Forum - View topicNEWS: Bandai: Do Not Fansub Ghost in the Shell Film
|
Goto page Previous Next Note: this is the discussion thread for this article |
| Author | Message | |||||||||||||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
|
Sydney2K
Posts: 219 Location: Australia |
|
|||||||||||||
|
You know there's a third party in this- the downloader. The downloader can choose to ignore any licenced material on offer.
Widya Santoso |
||||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||||
DriftRoot
 Posts: 222 Location: NH |
|
|||||||||||||
|
Why does the length of this thread surprise me? Oh, that's right, some people out there still think that obtaining illegal goods is OK based on extremely transparent arguments regarding cost, availability, perceived slights and whatnot. Huh, fortunately that whole point of view and all its excuses can be dismissed very simply: if it was OK, it would not be illegal and people woudn't have grounds to haul you into court for it. Yah, so guess what, it doesn't matter if YOU think it's OK, does it?
I honestly have a smidgen more respect for people who fansub and download fansubs while freely admitting that what they're doing is illegal and in no way justifiable in the court of law. Yeesh, if you're going gleefully go around doing bad things, have the backbone to stand up for what you obviously believe in: crime. It's my personal opinion that most people arguing for fansubs have guilty consciences and are scrambling to assure themselves out loud that they're doing nothing wrong. This is a good time to mention that I do download fansubs, I guess. p.s. Whatever happened to not naming fansub groups in the forums? I've always taken great care to avoid direct references to them, though after one group famously headlined on the main page, that kind of went out the window, I admit... |
||||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||||
|
DiamondDust
Posts: 6 Location: McDonough, GA |
|
|||||||||||||
|
Such a massive thread.
-I wish folk would stop the blanket hate of fansubbing/fansubs. All it really demonstrates is that a person is either cowardly, lazy, or too ignorant to simply cite specific names, groups, etc that ARE deserving of condemnation. When all fanusb groups but 2 or 3 have degenerated to being worthless rippers for all intents, THEN just say "Everyone but such and such are destroying the industry" -It'd be nice if folk would stop the blanket cries of impotence of fansubbing. There is plenty of stuff that I've enjoyed watching that is far off the beaten path and needs promoting. For every person that complains constantly about Naruto or Gundam SEED...surely they can spare to waste some hot air praising a couple under the radar series either out in R1 or otherwise. -Bandai's recent QC problems have nothing to do with SSS. When it comes to Bandai, the correct choice of action for the consumer is to voice discontent at their QC and refuse to buy any of the afflicted releases or to resolve to only buy them once they have been heavily discounted. For example, thanks to the Zeta set fiasco(pre-order for me specifically), and despite the AoD situation that has gone NOWHERE in months...I decided to only pick up Bandai releases once they get to a "cheap" or $50'ish iteration. People fearful of SSS should simply wait for a review to come in(Like from our beloved AoD/ANN) and then decide if any technical issues are enough for them personally to abstain from the release either permanently or until discount and price downs come to pass. -Most R1 companies are not atrocious. In fact, most do quite a nice job and deserve good business. Stop the blanket R1/anti-business hate folks...it simply won't ever lead anywhere nice. -Getterbeam |
||||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||||
|
broodwars
Posts: 1 |
|
|||||||||||||
|
Just a thought to the people who complain of the lengthy delay in DVD releases between Japan and the States, and are arguing for Simultaneous releases:
Are you telling me that you wouldn't complain about R1 13+ DVD releases for 26 episode series, at twice the cost we have now? That's exactly what we would get if we had a simultaneous release with the Japanese, at least on the series side. Movies are a slightly different story, but we still wouldn't likely get a bilingual release if released in that fashion. The time delay is a necessary evil for me, and one I'm quite willing to (impatiently) tolerate if it means we get lower-disc count quality releases here. From where I stand, if the companies are going to make any headway with flushing out the piracy plaguing them, they're starting in the wrong place. Fansubbing at least has its pros and cons...DVD rips are an entirely different story: Not only are "fans" pirating the work of the original artists, but the localizing work (English dub, translations, extras, etc.) of the R1 company itself. Wouldn't they make more progress stemming the piracy-related decline of DVD sales by STARTING with going after the DVD rippers, and THEN move on to fansubbing? At least with the DVD rips nipped, they have control over their own R1 content again... |
||||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||||
writerpatrick
 Posts: 675 Location: Canada |
|
|||||||||||||
|
I think many are reading more into it than it says. Bandai is simply telling fansubbers not to bother with this release because there will be a legal release and fansubbers should respect that.
