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P€|\||§_|\/|ast@



Joined: 14 Feb 2006
Posts: 3498
Location: IN your nightmares
PostPosted: Sat Aug 14, 2010 2:04 am Reply with quote
Sorry for the vague title, but the point was brought up in a previous thread and I think it has validity: viewpoints of ANN staff, reveiwers and moderators don't have much representation for the moe, loli and fanservice crowd. To get a good cross sectional view of the anime community, someone must be in touch with fans that have these preferences as well. It would improve the diversity and quality of the site with representatives that have opposing viewpoints.

ANN has plenty of people who present anime and manga with a traditional, squeaky clean image so it's unquestionably biased. But there's lots of controversial and subversive things out there too that I think people should be more informed about, from informed sources which ANN is currently severely lacking.
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ZakuAce



Joined: 06 Jan 2010
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Location: SE Wisconsin
PostPosted: Sat Aug 14, 2010 2:23 am Reply with quote
Didn't Zac say they were looking to hire someone like that a while ago? So you can't say they aren't trying.
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Kimiko_0



Joined: 31 Aug 2008
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Location: Leiden, NL, EU
PostPosted: Sat Aug 14, 2010 3:47 am Reply with quote
Huh? I think they already cater enough to the fanservice/ecchi crowd. ANN needs more women.
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ikillchicken



Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Posts: 7272
Location: Vancouver
PostPosted: Sat Aug 14, 2010 1:11 pm Reply with quote
A few things:

What does it matter what the staff or moderators think about that stuff? I can see wanting balance from people doing actual review/opinion work but who cares if about a mod or non review staff member's personal taste? They're perfectly capable of conducting themselves in a professional and impartial manner. Their personal taste in anime only comes into it when they're acting as a private poster just like you.

Also, I think it's pretty unrealistic to throw loli into the mix. Unless your definition differs greatly from mine, we're talking about sexualizing little girls. You're free to think of that what you will but you're kidding yourself if you think it's unreasonable for the vast majority of people to have a problem with it.

Finally, as for Moe/Fanservice...where exactly do you get this idea that ANN's reviewers are against those things. Theron Martin, who writes at least a third of ANN's reviews, is a big fan of those types of shows. He has frequently given good reviews to them. I mean, just look at his most recent one for HotD. He actually lists "mindless fan service" as a positive. Carl who in turn writes about a third of ANN's reviews himself is also by no means totally dismissive of this kind of thing. So what exactly is it that you want? I myself wouldn't mind seeing a bit more diversity from ANN since three main reviewers isn't that many. It seems to me that moe/fanservice fans are more than represented on ANN though.
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P€|\||§_|\/|ast@



Joined: 14 Feb 2006
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Location: IN your nightmares
PostPosted: Sat Aug 14, 2010 3:01 pm Reply with quote
ikillchicken wrote:
A few things:

What does it matter what the staff or moderators think about that stuff? I can see wanting balance from people doing actual review/opinion work but who cares if about a mod or non review staff member's personal taste?
I agree with the impartiality point. Everyone is free to their personally held opinions about certain things, and can choose whether or not to express them in an open forum.

ikillchicken wrote:
Also, I think it's pretty unrealistic to throw loli into the mix. Unless your definition differs greatly from mine, we're talking about sexualizing little girls.
No we're not. Illustrations of young-looking characters exist in anime regardless of how they're perceived. It is appealing to some, while not to others and others find sexy images of obviously more mature characters to be appealing. One preference isn't inherently better and neither deserve scrutiny via biased judgments of how fans of certain subject material are perceived, and intending to restrict that subject material. My challenge for ANN was to offer at least one POV that's not afraid to speak out against the overwhelming level of negativity (fed partly from it's own constituents) against lolicon.

ikillchicken wrote:
Finally, as for Moe/Fanservice...where exactly do you get this idea that ANN's reviewers are against those things. Theron Martin, who writes at least a third of ANN's reviews, is a big fan of those types of shows. He has frequently given good reviews to them. I mean, just look at his most recent one for HotD. He actually lists "mindless fan service" as a positive. Carl who in turn writes about a third of ANN's reviews himself is also by no means totally dismissive of this kind of thing. So what exactly is it that you want? I myself wouldn't mind seeing a bit more diversity from ANN since three main reviewers isn't that many. It seems to me that moe/fanservice fans are more than represented on ANN though.
I still feel there's a lot of negative and inaccurate sentiment that is supported within the ranks of ANN reveiw staff, the columnists and industry people outside of ANN regarding moe and fanservice. I will in fact point out Mr. Surat and AWO as a leading voice in that. His comments are often applauded by fans of theirs in the ANN membership and there really is no representative voice of the other side, while yes there may be reviewers who do appreciate fanservice and moe, I doubt they were put into reviewer positions for that purpose.
Kimiko_0 wrote:
Huh? I think they already cater enough to the fanservice/ecchi crowd. ANN needs more women.
Perhaps. Did you happen to catch my thread asking whether anime/manga concentrates too much on satisfying needs of men and not enough for women?
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dtm42



