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tuxedocat
Joined: 14 Dec 2009
Posts: 2183
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Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:49 pm
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Seljuk wrote: | Durararararararararararara is far from the only good show this season guys, come on. Bakatesto is easily the funniest show that's come out in a long while, and Dance in the vampire loli is really awesome too. Depending on if you like moe, Sora no woto is up there as well.
Throw in some shows that are at least worth watching too- Hanamaru, Ookikamakushi, Cobra, Oomori Himari (if you're into eechi)- and this season is actually really good. |
Please explain how any of these shows you mention have as broad an audience appeal as Durarara? Almost all of them are niche appeal shows, especially all the harems. I'm not going to watch a harem or ecchi show. Those are targeted toward men and I'm female. Moe is a niche thing, and a show like Cobra is going to have limited appeal because of its retro style. Hanamara is cute, but not everyone is into the "cute" thing.
The only shows currently streaming that I'm enjoying as much as Durarara is the glut of Gundam series, and though I'm loving all things Gundam I can fully admit that mecha is niche as well. So no. Durarara is the best show this season, nice art, good storytelling, with plenty of "gateway anime" potential.
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Blood-
![](/bbs/phpBB2/images/subscriber-silver.png) Bargain Hunter
Joined: 07 Mar 2009
Posts: 24006
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Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 4:10 pm
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tuxedocat wrote: | Durarara is the best show this season, nice art, good storytelling, with plenty of "gateway anime" potential. |
I readily agree that Durarara's production values are top notch - it's a beauty to look at. Good storytelling? Mmm, that's debatable. For example, what story was advanced in the last episode? Well, we learned that Bartender Dude has anger issues that go way back. We learned that his enmity with A-hole Dude goes back to high school (I guess). We learned that Celty might be a little sweet on Bartender? That's about it. Is that good story-telling? Durarara has shown us flashes of interesting stuff, but for me it doesn't seem to be building towards anything. And keeping long gaps in between advancing the various story lines isn't working for me. What's going on with Suicide Girl these days? Will I care by the time we get back to her (if we do)?
Don't get me wrong, I'm obviously interested enough to continue watching, but I also disagree with the show's supposed "gateway" potential. If an already converted anime fan like myself is getting impatient with Durarara's fits'n'starts narrative structure, why do you assume a newbie would be enamoured?
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erinfinnegan
ANN Columnist
Joined: 31 Jan 2005
Posts: 598
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Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 4:13 pm
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LaFreccia wrote: |
erinfinnegan wrote: | Honestly, the guys in Ristorante Paradiso are a tad old for my tastes. |
That's the idea, though. Older guys (with glasses). Personally I thought that aspect was hilarious. I also thought it was extremely refreshing to have a show about adults. |
Being 30 myself, I think 40-something guys are probably alright, but I'm still weirded out by 50+. But not so weirded out that I couldn't watch Ristorante Paradiso...
Someone I know is doing a panel at Anime Boston this year called something like "Yaoi without the Bishies" it should be really interesting!
vashfanatic wrote: |
mightymightchell wrote: | I personally cannot believe that "stream-worthy" has been added to Shelf Life. The anime industry already has few enough people actually buying anime because of downloading and streaming and now even ANN is pretty much advertising streaming of even more anime!... |
It's true that you don't want streaming to replace DVD purchases - but I can't really see that happening. [snip]...No, what streaming should hopefully replace are the fansubs we watched to preview anime before we buy it. |
First, I didn't invent the streaming rating - Bamboo reviewed some streaming shows in the past. Second, I am so totally buying Glass Mask 2005.
Streaming is a great way to test the market to find out if putting out a DVD is worthwhile. It's also great as a marketing tool.
PetrifiedJello wrote: |
Erin wrote: | I hate over-reliance on flashbacks. It's not strong narrative structure.
As you might remember, I loved Baccano!. |
*bangs head on desk.