I also think that it might be time for the producers to take a serious look at how they can control the fansubbing distribution system because it's starting to get out of control. There are many so called "fansubs" which aren't fansubs at all but just illegal copies of the material. They may not be able to eliminate all illegal distrubutors, but with dilligence they could curb the majority of it. Bittorrent is probably the biggest reason why it's such a problem now. It's as simple as click and download. But Bittorrent and IRC do have their weak spots such as bittorrent's trackers. And if they start going after sites like ">This is a Known Bootleg Site, then while they may not eliminate it completely, they could reduce the majority of illegal downloads by making it harder to find the material. In a way it's a problem the industry has created for themselves by not trying to properly eliminate it before. But now we're starting to get to a point where TV and the Internet are merging and it's theoretically possible for a Japanese company to "broadcast" in the US. |
||||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||||
|
chaosbladeuk
Posts: 48 |
|
|||||||||||||
|
I have to admit I do download alot of anime but lately I find that more and more anime dvds are available to rent. I rarely watch anything more than once so this is a nice thing to do (sometimes I rent something I've already seen on fansub just to see the dubbed version as well changed/edited scenes). I feel that Bandai's request will just create more attention around it and probably would have a much more negative impact that they had originally intended.
I have a university degree in Finance and Accounting and even I have trouble understanding what he really means (just throwing around terms in the wrong context maybe? >.<) Simply put - there is no definitive proof (financially) of what fansubbing does to the licensors/distributors of anime but the fact that money doesn't simply go towards the big anime companies but the artists too. Furthermore whether something is worth licensing/distributing is dependant on the current market/popularity/trends of the show, how well its received overseas and whether it can be emulated domestically, rather than the show being a piece of art that is bound to sell i.e even the poorest artistically drawn show can gain more interest over something thats so beautiful. Not too hard to simplify it right 
|
||||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||||
|
Mugen1style
Posts: 281 Location: North of the wall |
|
|||||||||||||
|
Well good for you Bandai I wish you luck. i personally am a huge fan of the Gits and I will buy it regardless. If I see it out there in a fansub on this show I will not want it. However when it comes to some other shows which I have doubts about ever seeing a state side release sub or dub. Then I am still going to watch the fansub.
a show like Simoun for instance probably will never make it over here also not likely to see a release of Legend of Galactic the hereos either so I will watch them as well via Fansub. Now as you can veiw my pic's of my anime shelves you will note that I own 600+ legit dvd's. Almost 1/3rd of them being bandai releases. I absoulutly will support my fav hobby, but I am not going to buy things I can't screen say the first 3-4 eps any more so for me Fansubs are very valuable. I am not trying to defend piracy nor do I care for the rippers of already licensed for state side series I do not DL them. If I did not get a chance to check them out before they were licensed then to bad, chances are I am not going to buy them either unless I have it on very good authority that I will like it. Also I can honestly say I delete any thing I don't like after 5 ep's. If I like it then I will probably dl them until I can buy them. My goal is to have an excellent anime DVD collection not a collection of hit and miss like it kind of is now, mainly because up until a short while ago I had never even heard of a fansub. Now if these companies would like to stop me from checking there stuff out via fansub then they could stream 3-4 eps on there sites with a sub and I would be happy with that. Again I BUY TONS OF ANIMU please make it easier for me to weed out the gargantuan amount of crap being brought over! I have roughly 12,000 USD into my collection I am not going to take as many chances as I once did so help me support you. Give a dog a bone and he will be loyal to you. PS I am still waiting for Bandai to release Gundam X and Turn A Gundam here until they do I will just have to watch my fansubbed ver. PSS I do not condone stealing so don't say I am some selfish snob that will not support the hobby he loves. I have proof of my undieing financial support just look at the show us your shelves thread > animenewsnetwork.com/bbs/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=11845&postdays=0&postorder=asc&topic_view=&start=435 |
||||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||||
|
bayoab
Posts: 831 |
|
|||||||||||||
They are not going to shut down IRC. It's impossible. They are likely going to do the same thing the MPAA did: sue large scale bot providers.
