Forum - View topicNEWS: "Made in Japan" to fight anime piracy
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Craeyst Raygal
 Posts: 1383 Location: In the garage, beneath a 1970 MGB GT. |
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Hey Sam, if you're an Ohio fan who loves anime, I'm surprised you've never made the trip up to Lakewood to rent from Retropolis. Open Wednesday through Sunday, Retropolis is Ohio's main (if not only) anime rental shop. They stay pretty up to date with the latest releases (usually they're about a month, two months behind) and the deal is $3 per DVD, $2 per VHS, and you get them for three days. But if you rent on a Saturday, you get them 'til Wednesday since they're closed Monday & Tuesday.
Compared to a lot of other hobbies I'm involved in (slot car racing, model railroading, weasel prostitution) anime is pretty inexpensive. I buy maybe two DVD's a month, and about the same in manga. Compared to the fact that a night of slot car racing usually sets me back 10-20 bucks in tires, braid juice, entry fees, and other supplies, replacing anyone of my N Scale locomotives would run me between 50-150 dollars, and weasel traps are about 275 a pop, I'd say I'm doing just fine on my budget with anime. |
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Joe Mello
 Posts: 2315 Location: Online Terminal |
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I don't own bootlegs. Hell, I don't own any anime DVD's either. All my anime DVDs are either promotional stuff or the Robotech DVD's my dad bought. I do have three fansubs (Digi Charat, Gunslinger Girl, and the 20 yrs of Macross special) and a boatload of OSTs.
I say that if people watch fansubs of shows that blow, than they aren't going to buy the real DVD's. However, I think that people normally don't watch fansubs of sucky anime. Normally, you would think that they're going to watch shows that they'll buy the DVD's of anyway. |
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bluechibi
Posts: 137 |
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I hate it when I join in on a discussion late.
Okay let me try and remember some of the things I just read. - I think this is a good idea - not every person who enjoys anime is an otaku and can easily spot pirated goods, becase of the way things have been going over the years, it gets harder to spot them, not easier. - The whole "I'm poor I need fansubs, so I'm exempt from any guilt" thing is just so stupid. There are other means to watch anime, tv, renting, borrowing off friends, free preview episodes, convention, clubs, etc. - The whole fansub debate; "I'm poor" = read above "Anime XYZ will never be release" = Yeah they said that about DNA2 and Azumanga and many others, but they got released. "I like to check out a series before I buy it" = Then why did they have to fansub the whole series and why did you have to download it all? Couldnt you 'check it out' another way? "It'll take years to be released here" = Well here in the UK we got used to waiting ages for US movies and series, sometimes it takes years to cross the pond. Though this has been steadily picking up, remember I believe the Laputa redub was done in 1999 yet we only got it the beginning of 2004. Talk about slow 
"the only animes I download I always end up buying" that's not true, or atleast the very vast majority of people use that as an excuse. All the people I questioned when DN2 was announced, those that had the fansubs had no interest in buying the DVD, though stated they would have if they hadnt already seen it. "fansubs do little harm to the industry here, okay?" then why was it so easy for me to create a collection of over 100GB, 250 hours of anime and yet only a tiny percentage (well less than 1% and believe me I tried to get non-released) of that were animes still yet to be picked up. Some of it was actually dubs, Viz, ADV, Pioneer, Manga, almost all of them I managed to find. Thanks to fansubs, cheaper DVD players, DVD writers, more affordable and widely used broadband, you could easily find any anime and possibly either the dub or sub. Heck I;ve even come accross ones with commentary straight from the DVD. Oh and I ended up deleting my collection last week. I took only a few months and I had little trouble in getting any anime series already owned, it wouldnt have been any trouble at all to copy them all onto DVD and sell or rent them, either in the UK or in Japan or the rest of East Asia. If people are watching fansubs, then they dont need to buy the series, they dont need to rent the series, they dont need to watch it on tv, they dont need to see it at cons or clubs or free with magazines. By the time an anime is on TV here, people especially fans have no interest at all in watching it because they've already got it on their computers. So the viewing figures arent so attractive as they could have been. So when an anime is fansubbed, it's not like everyone will delete it when the companies pick it up, not at all, it continues on, just like you can get fansubs dating back 4 years (one of the ones I saw recently) I think the Kiddy Grade series was advertised here on ANN? If I wanted to I could probably download the first ten episode in a couple of hours while I have my dinner and watch tv. That's just how it is now, and it's getting easier and easier. Then I could burn it onto DVD and show my brothers, then my friends and would probably make copies for my internet friends and so on. Of course I wouldnt dare do that but if people can do is so easily, then they will. Then it's poor Bandai  poor FujiTV poor FUNimation and poor ANN as it's funded by the companies.