Young lady, sometimes you confuse me to no end. I'm at a complete loss on how these two statements don't relate to each other, especially given Baccano was nothing but flashback episodes given the story is told through the vice president (whose name escapes me) and Carol. |
There's a difference between a framing device and a flashback. I think in Baccano the story was framed by Carol's investigation - and I didn't like the first episode because of it. I'd rather see the series begin with everyone getting on the train.
Not all flashbacks are created equal. The flashback to the boat in Baccano is a lot better than flashbacks in Harry Potter and Ristorante Paradiso. The boat flashback in Baccano involves many of main characters, and it takes an entire episode, and it's vital to the plot, and it moves the story forward.
J.K. Rowling's flashbacks drive me up a wall because I love the protagonists but don't really care about their parents or what happened in their parents' time at school. If Lillian and James were so important, just devote a whole book to the past! I hated the "Pensieve". It was like the story structure was so bad Rowling had to invent a magic item to fix it. I'd much rather have read one entire book from Tom Riddle's point of view than suffer through dozens of Dumbledore's flashbacks.
For the record, I don't mind flashbacks in shonen anime. When the protagonist is up against a tough opponent, you usually get the opponent's backstory about why they [play a sport, are a ninja, became an ultimate fighter, etc.] and why they must win and how everything is riding on this fight. Then when they lose to the protagonist you feel real bad about it. If Ristorante Paradiso were a competitive cooking show with Nicoletta's opponents having that kind of flashback I'd love every minute of it.
PetrifiedJello wrote: |
Ristorante Paradiso...In all honesty, having read the commentary three times, I still can't tell if you liked it or not. |
Ha ha! Maybe I don't know myself. I like certain aspects of the show, and I liked some episodes better than others. If it came out on DVD I'd probably give it a "Rental" rating. (Depending on the release and the extras.)
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tuxedocat
Joined: 14 Dec 2009
Posts: 2183
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Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 4:22 pm
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Blood- wrote: |
tuxedocat wrote: | Durarara is the best show this season, nice art, good storytelling, with plenty of "gateway anime" potential. |
I readily agree that Durarara's production values are top notch - it's a beauty to look at. Good storytelling? Mmm, that's debatable. For example, what story was advanced in the last episode? Well, we learned that Bartender Dude has anger issues that go way back. We learned that his enmity with A-hole Dude goes back to high school (I guess). We learned that Celty might be a little sweet on Bartender? That's about it. Is that good story-telling? Durarara has shown us flashes of interesting stuff, but for me it doesn't seem to be building towards anything. And keeping long gaps in between advancing the various story lines isn't working for me. What's going on with Suicide Girl these days? Will I care by the time we get back to her (if we do)?
Don't get me wrong, I'm obviously interested enough to continue watching, but I also disagree with the show's supposed "gateway" potential. If an already converted anime fan like myself is getting impatient with Durarara's fits'n'starts narrative structure, why do you assume a newbie would be enamoured? |
The same way newbies got enamored with Cowboy Bebop back in the day. Sure, the "mushroom" episode and the "Don't-leave-stuff-in-the-fridge" episode didn't do much to further the plot, but they were funny.
And personally, I wanted to know more about the dude who was throwing around those vending machines. Maybe that episode didn't further the plot, per se, but it did develop one of the central characters. Character development is a key element in storytelling, IMO.
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Blood-
![](/bbs/phpBB2/images/subscriber-silver.png) Bargain Hunter
Joined: 07 Mar 2009
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Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 4:33 pm
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But what was developed about his character? Again, all we really found out was that his anger gives him great strength, that he's been that way since a child and that using that strength can cause him self-injury. You really consider that deep character development? That isn't very much to convey over a 24-minute time span.
Durarara!! is definitely not a series I would spring on somebody new to anime. I mean, a newbie COULD end up liking it, but there is nothing about the series that suggests it stands a better than average chance of converting somebody.
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PetrifiedJello
Joined: 11 Mar 2009
Posts: 3782
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Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 4:44 pm
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erinfinnegan wrote: | I think in Baccano the story was framed by Carol's investigation - and I didn't like the first episode because of it. I'd rather see the series begin with everyone getting on the train. |
Ah, so we viewed this series differently. I had expected interruptions throughout the series from Carol's point of view, but never got it, thus, was annoyed with the delivery. I guess it seemed rather pointless to see the "cliffhangers", only to know how it turns out thanks to the framing.
