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she does not buy "scanlation groups' argument that they promote manga in general. It might be true with some obscure titles, but it can't be with hits such as Naruto."

Agreed. What's more, the groups that tend to release these hits are usually just trying to win some internet credit by being "FIRST!" and generally produce work that is either poorly translated, poorly scanned, poorly typeset, or all of the above. If you "play by the rules" and focus on more obscure, unlicensed material, then you can argue you promote manga.

Quote:

"a number of artists, editors and translators" have told him off the record that the increase in erotic manga needs to be curtailed, particularly "those featuring very young-looking characters."

Yes, but is a law necessarily the best way to curtail it? Do we really want government bureaucrats deciding content? Maybe the editors ought to do try editing out some of that content, directly negotiating with the authors on what's necessary or not for a story.

They have many good points (I agree wholeheartedly with the comment about obscure titles and Naruto), but I disagree with how they blame foreigners for illegal scans. The Japanese have always been uploading scans onto the internet. And how you do think people get scanlations in the first place? Yeah, foreigners can import copies of magazines or buy copies while in Japan, but it's usually Japanese people who provide the raw scans.

vashfanatic wrote:

Quote:

she does not buy "scanlation groups' argument that they promote manga in general. It might be true with some obscure titles, but it can't be with hits such as Naruto."

Agreed. What's more, the groups that tend to release these hits are usually just trying to win some internet credit by being "FIRST!" and generally produce work that is either poorly translated, poorly scanned, poorly typeset, or all of the above. If you "play by the rules" and focus on more obscure, unlicensed material, then you can argue you promote manga.

Quote:

"a number of artists, editors and translators" have told him off the record that the increase in erotic manga needs to be curtailed, particularly "those featuring very young-looking characters."

Yes, but is a law necessarily the best way to curtail it? Do we really want government bureaucrats deciding content? Maybe the editors ought to do try editing out some of that content, directly negotiating with the authors on what's necessary or not for a story.

Couldn't agree with you more, on all of the above.

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Kelts reported that "a number of artists, editors and translators" have told him off the record that the increase in erotic manga needs to be curtailed, particularly "those featuring very young-looking characters."

Because the relation between this and kids uploading manga on the web are completely related.

I will agree on the Naruto comments, though. This is why scanlations need to go back underground, where instead of everyone having access to tons of illegal manga scanlations, your friends can recommend you a series or two to check out from a particular group they follow online, which could then lead fans to buy the books.

That's how scanlations were originally meant to be.

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Police later said that the teenager obtained the manga images from overseas sites.

So the pre-release manga the boy leaked was leaked to him via some overseas site that already had the leaked manga...and I thought the boy was the focal point of the problem.

vashfanatic wrote:

Quote:

"a number of artists, editors and translators" have told him off the record that the increase in erotic manga needs to be curtailed, particularly "those featuring very young-looking characters."

Yes, but is a law necessarily the best way to curtail it? Do we really want government bureaucrats deciding content? Maybe the editors ought to do try editing out some of that content, directly negotiating with the authors on what's necessary or not for a story.

Evidently, the publishers feel competitive pressure ... "if we don't do it someone else will and they will take the market" ... and if they feel like they are in a no-win and ultimately self-destructive "lolicon arms race", it may be that the only way to come to an overall cease fire is to have a segment of the market distribution off limits to manga that are over some vaguely defined line.

Given the nature of the proposed regulations ~ access to the manga by teenagers, when the core target market that is fueling the lolicon arms race are largely not teenagers ~ its not as if it will eliminate the lolicon manga, but rather establish a sense of what is and is not "over the border" of that segment.

vashfanatic wrote:

Quote:

she does not buy "scanlation groups' argument that they promote manga in general. It might be true with some obscure titles, but it can't be with hits such as Naruto."

Agreed. What's more, the groups that tend to release these hits are usually just trying to win some internet credit by being "FIRST!" and generally produce work that is either poorly translated, poorly scanned, poorly typeset, or all of the above. If you "play by the rules" and focus on more obscure, unlicensed material, then you can argue you promote manga.

Quote:

"a number of artists, editors and translators" have told him off the record that the increase in erotic manga needs to be curtailed, particularly "those featuring very young-looking characters."

Yes, but is a law necessarily the best way to curtail it? Do we really want government bureaucrats deciding content? Maybe the editors ought to do try editing out some of that content, directly negotiating with the authors on what's necessary or not for a story.

I agree with you.

In addition to people focusing on obscure/unlicensed titles, they should also be aware of when titles are licensed and drop them. There's no need to continue when something's readily available, and they can switch their focus to promoting another obscure title. It may be illegal, but they least people can do is show some consideration and brains.

If a magazine or company as issues with erotic or sexual content, then it needs to be brought up with the author(s) and their staff, or create contracts that specifically state what certain magazines can and can't carry. Companies and editors need to take control here, not the government.

