Forum - View topicNewbies vs. veterans - differences in enjoyment?
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Mistmanov
 Posts: 27 Location: Belgium |
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What I've been thinking about... to what extent does your previous experience with anime determine your enjoyment of any new series?
Are there cliches that you might have enjoyed immensely if you hadn't already seen them 30 times? Can you enjoy a series if it's the very best execution of a particular type, even if you've seen the exact same story/characters/plot 10 times in the previous year? Do you rate a series a Masterpiece if any newbie would be completely awestruck by it's brilliance, even though you might have been bored because of all the familiar cliches? And related: If certain techniques really evoke an emotional response in you, and you later find out they're cliches, how does that influence your recollection of the series? What if a technique evokes a certain emotional response, and you later find out that many other series use similar techniques to inspire entirely different responses? To give an example: Elfen Lied was my first anime (besides DBZ/pokemon..), and it inspired a lot of emotions in me, but now that I've seen a bit more anime, I find myself doubting whether my appreciation for the "artistic nudity" (which is how I interpreted, and appreciated it at first viewing) isn't really a complete misinterpretation of blatant fanservice. (which also opens another question... is it even possible for anime creators to use certain techiques like artistic nudity, since they're always likely to be interpreted in the worst way possible by a sizeable portion of the fanbase?). Similarly, the fact that a whole bunch of girls wanted to live in this guys house by "coincidence" didn't bother me at all at first viewing, but after learning of the "harem" cliche, something in my subconcious wants to substract from the positive experience I had. Thoughts? |
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zawa113
 Posts: 7358 |
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I have considered this before and I think one idea stands out to me now: it takes more to impress me.
So, back when I first started and was younger and far far stupider, I thought any anime would be good, especially after having started off with Outlaw Star and Cowboy Bebop which were amazing. But rather then me going "wow these were good, I hope other anime are this good", I made the mistaken assumption that "all anime are this awesome" which continued until I saw Alien Nine. Nowadays, Outlaw Star and Cowboy Bebop still impress me and I'm able to still enjoy a lot of series because tropes are not bad, it's all a matter of how they're executed. I'd like to think that I'm not in that group of people who enjoy nothing because they turn up their nose at everything but maybe 3 series and if I ever get to that point I'd stop and say "what's the point?" and probably stop altogether. But my objective is to still enjoy myself at the very least but yeah, I'd say my standards are higher in that I used to see tons of series and go "oooh, ahhh!" all over them but now I certainly do it with fewer series per year while I probably watch more (now that I have discovered the use of the internet whereas before I had to rely on TV and DVD). And I do change my opinion on series over time, some stuff I used to think was amazing I can barely look at (Ranma 1/2 stands out in mind, it was one of my gateway drugs and then I got into Maison Ikkoku and could barely stomach to look at Ranma 1/2 any more because the quality difference to me was just too vast). But come to think of it, I found things average back then too, so maybe I haven't changed at all, tough to tell. Now, I will say one very notable thing for me personally: the bigger my physical collection gets, the less I can enjoy it. Why? Because it's so much harder to re-watch stuff I enjoyed, especially if I add more stuff I also really enjoyed. And I'm not necessarily good on watching everything in my collection entirely timely anyway, and don't forget I play games, that takes time too and I don't want to split my attention and enjoy either one half-heartedly. It might look more impressive, but it seems like its used less at the same time, which is why I do sell off stuff I hated that were terrible blind buys. But man, I remember when I had less than 10 series in my collection and I'd watch them all the damn time (same for when I had less than 30 manga in my collection, an era I can hardly believe existed now that I'm pushing a good 50 series, at least 12 movies, and over 400 manga, that one exploded the most) |
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ailblentyn
 Posts: 1688 Location: body in Ohio, heart in Sydney |
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a worthwhile general question, i think.
my feeling is that it can work in different ways. as you say, something can seem fresh or be completely misinterpreted by a newcomer, who then goes on to be a bit embarrassed by their initial enthusiasm. (i could give embarrassing examples of my own, but i wouldn't want to offend those who genuinely like the series in question...) but in another way, i think i've become less dismissive than i was when i had seen less anime. the fact that i have pegs to hang things on makes things interesting in a way that if i were completely ignorant i would just dismiss as rubbish. i see the same thing with my partner, who hasn't seen much anime and thus has no time for anything that isn't great. she loved "haibane renmei", "whisper of the heart", "hols prince of the sun", and few other greats - things that hold their heads up in the company of any kind of entertainment - but has no time for crap. |
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albert35077
 Posts: 36 Location: Hanceville, Al |
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I think the most enjoyment is when an individual is inbetween being a "noob" and "veteran." Because you'll have some experiance and know what to look for, but you wont be quite so fed up with all the cliche's.
