching fights over British and American English.

It may seem stupid, but it has severe consequences for businesses. Try asking any Iberian Spanish how he feels when talking with the ISP operators through the phone. Just a hint: All of them are Latin Spanish. Most of the Iberian Spanish that have suffered this will tell you that they can't understand a single thing they say, and up throwing the phone to a wall, or just give up. It's a real problem here (and they use them because they work from Latin America, and have significantly lower wages compared to Iberian Spanish operators). It goes beyond the level of just not liking.

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