You meant ex., not i.e. I hope. There are a lot of other ethical groups out there. |
||||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||||
LoopyChew
 SubscriberPosts: 33 |
|
|||||||||||||
Okay, the main flaw here is that US-based fansubbers--and don't take this personally, but it's true--care no more about your country than the R1 distributors do. If it's in English, its primary audience will be the English-native countries. (EDIT: Okay, I suppose the digisubbers are also able to provide to R2 and R4 countries as well, if you want to get technical, but that last sentence is the point.) There ARE digisubs available in other languages. Just yesterday, I was curious to see what the original Speed Grapher OP sounded like (the original "Girls on Film" OP), and one of the versions I saw was subtitled in Spanish. I know people who have Naruto fansubbed in French, so these alternate-language fansubs are available. If you want one in Czech (I'm assuming from your username that you're Czech, anyway), and there aren't any licensors of any given anime for your area, perhaps you should start up your own group?
That's why there are legitimate R2 distribution channels. And, I might point out, they tend to be significantly cheaper than their R1 counterparts. Boxsets containing 8-13 episodes of the more popular anime around usually cost around 60 CHF (~40 Euros, ~$50 US), with the sole exception I've seen thus far being Beck at 90CHF (probably all the music licensing). From the stuff I've seen, Beez and Dynamic make good on their licenses.
Don't like? Don't get. I've not been satisfied with the quality of the US Rurouni Kenshin translations, so I haven't bothered buying it, although I'll cop to buying volumes I love for the sake of having an English copy in a format I can read without having to turn things on or hand-bind myself. In the meanwhile, I've got the Japanese and the French versions to enjoy, the latter being one of my initial forays into learning French. English and Japanese ain't the only languages out there. If you live in .cz, you should know that better than most. |
||||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||||
|
bayoab
Posts: 831 |
|
|||||||||||||
If you haven't noticed, anime companies have never given away financial statistics regarding specific properties because it gives far too much information away. The only one that has in recent memory is Viz with Inu Yasha. Do you believe Hollywood or the RIAA's loss of sale numbers? All the "independent" firms come to different conclusions. You cannot measure lost sales. You can only see it in comparison.
You get an F for completely missing the point. The point is that saying that "fansubbing" GITS:SSS is the same thing as saying: We are going to translate Harry Potter book 7 from english to chinese. Let's have it spread around the internet in Chinese months before it goes on sale and see if sales increase. The fact is, it is an established franchise and it will have a larger negative effect than a positive effect. This is true in every other medium so why should it not be true in Anime DVDs?
#2 I cannot answer because I do not know how much the disc cost them and how much profit they are actually making on the sale. If you use the industry averages, they are still making a miniscule profit and hoping to make it up in bulk sales. If everyone bought like this, it would likely be a net loss #3 is extremely complex and the simple answer is yes this is profit because this is a "No buy" to "Buy" change. However, if you are going to use this to argue that fansubs produce profit, then you fail to take into account that these are outsiders. I also will add that this says that the probability that people who see the series will buy it is 3/10 which means that if everyone who was going to buy it pre-saw it, this would reduce the number of sales.