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TheTheory
 Posts: 1029 Location: Central PA |
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Anime I've seen in the past definitely has an influence on the anime I am watching now or will watch. The relationship, though, is a bit hazy. The best I can explain it, though, is with a book example. As a kid I loved The Boxcar Children. The story and the characters seemed fresh and amazing to me. Now that I've been reading books for 20-some years (I'm 26) I would look at The BOxcar Children differently. I remember going back to re-read the first Boxcar Children novel when I was 17 or 18 and just being appalled at how pedestrian everything about it was. Most entertainment media are going to be similar.
Hell no. Rate series exactly how you felt about them. Ratings aren't a promo blurb solely for people new to the medium. Ratings exist for newbies and moderate watchers and rabid fans who see every series under the sun and hardened otaku and everyone in between. Just rate what you feel and everything will fall into place. Also, I would argue there is no shame in changing your rating as you get "more experienced" in the ways of anime (or whatever medium one might be consuming). For example, I rated Magical Shopping Arcade Abenobashi as being "Excellent" after I first watched it. It wasn't my first series, but it was one of the earliest anime I watched. Now, after I've seen 100-odd series I have settled it in at a solid "Good". My sample size is large enough now that I don't expect it to drop any further, but my initial reaction was definitely overblown because of when I had seen it in my anime timeline.
I don't worry about that. If I had initially misinterpreted a "cliche" or widely-used trope, I'll simply brush off my love of the series as being largely due to nostalgia. I don't apologize for that at all.
If you view it as artistic, then it is artistic. If you don't view it as artistic then it is fan service. It is a critical fallacy to look at what the creators "intended"... all that you can judge is how you responded to it. There will always be discussion among anime fans whether a series like Elfen Lied is "artistic" or "fan service"... but just because a lot of people think it is fan service doesn't mean it actually is. I personally think that Elfen Lied is a remarkably artistic series... but someone will disagree with me before too long. That's alright.
Art isn't about pacifying large portions of a fanbase. Art is about completing a creative venture the way matches the creator's vision. Look at the Sistine Chapel. Michaelangelo didn't paint all the nudity away to keep from titilating or offending people. He painted it the way he envisioned it. Nudity has a place in art--and to keep nudity out of anime under fears of "fan service" is a compromise.
Look at it like this: if you don't like the "harem" cliche, then perhaps you should think a bit less of Elfen Lied. However, I think there are worthwhile reasons for having those females wanting to live with the guy. Granted, that isn't real life--but art doesn't have to reflect life. If I was creating a series like Elfen Lied, it would be much easier if all of the characters were under 1 roof. Look at US sitcoms... they often keep the main characters in one house. It is an easy way to contain everyone so that they're there and ready to play their roles--rather than having to invent reasons to keep on bringing them over. That isn't lazy writing... that is just focusing on the more important part of the story. |
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albert35077
Posts: 36 Location: Hanceville, Al |
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Also it seems to me that many of the things you mention have more to do with a person's age and maturity level than how many animes or mangas he or she has watched/read.
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Zin5ki
 Posts: 6680 Location: London, UK |
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The goodness of something need not be diminished by the presence of other good things. Certainly, marks for originality can no longer be granted to a successful work if similar titles exist, but something's originality—as abstracted from the qualities through which it affects one positively—seems to bear little merit per se. |
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EireformContinent
 Posts: 977 Location: Łódź/Poland (The Promised Land) |
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For a newbie everything seems to be marvellous. When I was watching Sailor Moon, MKR or Saint Seiya first time I was totally impressed. Now the only feeling I got for them is sentiment and just because of that from time to time I re-watch episode or two. I need really strong recommendation to pick up new magical girls series.
Recently I was thinking about changing my scores on MAL. Oban Star Racers- my first "new" anime equal to Mononoke? No way... On the other hand I should be justice: every series get its point shortly after I finish it and it should stay so. Of course now I would score most of them in a different way, but I don't think that is caused by discovering that something were used in similar shows. My opinions weren't influenced just by animes that I have watched-three years passed by and I and my tastes changed a lot. Luckily three years ago I found mostly worth watching titles, but there were exceptions- I wonder how could I enjoy Ai yori Aoshi- It's a perfect example of things that you described- It was my first "harem" show and even if I wanted to kill slowly and cruelly main protagonists I enjoyed it. Now I'm allergic to harem at all. |
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Mister V
 Posts: 1000 |
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I'm not really a veteran, so I'll tread carefully, relying on the experience I have.