hmm I should have just wrote "blah blah blah" and it would have had exactly the same affect
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Joe Mello
Posts: 2315 Location: Online Terminal |
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Well, gee, maybe we should just eliminate all forms of media except for one and get all our information and entertainment from there. I'm sure that will eliminate the problem, won't it? Let's face it. Fansubs are neither good nor bad. They don't care how they are used because they don't have feelings. It's the people who make them who could be classified as "good" or "bad" (even though they are probably both) and that is a debate that has been raging since the beginning of philosophical thought. That's it. End of story. I win. |
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bluechibi
Posts: 137 |
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perhaps we should talk about the ethics of piracy and not just fansubs. Perhaps the latests hollywood movies especially here in the UK you can download and view well before the cinema release. Infact my brother came across 2 pirated DVDs, very good quality with offical covers, the screeners on them were easily downloaded off the internet.
I remember pro-fansub people would always say those in the anime industry in Japan didn't care about piracy or fansubs internationally or in the western world. Of course over the last few years I've heard nothing but the complete opposite from these industry leaders in interviews and at cons. They're losing all their excuses, all they're have left is their pathetic "I'm poor" excuse. As for you first question I have no idea what you're on about, I'm just saying that things have changed over the years. People can now afford DVD burners as well as many DVD players so the temptation of downloading movies and animes is even greater. You're no longer confined to your little computer to watch you hundred of hours of free anime. Because broadband is becoming more popular and cheaper and with the availability of higher connection speed, the size of files are no longer a real issue and you can download very good quality movies and fansubs. I never said fansubs were evil, I'm just not in denial, I know they affect the industry and I get fed up with people lying and making excuses. I want the anime industry to be better and if you were really honest, fansubs no longer serve any benefit to the industry at all. How do I know it affects the industry? Well one of the anime movies I downloaded I shared with a friend, now that she's seen it and has it, she doesnt feel the need to buy the dvd anymore like she plan to or even bother to watch it on Toonami. Okay I was to blame but this is just one example where by downloading a fansub I lost them one customer. Including myself because if there were no fansubs I would have bought it too. So proof enough that it actually does and I'm sure this has happened to many 1000s of others. |
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darkhunter
 Posts: 2992 Location: Los Angelas |
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Eliminate all form of media? I think you mean elimated all form of illegal media and get our information and entertaiment the legit way. If someone bootleg your work and sold it for cheaper, I don't think you'll be happy either. People just want anime and they want it for free....it's just human nature. All you have to do is hang out in those fansub chatroom (irc or forum) and you can hear the discussion by leecher which is usually anti-american anime companies. Some might tell you they own some dvd but the majority of people thier are happy they can get fansub instead of buying dvd. Most people who used it for preview will likely download the rest of the series if they like it rather than wait for it to be released in the U.S. They might buy it when it comes out on DVD but they already seen it and own it and the quality is exceptional. There's always exception though but like I said, have a discussion and you'll find that most leecher are the same. Supporter of fansub usually turn the blind eye because they'll still happy getting thier anime for free. If they're getting it for free, why complain about it. If fansubber wanted to help promote anime, than just sub the first 5 episode. They can't just sub the first 5 episode though because they'll get countless email by unhappy leecher who demand to see the rest of it or they will find another group. The fansub group want to please thier supporter so they are more pressure into finishing a series without getting sue in the U.S. (not licensed yet) DVDripping group are even worse. |
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TiredGamer
 Posts: 246 Location: Florida |
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First, "piracy" is attacking ships on the high seas. "Illegal and/or unauthorized copying" is what is really being talked about here. It's really a misnomer and spin to make copying like killing and looting. Illegal selling and unauthorized copying are nothing like piracy and I really wish people would stop acting like they are. (Whether profits from Hong Kong selling fund the Triads is besides the point, that's a whole different set of laws called racketeering.)
