Forum - View topicBest Hero/Heroine Tournament: Finished!
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Hentai_JP
 Posts: 605 Location: Toronto, ON |
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Thought I'd join for final two rounds.
Groups A/B Semifinal Shu Maritani, Now and Then, Here and There vs. Balsa, Moribito – Guardian of the Spirit I'll go with Shu Maritani. His stamina and positive attitude saves or helps many other characters. I haven't finished Moribito yet, and from what I've seen I don't understand why Balsa made it to semifinals. Guess I'll finish the series already. Groups C/D Semifinal Duck/Princess Tutu, Princess Tutu vs. Simon, Gurren Lagann Thats a very tough choice. I've seen both seires and both characters are amazing. I'd go with Kamina if he made it through... oh well. My choice is Princess Tutu. She knows that she is a part of story, that she is secondary character written to suffer who can never end up with the prince, yet she goes against her destiny and saves prince and others from their dark fate. |
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Dorcas_Aurelia
 Posts: 5344 Location: Philly |
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It's all over but the shouting, really. Assuming I didn't make any serious mistakes (detailed spreadsheet here), the three winners have now been determined, it's just a matter of the order. Key held onto enough of a lead these last few rounds to ensure that despite have both semi-finalist picks eliminated, only two people are close enough to pass in the final two rounds. Mad_Scientist currently holds second, and led frequently at the beginning of the tournament. Mow never managed to take the lead, but was never very far back in the rankings. spoiler[With both mow and Mad_Scientist having opposing choices in the Semi-Finals, Key is destined to a second place finish at best. Aside from that, I have no guess who might win.] Also, unrelated to the mini-game, and assuming my math is correct, it is interesting to see that going down the list of remaining contenders in order, the percentage of vote they won likewise is downward (88.32% for Shu, who shut out his fourth and fifth opponents; 85.38% for Balsa; 81.68% for Duck; and 75.00% for Simon). |
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Aylinn
 Posts: 1684 |
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Groups A/B Semifinal
Shu Maritani, Now and Then, Here and There vs. Balsa, Moribito – Guardian of the Spirit Balsa It's a hard choice. Shu gives hope to those around him and Balsa is more inspirational, which is, I admit, a subjective opinion. well I'll be happy whoever wins. Groups C/D Semifinal Duck/Princess Tutu, Princess Tutu vs. Simon, Gurren Lagann Duck/Princess Tutu ccdx's comments convinced me that Simon is not a better choice here. Ahiru is a truly impressive heroine who struggles against fate and eventually creates spoiler[a happy ending] and she does that as a mere duck, without Princess Tutu's power. |
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Ggultra2764
 Subscriber Posts: 3946 Location: New York state. |
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Group A/ B Semifinal: Shu
From what I hear of Balsa, she has a sword and a boy to protect in feudal Japan while Shu has just a stick protecting and rescuing a mysterious girl in a hellish future ruled by a militiant nation and its crazed ruler. Shu's not really specially talented in anything, but does whatever he can do to inspire others and stop Hellywood which is why I vote for him. Group C/ D Semifinal: Simon Since I voted for neither of these two last round, this comes down to who I think is the least flawed. Simon finds himself being a more strong-willed leader after his timid start from the series while from what I've heard of Tutu, she tries to overcome the very story she's being a part of despite having a submissive personality. In my eyes, Simon seemed to have become a stronger character compared to what I've heard about Tutu so I'll throw my support for Simon this round. |
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Mylene
 Posts: 2792 Location: Indiana |
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And I'm back again. Sorry for the every other round voting, but if I can't decide, I don't vote. And if I fear my vote will be tainted by my mini-game choices rather than actual feelings of heroism, I don't vote. Needless to say, that second reason's out of the way.
Group A/B No question here for me, at this point Shu probably should win the whole thing. I didn't expect him to get this far, but that usually happens in this sort of tournament. I really think that everything that can be said about Shu has been said. He's selfless, determined, and yet still sticks to his stick even when he has the option to go a different route. Group C/D Duck will be my choice. Not only do I appreciate her for her heroism, but she's such a different type of heroine. She knows there is no hope for her personally, but she still fights against fate for everyone else. I'm sure Simon's great, but I'm staying with what I know for certain. |
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bonbonsrus
 Posts: 1537 Location: Michigan, USA |
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Not too late to join, right?
