Forum - View topicChicks On Anime - Seme Like it Hot
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Megiddo
Posts: 8360 Location: IL |
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Not to me in the slightest. Then again, I prescribe to the idea that you can totally have feelings for someone without wanting sex, which is certainly in this day a rather strange thinking. If they say no, it's not because they don't love the person or whatever. It's just that they're not comfortable with having sex at the point in time. Forcing the issue seems to be more of disrespecting their morals and has absolutely nothing to do with "accepting feelings". |
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SnaphappyFMA
Posts: 216 Location: California |
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Heterosexual female yaoi fan here.
Just to put in my two cents - like CCSYueh I too am over 40, and I remember the old attitudes well, i.e., "proper" women aren't supposed to enjoy sex. I honestly don't mind the whole debate over this - because I believe in open debate about anything that interests people - but I do think it's ironic that men's sexuality and its full range ("vanilla" hetero sex, as well as porn, fetishes, kinks, etc.) seems to be accepted and not questioned too much - but when women like something that isn't "normal" it gets questioned and analyzed nearly to death. There's still a double standard here. |
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Megiddo
Posts: 8360 Location: IL |
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No double standard at all. I guarantee you that I would be just as perplexed if a panel of guys had a column and stated that the rape in hentai isn't really rape since the girl enjoys it in the end and is totally in love with the guy. |
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CCSYueh
Posts: 2707 Location: San Diego, CA |
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This is what I was getting at. I remember reading The Reincarnation of Peter Proud AGES ago whe I was a teen (smut city, yeah) & I remember the woman in tha past being represented as "loose" & "slutty" because she liked sex as much as any guy which is ok for mistresses, but proper men didn't marry those, they married the nice. proper woman who maybe sucked in bed, but could cook/clean/provide heirs & played with the mistress if he could afford one or fantasized about such things if he couldn't afford to buy a sex toy. There was a time rich & powerful guys were pretty much expected to have the proper wife for appearances with the mistress on the side for fun. And that seems to be where Japanese women are coming from If the guy "forces" himself on the girl, she didn't ask for sex, thus she's still a "good girl". "Good girls" (nice meek Japanese girls) don't ask for sex. Girls in brothels want sex. But the usual rape in yaoi seems to be the frustration level-Seme's been drooling over uke & takes him, but uke's sort of ok with it once he thinks it over. Is rape wrong? Of course. But this is fantasy. Just like we all know teacher/student sexual relations are a HUGE betrayal of the teacher's power over their student/whatever, we see this fantasy repeated again & again & again because that is what romance is-fantasy. Wanting to see the dark little thoughts from the deepest recesses of one's mind that one has possibly never voiced to anyone on paper for one to enjoy is what this stuff is about. Why else do we see the gender change, etc? These things are impossible to wrong, but you can't stop the fantasies some people are going to have. I understand in the sex trade there are people willing to pay a pretty penny to have things done to them or to allow them to do things to the prostitute that most of society would consider pretty perverse. There are scads of jokes out there about sex games-the priest & the choirboy, the cheerleeder, etc. I believe the rape fantasy is pretty much included in several of those scenarios. Manga/print is a lot cheaper version of fantasy fulfillment. I rememer the 3 Hustlers my husband got his hands on had some pretty strange sex fantasy photo portrayals including the chick with a crankshaft (he usually got Playboy or Penthouse when he saw them at yard sales maybe once a year). Isn't that why hentai exists? So japanese men & women can play out their wildest/sickest fantasies in the privacy of their own homes? I remember someone (this site maybe) mentioning a game where the point was to grope as many victims as one could on the train. It certainly prevents accidentally groping the wrong person if one were bold enough to set up such a sex play in real life. |
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configspace
Posts: 3717 |
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Yep. Bring on the seme's and uke's! Let the girls and everyone else have their fun. Truthfully the contents don't even matter to me--and shouldn't matter in free society--be it guro or whatever more extreme stuff, but if people really need to rationalize it (which I again, I think there is no need), then like was mentioned before, fantasy "rape" in contrast to real rape is always characterized by "I say no, but I mean yes!", i.e. tie me up in chains, "please no", but orgasm nonetheless. I'm a guy and am not the least bit bothered by it. Why should anyone be? Objectively, it doesn't affect anyone and if people who are bothered actually didn't know about it, life wouldn't be any different for them. If anything, it provides for a kind of catharsis, perhaps even a necessary i.e. healthy one for their inner most desires. It's very much like how many women including married women read romance novels and live vicariously through them. In fact, I'd be extremely bothered if they weren't allowed to, like Christopher Handley (ugh, makes me mad and sad whenever I think about it). Last edited by configspace on Thu Oct 15, 2009 2:37 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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branewurms
Posts: 19 |
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I see the line as being pretty clear. Rape portrayed in an erotic fashion is rape fantasy. When you then send the message (often explicitly, though sometimes implicitly) that there was nothing wrong with what the rapist did, or that what he did was not rape, that's rape apologism. Here's an example I can think of off the top of my head: Junjou Romantica. One of the first things that happen (in the anime, I have not read the manga), is the seme forcing a handjob on the uke. That is serious sexual assault. But the text treats it as if he'd done no more than say something rude. |