Second, people need to wake up to the reality that they never had the right to distribute any of these anime/manga series in the first place. All the major countries signed treaties giving copyright protection to works produced elsewhere. It was called the Berne Convention, look it up. Japanese companies have always had right to go after anyone distributing their work without permission. The international sales potential has just not been a big consideration to these companies because their work was promoted for Japanese audiences. With a poor economy and rising interest worldwide in anime and manga, of course Japanese companies are now going to take heed of unauthorized copying and illegal selling. Expect to see more companies creating North American and European distribution branches to cut out the middleman. That or they'll simply buy out localizing companies. Hey, what do you know, that's already happening... Third, there have been no real studies of how sampling copyrighted works changes sales models. No-one has examined people who buy bootlegged work or download copyrighted works for their buying habits. It's complete spin to blame poor sales on something companies (and people) don't even rightly understand. It is an endless argument to blame or protect unauthorized copying and illegal selling. Fourth, prices are based on local economics and not any attempt to screw you over. Cost plus margin is something businesses have been working out for years, it's really not some mad attempt to make anime too expensive. There are even actual legitimate releases in parts of Southeast Asia that go for $10US per DVD with 2-3 episodes. It just so happens that the costs for US companies plus margin plus the margin for distributors and retailers equals about $20-$30US per DVD with 2-4 episodes. You can make that working about 3 hours flipping hamburgers in the US. If it's too expensive for you, then I suggest you either get a job, go to school, or both. Or just wait a few years for today's latest title to hit the bargin bin (or the used DVD store). No-one has a right to make the businesses of the world accomodate their particular needs for entertainment at the price they desire. It is, afterall, entertainment and not, say, food or water or clothing. Finally, the morals of it all. Morality is subjective and personal. The sinners can't convince the saints, and the saints won't always convert the sinners. In the end it is good enough that one examines their consequences and makes a decision. You can only present your side and offer the facts, and if people won't believe you then that is just how it is. Thus my rant (or was it a thesis paper?) comes to an end. 
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Kazuki-san
 Posts: 2251 Location: Houston, TX |
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Err.. it's called "piracy" because the people who make boots steal from other people, just like "pirates" did. I don't equate piracy with killing, but it is stealing. Look up the definition of piracy,and what is meaning #2: The unauthorized use or reproduction of copyrighted or patented material. |
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TiredGamer
Posts: 246 Location: Florida |
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If copying is theft, then you've just stolen $2.92 ($.04/word) from me.
Piracy is just a sexier way of saying "unauthorized reproduction, copying, or distribution". It's a colloquial term that dictionaries picked up because they do those sorts of things. The reason I dislike it being used is because it seems to criminalize harmless copying: Joey copies his Metallica CD for his cousin to listen to, he must be a MUSIC PIRATE! Really, let's criminalize people who deserve it and leave the kids alone. We could be here for years debating whether works of the mind are property or not. It's an argument that is way too steeped in the idea that everything has a price (capitalism) or everything must be free (socialism). And since this board doesn't deserve to see that kind of argument... politics = bad on anime boards.
Let's just leave it by saying that in the end, the individual must ask themselves "did I enjoy this? is it worth rewarding the creators?" and wrestle their own demons. If people want to be cheapskates, let them. And if companies die because of it, that is the risk of doing business. Trying to come up with better and newer ways of controlling what we can all watch, listen, and read is just... dictorial silliness. You gotta believe there are more than enough decent, honest people in the world to support decent, honest companies (and creators). That make any sense?