Joined: 05 Feb 2008
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 14, 2010 5:47 pm Reply with quote
ikillchicken wrote:
What does it matter what the staff or moderators think about that stuff? I can see wanting balance from people doing actual review/opinion work but who cares if about a mod or non review staff member's personal taste? They're perfectly capable of conducting themselves in a professional and impartial manner. Their personal taste in anime only comes into it when they're acting as a private poster just like you.


If only. If only. I would love to believe that all the reviewers here are impartial, but they're not. The world doesn't work the way it should.

ikillchicken wrote:
Also, I think it's pretty unrealistic to throw loli into the mix. Unless your definition differs greatly from mine, we're talking about sexualizing little girls. You're free to think of that what you will but you're kidding yourself if you think it's unreasonable for the vast majority of people to have a problem with it.


I hate the idea and use of "Loli", but there's no denying that a significant percentage of international fans do like the stuff. So I'm torn on this; Loli fans should get catered to since their numbers are big, but I don't want them to get catered to. After all, given the shows that comes out just for them (or to be more specific, their counterparts in Japan), they are already well serviced.

ikillchicken wrote:
Finally, as for Moe/Fanservice...where exactly do you get this idea that ANN's reviewers are against those things. Theron Martin, who writes at least a third of ANN's reviews, is a big fan of those types of shows. He has frequently given good reviews to them. I mean, just look at his most recent one for HotD. He actually lists "mindless fan service" as a positive. Carl who in turn writes about a third of ANN's reviews himself is also by no means totally dismissive of this kind of thing. So what exactly is it that you want? I myself wouldn't mind seeing a bit more diversity from ANN since three main reviewers isn't that many. It seems to me that moe/fanservice fans are more than represented on ANN though.


Zac's against it, Justin's not too kind to it either although not to the degree that Zac is. Just listen to the odd ANNCast, and you'll see what Past is saying. And yes, there have been some reviews of Moe/Loli/fanservice shows that have been quite generous. But the usual attitude is that shows which purely offer fanservice and/or Moe and/or Loli are not as good. A sentiment which I agree with by the way. The biggest reason I believe is that too many directors go for the money-making pandering and miss out on making a decent production.
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Zin5ki



Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Posts: 6680
Location: London, UK
PostPosted: Sat Aug 14, 2010 5:48 pm Reply with quote
Past wrote:
My challenge for ANN was to offer at least one POV that's not afraid to speak out against the overwhelming level of negativity (fed partly from it's own constituents) against lolicon.

Do you request evaluative and discursive articles that express a personal approval of the content in question, or at least imply an acceptance of it?

If memory serves me correctly, Richard J's review of Strike Witches does the latter. One is not in a position to tell whether similarly divisive titles will be evaluated in the same manner in future, however.
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor


Joined: 05 Jan 2002
Posts: 7912
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 14, 2010 7:43 pm Reply with quote
I hired Richard J to do reviews of the moe/loli/whatever stuff because he writes solid reviews that explain why he enjoys the shows beyond "i liked it because I have a pavlovian positive response to moe genre tropes". He explains himself and reviews the shows based on their content, not because he's on a personal crusade for loli acceptance. That's what I wanted from a so-called "moe/loli reviewer" and that's what he's doing for us.

Coming up he's reviewing Kanokon and Strike Witches 2. We'll probably have him doing more in the future.

No, I don't like moe stuff generally unless it's done really well (Haruhi, Toradora) but that's common knowledge and I don't review moe shows (rather than talk about them on my podcast from time to time). Instead I have what I believe is a diverse staff of critics, many of whom give very positive reviews to moe, fanservice and even loli shows. This is easily proven if you actually read our reviews. I realize there is a longstanding perception out there that "ANN hates moe", but that's an inaccurate, unfair generalization that ignores the facts completely, ignores what our actual content is, cherry-picks examples from years ago and is more about providing bored teenagers with something else to hate on the internet than it is an actual critique of our editorial bias.