I think you learn to enjoy the details, since there are less and less major "discoveries" - new plot elements, character. You qualify a series as "original" like reviewers - in the sense that it takes familiar elements and does something even marginally new with them. Not that it subtracts from your enjoyment. And there's no need to become an uppity self-proclaimed connoisseur, either, and start looking for deep meanings that are more likely to come out of your own id (and you know what lives there, right). You might develop more discriminating taste though, because your experience allows you to more objectively compare series quality, at least in theory; but then if you count several "landmark" favourites among your growing collection, then your perception might at times be as skewed as a newbie's. Freely admitted subjectivity is not a bad thing, either. On clichés, since it's one of my favourite words, well... of course, it's relative to your taste, but you could start enjoying some clichés more than others, even despite knowing that it's still a cliché. Maybe this condition passes after some time, and I'm still not that experienced, I don't know, I can only observe facts. You could say that some seem less cringeworthy, and you might perhaps call them tropes instead of clichés. On ratings, I'd disagree somewhat with TheTheory above. I've thought about it, and I feel that ratings aren't something I should revise, because from the very beginning they're based on the feeling I get right after finishing the show, and so it would be unreasonable to start re-evaluating everything, since that would destroy the one common basis the ratings have (or, for a more "objective" rating, I'd have to rewatch everything once again). This is, of course, my personal system, or perhaps a systematic lack of it. |
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Mushi-Man
 Posts: 1537 Location: KCMO |
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I can see, to an extent, the point you are making here but I think for the most part it doesn't apply to me. In fact I think I have grown to enjoy anime more now that I've watched a wider variety of anime. For example: when i first started watching anime and a friend of mine tried to show me Lupin the 3rd I couldn't get into it because of how wacky it was and the art style it used. But as time went on I became more excepting of this weird style and now I love Lupin. And sometimes I start of by really liking some shows and then grow tired of them, but that doesn't mean I don't like the tropes they used. Like I use to really be into DBZ but as time went on I got tired of it and just moved on. But I still watch plenty of shonen fighting series like Yu Yu Hakusho and Soul Eater. I agree with classicalzawa in that it's not if an anime uses these common tropes and cliches, but how they use them. A series can be the most cliche and over used story ever, but if it's still executed well I'll still enjoy it just as much.
I think the diminishing interest in certain series has less to do with the over exhaustion of cliches and more to do with maturing tastes. As time goes on everyone's tastes will change and become much more refined and crafted into our own unique flavor. So things that seemed awesome a few years ago could easily fall to the way side as time goes on, simply because your interests are else where. |
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Youkai Warrior
 Posts: 505 Location: Sarayashiki |
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I agree with this somwhat. But it doesn't always have to do with maturing. With me, it was more like I realized a certain anime wasn't all that interesting. An example: Several years ago I used to like Beyblade and DNAngel. I had gotten into them when I was in a "gung-ho about anime" phase, wanting to get my hands on everything anime. A few years later after reuniting with old anime favorites, and my gung-honess died down, I realized that neither Beybalde or DNAngel were all that interesting. There are a few anime that I feel this way about, but I used those two as an example because I recently sold them. |
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FaytLein
 Posts: 1260 Location: Williamsburg, VA |
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Well newbie vs. vets can be a horribly one sided question, since vets tend to be obstinate in their mindset, and lead to major headache with newer fans try to come into the fandom, with both sides slinging arrows.
But, for my two cents, it all pretty much comes down to your mentality when it comes to entertainment. If you can still find the same level of enjoyment from your first shonen show as your 500th, you should be OK. Not everything should be subjected to mass scrutiny, entertainment should be enjoyed first, analyzed second. |
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Redbeard 101
Oscar the Grouch
Forums Superstar  Posts: 16961 |
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I have to concur with my associate heh. Being a veteran personally in no way diminishes my level of enjoyment now. Just because I've seen good anime already does not mean that new good things are worth less. Good is still good yes? As zin5ki mentioned truly original works may not happen as often but to me the important part is does the story work. Regardless if it's original or not, It could be the oldest story plot in the world but if it's used effectively it can still be good and enjoyable. Heck if anything being a "veteran" helps me enjoy good shows even more. I've seen my share so when I see a new one I can enjoy it that much more for being able to discover yet another good show after all these years. |
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wandering-dreamer
 Posts: 1733 |
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I've only been a manga/anime fan for 5 years, but I spent those five years not only growing up but also reading tons of other books as well as manga/anime. So there are some series that I like less now that I'm older (like say, Fruits Basket) and there are a few things that I like even more now. I do have a better guess of what I will/won't like, but I'm still surprised and love being surprised and loving something more than I expected to. So, I have the experience to pick out what I think will interest me but haven't lost the novelty of being surprised yet.
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Kruszer
 Posts: 7991 Location: Minnesota, USA |
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In my experience, I'd say either you start narrow and get progressively broader tastes or start fairly broad-ranged and then gradually get narrower until you can't enjoy anything at all anymore. The cycle is the same only reversed depending on the person. It's better to be the former (like me) and end up with broader taste than the latter in my opinion.
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