Quote:

Yukari Shiina, an employee at the World-Manga.com agency, reported that overall manga sales had declined 6.6% overall in Japan, and that she does not buy "scanlation groups' argument that they promote manga in general. It might be true with some obscure titles, but it can't be with hits such as Naruto."

Definitely agree with the Naruto part, but as for manga sales... please, manga is on the decline with or without uploads. The kids who are playing with their cell phones on the train instead of reading manga aren't losing interest because some otaku upload chapters on the internet.

vashfanatic wrote:

Quote:

she does not buy "scanlation groups' argument that they promote manga in general. It might be true with some obscure titles, but it can't be with hits such as Naruto."

Agreed. What's more, the groups that tend to release these hits are usually just trying to win some internet credit by being "FIRST!" and generally produce work that is either poorly translated, poorly scanned, poorly typeset, or all of the above. If you "play by the rules" and focus on more obscure, unlicensed material, then you can argue you promote manga.

Quote:

"a number of artists, editors and translators" have told him off the record that the increase in erotic manga needs to be curtailed, particularly "those featuring very young-looking characters."

Yes, but is a law necessarily the best way to curtail it? Do we really want government bureaucrats deciding content? Maybe the editors ought to do try editing out some of that content, directly negotiating with the authors on what's necessary or not for a story.

I agree with you about naruto and the groups who work on it as a scantaltor however the Japanese upload manga for themselves not for overseas scantalation groups, trust me I know this all to well. and in many cases since as fan subs of one piece the reason why it is doing so well in the US (anime wise) is (somewhat) due to fan subs, the other portion belongs to shonen jump, and 4kids (for getting people so angry about how it was handled and then having them complain about how bad there version was of it everywhere, however they needed to watch the fan subs to find out it was the dub that sucked and not the tv show). there are plenty of other examples of this effect with other series.
Second unedited Loli-con is child porn with a story (I do love funimation's edited version of dance in the vampire bund). but I think (as well as many other countries) that there is no reason to be drawing characters under 16 in a sexual way. I have yet to hear a good reason why it is necessary (for good story telling) to draw 9 year olds in a sexual manner.
P.S. I would like to thank people for not immediately saying all scantalators are bad. I work on kindaichi shonen no jikembo (after tokyopop dropped it) and another series by the same author called tantei gakuen Q. and it is nice that people here understand what the purpose of fan done translations are

vashfanatic wrote:

Quote:

she does not buy "scanlation groups' argument that they promote manga in general. It might be true with some obscure titles, but it can't be with hits such as Naruto."

Agreed. What's more, the groups that tend to release these hits are usually just trying to win some internet credit by being "FIRST!" and generally produce work that is either poorly translated, poorly scanned, poorly typeset, or all of the above. If you "play by the rules" and focus on more obscure, unlicensed material, then you can argue you promote manga.

Quote:

"a number of artists, editors and translators" have told him off the record that the increase in erotic manga needs to be curtailed, particularly "those featuring very young-looking characters."

Yes, but is a law necessarily the best way to curtail it? Do we really want government bureaucrats deciding content? Maybe the editors ought to do try editing out some of that content, directly negotiating with the authors on what's necessary or not for a story.

You hit the nail on the head. I completely agree with your statements.

Now to go off on a tangent.

The main focus of the proposed laws are primarily targeting the Doujinshi market. Some professional publishing companies do dip into that market, but it is primarily amateurs. In many of those publications the author, artist, and editor are often the same person. In those cases the "editors" aren't necessarily going to make good choices and stop themselves from publishing what they want .

In recent years the levels of erotic depictions of characters have gradually been pushed to extremes. Everyone knows photographing children in a sexual manner is wrong, but is drawing fictional characters that "look" like children in a sexual manner the same thing? This is a gray area and the point where it borderlines on "freedom of speech". It's difficult to preach morality to someone who likes to push creative boundaries about what to do with their own time and money. Personally I think some guidelines are necessary and since most people don't take the moral path, it's often necessary for the government to step in; hence the foundation for this law. The government is creating this law to try and negotiate a boundary that authors / artists / editors can agree to is "crossing the line" and going to far.

But that line is made up by people that have their own views and opinions about what should and shouldn't be acceptible. Just look at the UK where stuff such as BDSM can get you thrown into jail, even when both parties consent. That isn't protecting those people, it's throwing them in jail because a group of people made some arbitrary line because they thought it was "icky." That's the whole problem with moralist laws, they really don't protect anyone. It's like having a seperate law for raping a child, when rape is already a crime - it won't stop anymore kids from being raped.

Also, there have been several studies that have shown that people with more access to porn are less likely to commit sexual crimes. Sure, the study hasn't been done with drawings, but if a drawing of a kid is more likely to prevent someone from harming a real child, why make it illegal? No one was harmed in the production of the drawing, so isn't the only "victim" the person being locked away because of some moralist law that only serves to make people feel better about themselves?