Groups A/B Semifinal Shu Maritani, Now and Then, Here and There vs. Balsa, Moribito – Guardian of the Spirit I'll go with Balsa. She has impressed me with her ability and determination, and while I can see how either of these characters could win this, she gets my vote for never losing site of her goals, even if it is the more difficult path. Groups C/D Semifinal Duck/Princess Tutu, Princess Tutu vs. Simon, Gurren Lagann I choose Duck/Princess Tutu for her pluckiness and complete disregard for herself in making sure that the right thing was done. She impressed me in her sacrifices, her thoughts, and her actions. |
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Kirkdawg
Subscriber Posts: 742 Location: California, USA |
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Groups A/B Semifinal
Shu Maritani, Now and Then, Here and There vs. Balsa, Moribito – Guardian of the Spirit Balsa This is a fairly easy choice for me, but I suppose I should explain a little bit as to why huh? Balsa has a motherly appeal to me that draws me in more on a personal level than Shu; although Shu has more epic, heroic events, I find it to be less believable and therefore less credible as a hero. It's quite unreal how many times he performs ridiculous feats as a human being, which makes it seem quite heroic, but I can't take him as seriously. Groups C/D Semifinal Duck/Princess Tutu, Princess Tutu vs. Simon, Gurren Lagann Duck I've watched the first 4 episodes of Princess Tutu and all of Gurren Laggan and I can already tell she's going to be a hero that ends up appealing to me more so than Simon. Like I said earlier, I'm not a fan of Gurren Laggan; Simon's alright as far as heroics go, but his rise from pansy to manly is a bit off the wall for me. I also don't like how he needs to be groomed into a hero either. |
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marie-antoinette
 Posts: 4136 Location: Ottawa, Canada |
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Groups A/B Semifinal
Voting for: Shu Maritani, Now and Then, Here and There Reasons: Everything I have heard about this kid impresses me so much that I am definitely going to be checking this series out in the near future (though I have a few others to get through first). Balsa seems great and all but I'm not convinced she should have made it to the semis at all so she's definitely not getting this vote. Groups C/D Semifinal Voting for: Duck/Princess Tutu, Princess Tutu Reasons: There were some compelling arguments made against Simon last round, enough that I might have reconsidered my vote if his opponent had been anyone other than Ashitaka. Add to the fact that I know and love Duck and again I have a fairly easy vote here. Next round, provided Duck and Shu both make it through, will not be so clearcut. |
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Mad_Scientist
 SubscriberModerator  Posts: 3011 |
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Time to respond to some points made by Oliff near the end of the last round. Though since Duck is now facing off against Simon and not Nausicaa, many of those points take on a slightly different light. And actually, the fact that Duck is facing Simon now makes my job here much easier now.
And yet ironically enough, Duck is now facing Simon, a man with more moments of weakness and self doubt than any of the other semi-finalists. And also a man you said this about: "I believe that Simon just might have what it takes to deserve to win it all." So obviously, you agree with me that merely having some weakness and moments of self-doubt does not automatically make you a less deserving candidate than someone who does not have those issues. As I said before, weaknesses can become strengths for a character depending on how they handle them and overcome them. In fact, overcoming one's own weaknesses can even be itself considered heroic in a way. I know many people have commented on this with Simon, saying how his something-from-nothing was a part of why they voted for him. Both Simon and Duck have flaws, moments where they doubt themselves or don't know what to do. And they both overcome these weaknesses, in time at least. But I think Duck handles her weaknesses just a bit better than Simon. Simon's weaknesses and doubts hold him down for much greater periods of time than Duck's do, and he reaches greater lows than her as well. Look back a few pages to the much discussed prison incident with Simon for an example of a moment of weakness he had that many feel he did not handle well. And while I think he's actually taken a little too much flak for that, I have to somewhat agree.
This, I strongly disagree with. The show did follow some magical girl cliches early on, but it was hardly as bad as you describe. Even when it was seemingly sticking to the "collect a bunch of something" formula, the overall plot was developed in every episode, with significent revelations as early as the third episode, and collecting of the pieces of heart had almost immediate visible effects. Really, every episode aside from the first two episodes that set up the premise showed signs of being something at least a little unique, not just in style but in substance as well, and after only a few episodes the show really separated itself. It is true that the show always did have some of the trappings of the magical girl genre even at the end, but so what? It was a magical girl show. Gurren Lagann was a super robot show, and I doubt anyone would argue that Simon should be penalized because he was always piloting giant transforming robots. And what you argue over was the development of the show, not the character. Duck distinguished herself even early on as a very heroic character. Though it is true that her most impressive acts came later, that's because it's a natural progression of many shows for more dangerous or otherwise troublesome situations to come later on in the show. And Duck never seemed shallow or generic to me, and she was certainly a far better hero early on in her show than Simon was in his. Look at the first 8 or so episodes of Princess Tutu, and you'll see a pretty heroic character, although one who hasn't yet demonstrated why she deserves to make it this far. Look at the first 8 or so episodes of Gurren Lagann, and you'll be wondering how Simon even made it past the first round. And you won't even have gotten to his massive multi-episode depression and rage yet.