I'll be re-watching Baccano again some time in the future, letting the recent viewing slowly leak from memory. I'll try viewing from the framing approach to see if my view changes.
Quote: | If it came out on DVD I'd probably give it a "Rental" rating. (Depending on the release and the extras.) |
Really? Well, that just put your commentary onto the "I like it" side. Rental's better than Perishable.
Let's hope that "if" turns into a "when".
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erinfinnegan
ANN Columnist
Joined: 31 Jan 2005
Posts: 598
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Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 4:48 pm
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Blood- wrote: | I guess for me, L'il Slugger was the throughline for all the PA episodes so it made the series seem more tightly knit than Durarara!! seems so far. |
What about the Black Rider? She's like the L'il Slugger of this show. I mean, they explained what she's doing there... but it's all building to something.
Did you miss the hints about the weird sushi restaurant? Simon isn't "just there" - he stopped a big fight - he might be the toughest guy in town.
I think it's all building to one huge fight; Simon vs. the guy who throws vending machines vs. The Black Rider vs. the kidnappers vs. the "Dollars" gang vs. that yokai dude. What are those scientists up to? Something is going down!
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tuxedocat
Joined: 14 Dec 2009
Posts: 2183
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Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 5:04 pm
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Blood- wrote: | But what was developed about his character? Again, all we really found out was that his anger gives him great strength, that he's been that way since a child and that using that strength can cause him self-injury. You really consider that deep character development? That isn't very much to convey over a 24-minute time span. |
We also found out a lot about his relationships to other characters, why he has the rivalry with another of the central characters, that he is basically a sweet guy but maybe not the brightest bulb on the block, plus the episode was funny. I was entertained. Which is what matters to me. We will just have to agree to disagree.
Blood- wrote: | Durarara!! is definitely not a series I would spring on somebody new to anime. I mean, a newbie COULD end up liking it, but there is nothing about the series that suggests it stands a better than average chance of converting somebody. |
You and I must run in different circles. My group read a lot of books. Durarara (and Baccano!) are structured a lot like novels, where the information is not always presented in a linear way. The people I've been introducing to anime really liked Baccano, and are enjoying Durarara as well.
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tuxedocat
Joined: 14 Dec 2009
Posts: 2183
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Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 5:07 pm
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erinfinnegan wrote: |
Blood- wrote: | I guess for me, L'il Slugger was the throughline for all the PA episodes so it made the series seem more tightly knit than Durarara!! seems so far. |
What about the Black Rider? She's like the L'il Slugger of this show. I mean, they explained what she's doing there... but it's all building to something.
Did you miss the hints about the weird sushi restaurant? Simon isn't "just there" - he stopped a big fight - he might be the toughest guy in town.
I think it's all building to one huge fight; Simon vs. the guy who throws vending machines vs. The Black Rider vs. the kidnappers vs. the "Dollars" gang vs. that yokai dude. What are those scientists up to? Something is going down! |
Plus the freaky, shadowy "slasher", who we know nothing about so far.
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Blood-
![](/bbs/phpBB2/images/subscriber-silver.png) Bargain Hunter
Joined: 07 Mar 2009
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Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 5:11 pm
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Oh I didn't mean to suggest that the various storylets we've been introduced to in Durarara!! aren't building to their individual climaxes: i.e. Celty's search for her head, etc. I meant that taken as a whole, I wasn't getting a sense of build given the way one story will be introduced in one episode and then we don't hear anything about it again for a while. With Paranoid Agent, the question of, "What the hell is the deal with L'il Slugger anyway?" formed the central spine and waiting to see what the ultimate answer would be sort of informed each episode.