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configspace
Posts: 3717 |
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But why does it matter? There are tons of violent games where it's perfectly alright to blow everyone's heads off to bits and pieces, and tons of people who play those violent games who remain perfectly sane and commit no crime. Unitl we see real effects tested in a black-box manner (we measure only effects and then try to find the causes, rather than looking at supposed causes and assuming their effeccts) where we see people assaulting other people purely as a result of reading/seeing this material--where they would otherwise not have--then we can start to worry. |
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egoist
Posts: 7762 |
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That's not agreeable in the slightest. It's not like that for everyone, at least not me. I don't adore or despise moe or BL(t). I gotta say that I've watched a few yaoi/bl shows and a lot of moe, but I didn't feel anything in special, including hate/love. Having a moe girl or bl in shows might make the show less interesting or better, it's not just the genre, it's about the anime in general. Clearly, I won't watch an anime with just BL and Moe, it needs a decent plot, good character depth and a nice pacing. What's a rape in my opinion? Let's say character A is the victim, B is the culprit: Character B desperately wants to have character A, but A refuses to. But B didn't accept that and forced A, despite A having said a clear "no". From that point it's a rape already. It's simple and whatever happens after that, it's still a rape. |
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DPX
Posts: 118 |
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To bad Equality Now doesn't get this message, as they're still trying to pressure Japan to pass a law banning rape in all forms of media, ncluding manga and anime. And yes, if it's passed, yaoi will also be affected. Honestly, why can'yt people understand that fantasy is fantasy... |
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DPX
Posts: 118 |
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from yestofreedom.org Research oage. http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/forumy/2006/06/rape-porn-and-criminality-political.php is this what you're talking about? |
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GrilledEelHamatsu
Posts: 703 |
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That is correct. Homosexuality is something that is considered taboo and abnormal in Japanese society even though it's glorified in anime and manga, they tend to look at gays as "freaks". most japanese gays tend to hide thier affection and keep it in the closet. If you see two girls in Japan holding hands walking down a street there's probably only a 10% chance that they are lesbians. A short haired Japanese woman is normally a bishoujo who just broke up with a boyfriend( In Japanese custom brokenhearted women cut thier hair as a symbol of moving on). The last time I saw a gay pride march in Toyko, there were only about 40 or 50 people marching. That said, I think Caseys' bias about getting off on boys sodomizing each other in yaoi is obvious. But she failed to make a proper point and came across sounding way too naive about the issue. I'm a male and I personally find yaoi strictly for women. I'm not homosexual so I don't like viewing yaoi or hentai. It's too dark, disturbing and unpleasant. I find yuri to be light hearted, sweet and serene. Sasameki Koto, Utena,Kashi Masi,Maria Sama Ga Meteru all seem to keep the yuri at a certain tame level henceforth I tend to watch it. When it comes to yuri comedy like Otenki Onesan,Cutey Honey e.t.c I tend to buy this type of shoujo ai. Now when it comes to viewing hentai manga, yuri,futanari,shota and loli are the fetishes I tend to enjoy. I view it in the same way that Japan views it, if it's fictional,doesn't desentize or cause real sexual violence it's benign. I think a Japanese man my age(I'm in my latter 20s) would share the same view. |
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micchan
Posts: 4 |
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Well, duh. Obviously forcing people doing things they don't want to do with their own bodies is wrong. But once again, THIS IS FANTASY. If a guy treated me like that, I'd kick seven kind of crap outta him. But seeing it in fiction is exciting in a way, because people are attracted to bad things - the proof is in the blood pudding called Twilight (sucking people's blood = bad, but it's being shown in a very romantic [as in naive] way, thus making it attracting and interesting rather then scary or wrong). No one is trying to say real-life rape is excusable. But more often then not, it's used in fiction with characters so un-realistic, you can't really apply real-life logic to it. It's a form of a fetish, a fantasy, and if you shift your mental gear from RL to lala-land, it can be every bit as exciting as other silly notions (like the odd idea that getting bitten and sucked blood out is hot). It's like with yandere boys - a favorite of mine, and a common rape-non-con-sex "heroes". I assure you I don't want any guy to treat me like crap and go around saying idiotic things like "you're mine and I get to decide what you do" but I enjoy it in fiction. Why? I can't be sure (it's the angsty-drama, I suppose) but I only take it as a fantasy, where the most basic rules of the world are different. That's the most important rule about fiction - knowing the difference between it and real life (a rule that is sadly not as solid as it should be in most people's mind). |
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neocloud9
Posts: 1178 Location: Atlanta, GA |
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But the seme also carries around the guilt and insecurity that arises from having begun a relationship in such a way for about half-a-dozen volumes. So the author didn't exactly write it off in this case. However, I'd venture to guess that if the series were less successful and didn't last as long as it did, we probably wouldn't have gotten that. A lot of yaoi manga don't. |
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Megiddo
Posts: 8360 Location: IL |
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lol forced hand job. Sounds like the first villain of Nerima Daikon Brothers.
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neocloud9
Posts: 1178 Location: Atlanta, GA |
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Begging your pardon, sir. But...what? |
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