|
||||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||||
|
Godaistudios
Posts: 2075 Location: Albuquerque, NM (the land of entrapment) |
|
|||||||||||||
I'd just like to preface my response with a couple of things. First, I agree with Bandai's stance (and would love to see them sue - really.) Second, I own a modest collection of anime on DVD - probably somewhere between 500-600. (I'll gladly link to my DVD profiler for general evidence of such - upon request) I also agree that any title that has been licensed shoudln't be fansubbed - because it's already coming over. Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that fansubbing is a good thing - I'm not making an arguement about it being right or wrong here or that anime should be free for the masses, etc. I'm simply making an argument about its affect on the industry and sales. That all said, I'm going to have to disagree with some of the arguments that you made here. First you mention the torrents downloads and how they dwarf sales. Sure, I'll agree that's likely the case for most series. But there is a problem using that as evidence of lost sales, and I'm sure you already know the reasons why. But for brevity's sake, I'll do so anyway. How many people downloading it would have bought it to begin with? People who would not have bought it can not be counted as a lost sale. Now, how many people bought it because they saw the fansub? (I tend to fall into this category) Of course, this is an unknown as well. There are no hard numbers to go on. There are other theories that should be considered as well. How much more anime is there to choose from now than a few years ago? Is it possible that fewer sales come into play because of oversaturation? There are more titles than ever before on the shelves to buy. I know I certainly can't afford them all, though I do buy quite a large share. How many "crappy" series have been licensed, assuming it would sell better than it did due to poor market research? You also mentioned the teenagers - are they the targeted demographic for anime DVD's? How many of them have the disposable funds to buy all the anime volumes coming out each month? I don't know of that many teens who have that kind of money to begin with - so those that don't have the money - how can they be "lost sales" without the funds to make the purchase? Sure, a few have part time jobs - but with other issues in their lives, DVD buying for them isn't a priority. Of course, there is another concern I have - the market that doesn't buy the DVD because they've already seen the fansub. Technichally, this line of thinking should mean that anime shouldn't be shown on TV because the DVD sales would drop as well (and supplemented with advertising dollars instead.) So tell me this then. If this is the case, shouldn't the DVD's for GitS: SAC go down, rather than up? How about Full Metal Alchemist, Cowboy Bebop, Trigun - and the like? Did sales go up because they were televised - or did they go down? If televising them helped sales, it shouldn't be much different for the fansub viewer (if it's to be argued that that because it's on TV and therefore not through the computer - let's remember the power of DVR - and the ability to transfer those recorded files to the computer.) Alternately, if TV viewing does increase the DVD sales - previewing via fansubs should also do the same. The audience watching it on Tivo and those downloading the fansubs can't be that much different from each other, can they? There is one more element to consider of course. The old sub vs. dub debate. I have no doubt in my mind that dub is more popluar and did indeed outsell subs years ago. I also have no doubt that many of the fans today discovered anime through the televised dubs shown on Adult Swim and the like. As a result, if the majority of the fans now prefer dubs, why would they bother with fansubs? Even with instant gratification as an explanation, they'd still want their dub - ergo they'd still feel the need to either watch it on TV, or buy the DVD. Given the factors above, I have to wonder. Are fansubs really responsible for the lost sales, or is it a convenient place to point the finger? (again, if teens with little to no money for DVD's are the problem downloaders, how much money really is being lost?) That said, even though I'm not privy to the numbers on how sales have dropped - the reasons I've listed should show that if fansubs are an impact, it's probably not even close to the majority reason. I'm not denying it could be a reason - but my brain can't fathom how it's the big issue with everything else that could be a factor. Instead, I think it's more negligible than most are willing to admit. There are other holes I could point out, but it's just something I wanted to say about all of this. Now, as far as people fansubbing a title - not only licensed, but that also has a future release date in the U.S.? That's just a stupid thing to do. If a fansubber feels the need and does fansub it, I hope they do get prosecuted and lose - badly. |
||||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||||
unhealthyman
 Posts: 306 |
|
|||||||||||||
I wholeheartedly agree. (Except perhaps about the 'smidgen' part.) I hate this whole long list of bullshit reasons why fansubbing and piracy can be justified. I download fansubs because I'm a bad person. I don't really mind. I'm not biased against anime, I pirate all sorts of stuff. I'm neither proud nor ashamed of the fact. And I'm sure a lot of other people fall into this bracket but just refuse to acknowledge the fact. I do, of course, buy some stuff. However, I am also a student so don't have much disposable income (Note here: this is the reason not an excuse, I have no desire or need to provide an excuse.) Fair enough for Bandai to say 'don't pirate our stuff,' as long as they are prepared for people to ignore them. Big US film companies have a lot more influence than an anime distributor in the US and yet almost everything is available somewhere on this evil creation called the internet... Incidentally, I own GitS 1 and the soundtrack on the DVD is so out of sync it is almost unwatchable. And GitS: Innocence annoyed me no end, although perhaps it deserves a rewatch. |