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Astribulus
Joined: 05 Dec 2005
Posts: 15
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Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 5:23 pm
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tuxedocat wrote: |
Blood- wrote: | But what was developed about his character? |
We also found out a lot about his relationships to other characters, why he has the rivalry with another of the central characters, that he is basically a sweet guy but maybe not the brightest bulb on the block, plus the episode was funny. I was entertained. Which is what matters to me. We will just have to agree to disagree. |
The episode also gave us a look at Shizuo's greatest fears, losing control of his strength and pushing away those he cares for. The scenes with the bakery lady when they were young and with his brother in the present day illustrated that quite effectively.
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tuxedocat
Joined: 14 Dec 2009
Posts: 2183
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Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 5:25 pm
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Blood- wrote: | Oh I didn't mean to suggest that the various storylets we've been introduced to in Durarara!! aren't building to their individual climaxes: i.e. Celty's search for her head, etc. I meant that taken as a whole, I wasn't getting a sense of build given the way one story will be introduced in one episode and then we don't hear anything about it again for a while. With Paranoid Agent, the question of, "What the hell is the deal with L'il Slugger anyway?" formed the central spine and waiting to see what the ultimate answer would be sort of informed each episode. |
I'm guessing that's because this story is structured with more episodes (24?), so the pacing is different. In that case the narrative still has some ground to cover...
...And since Paranoia Agent is being brought up so much, I have to mention that I would love to see a license rescue on this title. My local used DVD store has a beat-up box set for sale, and they want $80 for it!! A blu-ray edition rescue would be very welcome, sort of like what were getting with FLCL...
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Blood-
![](/bbs/phpBB2/images/subscriber-silver.png) Bargain Hunter
Joined: 07 Mar 2009
Posts: 24006
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Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 5:49 pm
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tuxedocat wrote: |
Blood- wrote: | Durarara!! is definitely not a series I would spring on somebody new to anime. I mean, a newbie COULD end up liking it, but there is nothing about the series that suggests it stands a better than average chance of converting somebody. |
You and I must run in different circles. My group read a lot of books. Durarara (and Baccano!) are structured a lot like novels, where the information is not always presented in a linear way. The people I've been introducing to anime really liked Baccano, and are enjoying Durarara as well. |
But your individual experience with your group of friends doesn't necessarily hold true for a wider sampling. Plus, you have already indicated they have seen Baccano! which I think does have more gateway potential because it is set in the U.S. and the subject matter (gangsters) would be interesting to a lot of non-anime viewers. Again, I'm not saying that a complete anime virgin WOULDN'T like Durarara!! just that it is not a property that screams Anime 101 for Newbs! to me.
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ittoujuu
Joined: 25 Sep 2009
Posts: 164
Location: SoCal
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Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 6:30 pm
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Just wanted to say a quick thanks for bringing up Tortov. I remembered hearing about it years back, but at the time I thought "ah, this is something I'll never be able to see." But when it came up in the review, I knew that it must be available somewhere. Crunchyroll requires an anime pass to watch the series, but I was able to find it elsewhere, and thought it was a really charming set of shorts. I only wish each episode was longer. Ten minute episodes in the same style would really be a treat. I think I'll give some of the animator's other works a spin too.
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tuxedocat
Joined: 14 Dec 2009
Posts: 2183
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Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 6:50 pm
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Blood- wrote: |
tuxedocat wrote: |
Blood- wrote: | Durarara!! is definitely not a series I would spring on somebody new to anime. I mean, a newbie COULD end up liking it, but there is nothing about the series that suggests it stands a better than average chance of converting somebody. |
You and I must run in different circles. My group read a lot of books. Durarara (and Baccano!) are structured a lot like novels, where the information is not always presented in a linear way. The people I've been introducing to anime really liked Baccano, and are enjoying Durarara as well. |
But your individual experience with your group of friends doesn't necessarily hold true for a wider sampling. Plus, you have already indicated they have seen Baccano! which I think does have more gateway potential because it is set in the U.S. and the subject matter (gangsters) would be interesting to a lot of non-anime viewers. Again, I'm not saying that a complete anime virgin WOULDN'T like Durarara!! just that it is not a property that screams Anime 101 for Newbs! to me. |
Then what, in your opinion, would? The sampling from this season seems to be all niche titles and Durarara. At least, as far as what we can get legally streaming...
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