On another note, the whole thing with them blaming a foreign site for the pre-release leak just seems like they're trying to take a pot-shot at foreigners. It would almost be like the British blaming the US for someone in Britain releasing a new episode of Doctor Who before it ever aired. Why would they go through all that trouble when the source is obviously Britain?

Daemonblue wrote:

But that line is made up by people that have their own views and opinions about what should and shouldn't be acceptible. Just look at the UK where stuff such as BDSM can get you thrown into jail, even when both parties consent. That isn't protecting those people, it's throwing them in jail because a group of people made some arbitrary line because they thought it was "icky." That's the whole problem with moralist laws, they really don't protect anyone. It's like having a seperate law for raping a child, when rape is already a crime - it won't stop anymore kids from being raped.

Also, there have been several studies that have shown that people with more access to porn are less likely to commit sexual crimes. Sure, the study hasn't been done with drawings, but if a drawing of a kid is more likely to prevent someone from harming a real child, why make it illegal? No one was harmed in the production of the drawing, so isn't the only "victim" the person being locked away because of some moralist law that only serves to make people feel better about themselves?

On another note, the whole thing with them blaming a foreign site for the pre-release leak just seems like they're trying to take a pot-shot at foreigners. It would almost be like the British blaming the US for someone in Britain releasing a new episode of Doctor Who before it ever aired. Why would they go through all that trouble when the source is obviously Britain?

ever heard of try or die, it is a debate term that means we have to do something because the status quo is going to get us into a world of pain. there are also people who argue lolicon is a "gateway drug" (pardon the mis-use of the term but you get the idea) into actual child porn and eventually rape.
P.S. most people would agree bondage and dominatrixs type stuff is wrong.

Quote:

Agreed. What's more, the groups that tend to release these hits are usually just trying to win some internet credit by being "FIRST!" and generally produce work that is either poorly translated, poorly scanned, poorly typeset, or all of the above. If you "play by the rules" and focus on more obscure, unlicensed material, then you can argue you promote manga.

I fully agree with that comment, and the article opinion of obscure titles vs. Naruto.

Coming from a person who was active in subbing community, the original intent of scanlations and fansubbing - in old school terms - is promotion of manga and anime. The ideal way to do fansubbing/scanlations should concern to cover as much titles as possible, cover as much genres, and avoid over-subbing/scanning.

There are die hard fans who will buy the official releases, and they truly deserve the applause. I support the try before you buy idea, but reading scans and then not buy official releases (if available) is not the right mentality to have.

I do understand days have changed - Internet is amazing, and desire to consume anime/manga is worldwide. Fans need to rethink their consumption ethics, and the industry also has to rethink their means of distribution.

The latter is a very difficult problem - the book/publishing and smaller anime/movie/music creators have money numbers much smaller than the Hollywood - so Hollywood has a much stronger power in political lobbying. Hollywood is not the only problem - even some big Internet names are playing games (see Google vs the Author's Guild). It is kind of sad to see how little animators and manga artists make (~20k USD per year) when compared with Hollywood celebrities. So changes to manga distribution may come slow. However, with the rise of E-readers, who knows?

Quote:

Definitely agree with the Naruto part, but as for manga sales... please, manga is on the decline with or without uploads. The kids who are playing with their cell phones on the train instead of reading manga aren't losing interest because some otaku upload chapters on the internet.

Haha that is right too, but I still love my manga and novels Very Happy

Things are changing, but I love my old ways Wink

If reading do dies out - be that be manga, novel, or newspaper, that actually will be a sad day to humanity Crying or Very sad

Tanteikingdomkey wrote:

ever heard of try or die, it is a debate term that means we have to do something because the status quo is going to get us into a world of pain. there are also people who argue lolicon is a "gateway drug" (pardon the mis-use of the term but you get the idea) into actual child porn and eventually rape.
P.S. most people would agree bondage and dominatrixs type stuff is wrong.

The only way it would become a "gateway drug" is if it was made illegal. Think about it, what good did making stuff like marijuana illegal do for us? All it did was increase drug related deaths because the people will still find ways to get it, not to mention the over-the-top no-knock drug raids that the SWAT teams love to use. Look at how well Prohibition did when the moralists decided to take alcohol away from everybody, all it did was lead to incidents like the St. Valentine's Day massacre. To suggest that someone's mind will be warped by drawings is to make the same kind of logical fallacy that Jack Thompson makes by saying video games lead to murder.

P.S. Some people also think homosexuality is wrong, so I guess it should be made illegal by that arguement.

Also, for those interested, here's a site that lists some of the drug war victims http://www.drugwarrant.com/articles/drug-war-victim/

Quote:

"a number of artists, editors and translators" have told him off the record that the increase in erotic manga needs to be curtailed, particularly "those featuring very young-looking characters."

That's funny, I thought a bunch of mangaka actually opposed and actively protested the Tokyo bill that attempted to do the same thing?

This guy needs to get his facts straight.

EDIT: Oh wait, this guy's from the Daily Yomiuri? That explains everything.

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