Speaking to the point about women, we have 5 regular staff critics by the way - Carl, Theron, Carlo, Hope and Lissa. Erin Finnegan writes Shelf Life every week and we just hired Gia Manry as our associate editor. While I'd like to have even more women on staff I don't think we're doing too shabby in that regard.

Long story short I think with Richard on board (and if you actually read Theron, Carl and Carlo's reviews) we've got plenty of "representatives" here that are perfectly accepting of the material you're talking about. No, there aren't many in the senior full-time editorial staff (which is a whopping 2 people by the way) who are super in to it but I don't really see how that's an issue when we have so many staff critics who are. Not only that, I'm not hiring any more editorial staff for the forseeable future, so it's a moot point anyway.

I'm very happy with the team I've put together and I feel like your viewpoint is being represented just fine.

Were I incredibly unprofessional and bad at my job I would legislate opinion from my desk and demand my writers only review moe and loli content negatively and you'd never see a positive review of something like Queen's Blade or Dance in the Vampire Bund on this site. But I don't do that, and the evidence is all over this site. We have a very wide array of opinions and tastes represented here, and I'm proud of that. I would never tell one of my critics what their opinion should be nor would I change their opinion before their review was published. That would be called "being a terrible editor".

whoops sorry wall of text!
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P€|\||§_|\/|ast@



Joined: 14 Feb 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 14, 2010 10:31 pm Reply with quote
Ok that was a concise and adequate reply to my concerns, Zac. I've always respected Richard's views on a lot of the fanservicey, ecchi and moe-laden stuff, so bringing him into the mix offers a good deal of reassurance for me. Congrats to him btw for becoming an official reviewer.

I suppose a few of us have made it apparent that the aforementioned genres need love too. I can't speak for other fans of it, but I wouldn't have stayed a contributor to this site for so long if I truly felt that ANN was on some sort of crusade to scrub moe and loli from the English-speaking anime community.

Thank you, Zac.
Zin5ki wrote:
Past wrote:
My challenge for ANN was to offer at least one POV that's not afraid to speak out against the overwhelming level of negativity (fed partly from it's own constituents) against lolicon.

Do you request evaluative and discursive articles that express a personal approval of the content in question, or at least imply an acceptance of it?
Well to me, *merely* implying an acceptance of ecchi content surrounding young-looking characters is a minimum level of critical appreciation for a title one is doing a review for, when that title is intended for targeted viewers. If someone is begrudgingly going to do a review because of the loli elements but points only to other merits of the show like good story elements and high quality action scenes, I'd rather not them do the review. A better reviewer would do that AND be somewhat able to channel a snapshot of the general level of approval amongst loli fans into his or her review.
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ikillchicken



Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Posts: 7272
Location: Vancouver
PostPosted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 7:09 pm Reply with quote
Just to clarify a couple things:

dtm42 wrote:
If only. If only. I would love to believe that all the reviewers here are impartial, but they're not. The world doesn't work the way it should.


Yeah...I never once said the reviewers act impartial. I said the mods and non-review staff do. As for the reviewers, I think the concept of a truly 'impartial review' is an oxymoron. If you disagree, that's fine. I'm not really interested in going into that whole debate though. That wasn't even what Past was requesting after all.

Quote:
Zac's against it, Justin's not too kind to it either although not to the degree that Zac is. Just listen to the odd ANNCast, and you'll see what Past is saying.


and just look at the bulk of the other stuff on ANN and you wont. This is what I don't get. Yeah, some people on ANN, like Zac, really hate this stuff. It seems that people like Past and others zero right in on this one extreme and then, even though the majority of ANN ranges from indifferent to downright accepting, start talking about how all of ANN hates this stuff. It's crazy. They say they just don't want everyone to hate it but really, they seem to want the opposite. They want no one to hate it.

Quote:
And yes, there have been some reviews of Moe/Loli/fanservice shows that have been quite generous. But the usual attitude is that shows which purely offer fanservice and/or Moe and/or Loli are not as good.


I don't get that though. Even if you're a fan of these things do you really want that kind of show getting a good review? Is there not a difference in these people's minds between a good and bad show? (And if not, what exactly are they hoping to gain from a review?) I mean, I'm a fan of action shows. If a show's only appeal is a series of pointless explosions though and otherwise it's complete shit then I wouldn't call it a good show. That's not even to say I definitely wouldn't watch such a show. Maybe I still enjoy pointless explosions. If that's the case though, why even read a review? I don't need a review to tell me a show will be action oriented just like I'm sure these people don't need a review to tell them a show will be moe or fanservice oriented. If that's really all they care about then just skip the reviews and watch what you want to watch.
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