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Kazuki-san
Posts: 2251 Location: Houston, TX |
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Actually I didn't steal your words, I quoted them, giving you credit where credit is due. If I was to take your words and pass them off as mine, that would be stealing (a la plagarism)
Technically that would be "unauthorized reproduction, copying, or distribution." I personally don't see any harm in that, it's the people that make money off such things that bothers me. And what of the people that take someone's work, copy it and then sell it for profit. Is that not criminal? You have to remember that the people that make anime and the people that work to bring it here do so for a living. Why should they not get paid for doing their job? This is a bad analogy, but let's say at your job you made $100 a day. Your boss tells you that every hour they are going to take $1.25 out of your pay, because someone else down the hall is printing off your work and handing it in and taking credit for it. So in one day that's $10 gone. In one 5-day work week that's $50. A huge amount of money.. no, but it's money that you could have used for gas, or food, or to pay a bill, etc. Forgive me for the horrible analogy, but it's late, I'm tired, and brain isn't working properly.
The truth is that all works of the mind are property. (at least in most countries) Every invention that someone comes up with was conceived in someone's mind, and then they got a patent for it, and so and and so forth. It's the same with movies, anime, etc., except you get a copyright instead of a patent. Some things do get me upset though like when they trademark phrases.
Ok, that's like going out to a restaurant and saying, "let me eat my meal, and if I don't enjoy it, I won't pay for it." or going to the movies and saying "I wanna watch the movie first, and then pay after if I liked it." or "I'm going on vacation, and if it's not fun, everyone I paid can give me my money back." It just doesn't work like that.
The problem is that most people these days ARE cheapskates. People go to dollar stores, or Wal-Mart or wherever and try to find the cheapest prices on things. People try and get things for free if they can all the time. I don't consider that a bad thing, since I go to those kinda places too, but in our society these days, it's all about what you can get for as little as you can pay, and it's hard to beat the price of a boot or a free fansub. Do I think everyone will go out and buy boots and download fansubs and never buy the dvds? No, but there are a fair amount that will. Yes, the bigger number most likely does buy the DVDs and stays away from boots, but unfortunately there are just some people who don't care. I've been debating issues like this for the past week, I think I'll take a break now.. but thanks for the great debate tiredgamer 
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v1cious
 Posts: 6233 Location: Houston, TX |
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using animejunkies as an example is a cheap shot. there are a lot of groups with skilled translators that do great work. |
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Kazuki-san
Posts: 2251 Location: Houston, TX |
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And there are just as many that do bad work and have translators that are still learning the language. There are also quite a few that don't know how to spell, and seem to like changing the letters around in words. You think they would at least proofread before they distro'd it. Last edited by Kazuki-san on Thu Jul 08, 2004 4:25 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Nagisa
Moderator
 Posts: 6128 Location: Atlanta-ish, Jawjuh |
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Amen. AnimeJunkies was a bad group, but there are many more that are pretty much just as bad still in operation. I'm not anti-fansub (I'm actually a rather frequent user of them), I'm just strongly opposed to this cocky misconception that fansubs are superior to domestic releases. They're a method for those of us unfamiliar with the language to see unlicensed series, but they're still inferior -- both in video and translation quality -- to professional work. |
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bluechibi
Posts: 137 |
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Reading over some anime forums, I find it very funny when you see fans getting angry and annoyed with companies like ADV picking up new licenses for anime.
Before, fans wanted anime series to be picked up as soon as possible - released into their local store. But then when it became a lot easier to get hold of new series fansubbed they changed their mind and preferred series didn't get picked up. Well of course I'm not talking about all fans only a small number. An example is this news article about ADV requesting links to download animes that they hold licenses for be removed. You can't get mad (though some have) at ADV just for stopping you and others from downloading anime that they own. |
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Tempest
 I Run this place.ANN Publisher  Posts: 10466 Location: Do not message me for support. |
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No. That's what Piracy was. Language evolves, and words take new meanings. For example "booting" a computer no longer has anything to do with kicking it, yet it is a perfectly acceptable and appropriate way of saying "turning a computer on." http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=piracy
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