||||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||||
Tempest
 I Run this place.ANN Publisher  Posts: 10441 Location: Do not message me for support. |
|
|||||||||||||
Have you ever heard of a "director" ? Everything you suggest above is very plausible, and it has been doen once or twice, but there's at least one very undesirable, potential, effect. The two dubs (English and Japanese) could be vastly different. After the scripts are made, the Japanese director will attend the Japanese dubbing sessions and coach the actors. "Say this with passion," "scream louder", etc... He may also make last minute script changes during the recording session. Following you model, the North American product wouldn't benefit from a lot of the Japanese director's work. If the general concensus is that the American product should be as close to the original as possible, then your method would result in an inferior product. Honestly, I think that American casting shouldn't even happen until after a few episodes of the Japanese product have been dubbed, and the American ADR directors can listen to it in order to see where the Japanese director is going with the voices. About 18 months ago I asked someone in the industry how he felt about simultaneous releases. Hi answer shocked me, because he said he hated doing it. Making a simultaneous US release meant asking Japan to hold onto their finished product and wait for the american product to be ready before releasing it in Japan. Whatsmore, a lot of anime is released on TV in Japan. If a DVD is release in the USA simultaneously with the Japanese TV release, it creates a significant danger of reverse imports, something the Japanese producers don't want. Personally, I love the idea of Simultaneous releases, and I think they're the best way to deal with fansubs. Rather than attacking fansubs, just make them unnecessarry. Unfortunately, simultaneous releases, open a whole new can of worms. I expect however, that as the market matures, we will eventually start to see many simultaneous releases as Japanese and American companies start working closer together. Providing the Japanese producers accept a delay in their Japanese releases while the North American dub catches up. -t |
||||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||||
|
Tempest
I Run this place. ANN Publisher Posts: 10441 Location: Do not message me for support. |
|
|||||||||||||
You should have said this before. You're not an idiot, but you were acting like one. Rather than making pointless comments like:
Which are really no different from comments like "Anime is good, cartoons are bad. Please try to contribute to the discussion by presenting and explaining a point of view. -t |
||||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||||
|
Tempest
I Run this place. ANN Publisher Posts: 10441 Location: Do not message me for support. |
|
|||||||||||||
The BBC and CBC are partially add driven, and they often resell their productionss on DVD after the broadcast. At the very bottom of the credits of any BBC or CBC production, you will see the usual copyright statement. Don't fool yourself into thinking that BBC and CBC productions are public domain and/or that they won't and don't take an active interest in the protection of their intelectual property. As for NPR, I honestly don't know that much about their productions, but have they ever produced something with a budget worth tens of millions of dollars? Again, admitting a fair amount of ignorance, I believe that their business model is only good for low budget productions. Mega budget productions, like Hollywood Movies, will never happen without Intelectual property rights. Up front I admit that I am a reformed pirate. I spent a good part of my youth actively pirating computer software, and video. A few years ago, someone asked me why I no longer held the same anti-copyright beliefs that I used to hold. My short answer was, "I grew up." The long answer was that, I now know and understand way more than I did back then, and I realise that it was just a fantasy. Without the potential for significant financial return, companies and individuals will not invest the money necessary to produce this material that some claim 'should be free.' Whatsmore, I realise that my beliefs were backwards, I chose to be anti-copyright because I wanted a belief that would allow me free access to material that I didn't want to pay/sacrifice for. In otherwords, I allowed my desires affect my beliefs, instead of having my beliefs mold my actions. There's still a lot of validity to the various anti-copyright arguements, as well as other neo-libertarian*beliefs. Unfortunately too many people who hold such beliefs, chose them in order to facilitate their own selfish desires. *libertarianism respects copyright, as it is seen as "property." Some wannabe libertarians are under the mistaken belief that libertarianism and copyright don't go together. I refer to these people as neo-libertarians. -t |
||||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||||
. I'd like a link to something saying that ADV or any of the other "majors" is going out of business/losing profits/anything else at the moment. No, 4Kids profit margin doesn't count because they only license children's shows, and don't include japanese audio on most releases anyway. Also, Animeigo just licensed Yawara!, and that's not exactly mainstream. But then again, neither is Animeigo. 
 |
All times are GMT - 5 Hours |
|
|
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group