This just sounds nuts to me. It almost seems that you expect Duck to be all knowing, and all powerful as well. You say Duck does exactly what the villian wanted... early on, what the villian wanted was a good thing! Restoring the pieces of Mytho's heart was a good thing. Drosselmeyer hadn't even shown himself to be a villian yet doing these early episodes. Sure, he was a bit creepy, but his comments in episode 2 that went something along the lines of "that's the great thing about stories, you can make dreams come true" seemed almost nice. Early on, he gave the impression that he could have easily been one of those mysterious but good guys who works behind the scenes. And even if we assume that somehow Duck could know Drosselmeyer was a villian, what was she supposed to do that early on? "Nah, I don't think I'll restore Mytho's heart. I'll leave him an emotionless puppet for all eternity. And the town will remain completely controlled by Drosselmeyer's story as well. All because Drosselmeyer wants Mytho's heart to be at partially restored, and if a villian wants something, it must automatically be a bad thing and it would be unheroic of me to bring it about, even if it's actually a wonderful and good thing." Ok, I'm being a bit too sarcastic here probably, I'll tone it down, but I still find this argument odd. It's like expecting Simon to know about the threat of the anti-spirals right from the start. After defeating the beastman, Simon helped bring about changes that led to the human population growing... which almost brought about the exctinction of the entire species as a result. Should Simon have somehow known exactly what the effects of the population reaching a million was going to be? Should he have been expected to start fighting against the anti-spirals as soon as he defeated the beastman. Of course not. Simon had no way of knowing about the anti-spirals, and even the cryptic warning he got wasn't really enough to do anything. We can't expect him to fight enemies he doesn't know exist. Just like we can't expect Duck to somehow know about Drosselmeyer's true nature, or fight against him before he's even given her a reason to.
How is duck lacking in this department? Of all the contenders left, I'd say that she controlled her own destiny the most impressively. Perhaps the most impressively of anyone in the entire tournament. She literally fought against destiny. Simon was ready to give up in the prison. He was ready to accept his fate, to die, to do nothing. What about paving glory, what about controlling destiny? You've argued that it was the smart choice at the time, though it's clear that if he had died there, it would have meant disaster for the human race. Now look at the second clip shown for Duck, when she faces off against Princes Kraehe. It would have been very easy for duck to not fight for her destiny. She could have just accepted the fate that Drosselmeyer had planned for her, the fate of the Princess Tutu in the story within the story, to confess her love and disappear. But she didn't. She refused to accept her fate, and found another way. And she did so as well at other times. Duck is a character who fought against a man who could control fate, fought against him and won, and you are saying "a hero must control her destiny" as an argument against her? Groups A/B Semifinal Shu Maritani, Now and Then, Here and There vs. Balsa, Moribito – Guardian of the Spirit My Vote: Shu Maritani I expected to be voting for Balsa at this stage. I also didn't expect Shu to even be here. It's amazing how I could underestimate him despite the fact that I've watched NTHT many times and absolutely love the series. Shu deserves to go to the finals. The adversity he faces is insane, and his resources at hand are very limited. Yet he never gives up, and he ultimately prevails. Groups C/D Semifinal Duck/Princess Tutu, Princess Tutu vs. Simon, Gurren Lagann My vote: Duck Yet, I'm voting for her, obviously. If you want a lot of details why, you can check out the huge post I wrote a page or so back, which I shall now link here. But something I forgot to mention in that post, that I was reminded of recently, is just how extreme an effect Duck had on the world she was in. Every single good event that occured was because of her. Even when others had a large part in doing something, Duck was always there and playing a role. Her effect and influence on the people she encountered is unparalleled. |
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Key
Moderator
 Posts: 18345 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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Literally so in some cases. 
Anyway, at this point the Shu/Balsa match is close and the Duck/Simon match isn't. I had expected the reverse, so I guess the arguments made against Simon last round are finally catching up to him. We still have half or more of the probable votes to go, though, so things could still turn around. |
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DarkGyraen
Posts: 34 |
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Groups A/B Semifinal
Shu Maritani, Now and Then, Here and There vs. Balsa, Moribito – Guardian of the Spirit Vote-Balsa: At this point, these are the two I'd vote for to win the whole thing, so this is a little tougher. I'm going to have to go with Balsa, because while I think that they are both fantastic hero's, I just have to keep going with the fact that I find Balsa to be such a inspiring character on every level. A lot of that has to do with the way she's portrayed. She's a sexy, uber bad-ass warrior that would be right at home in a crazy action series. Instead of focusing on that though, the show focuses on what a great person, often doing much of her heroics just through how she lives her life and deals with others. I still think that Balsa is the best heroine to come along in anime in a very, very long time. In a genre where even the intelligent and strong female characters are often hyper-sexualized, (Matoko from Ghost in the Shell), it's truly refreshing to have a strong, and attractive female character that is so utterly respectable. I like Shu, but I have to vote for and root fo Balsa here. Groups C/D Semifinal Duck/Princess Tutu, Princess Tutu vs. Simon, Gurren Lagann Vote-Duck: I really don't think I have to explain myself too much. Duch wins almost by default for me here. While she's a strong contender, I still feel Simon shouldn't be here. At this point, you can't have a "hero" with the kind of massive strike against them that Simon does: spoiler[He's responsible for Kamina's death! A little petty jealousy over the fact that he saw Kamina kissing Yoko, and he spent that battle pouting like a child, and ultimately got Kamina killed in his place.] Even if you can overlook that kind of strike against them, as we're now down to the final four, that kind of negative action has to eliminate a character in my eyes. The others just don't have that kind of strike against them, so again, I feel Simon should be going home this time. |
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guet
 Posts: 492 Location: Sparta |
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Groups A/B Semifinal
Shu Maritani, Now and Then, Here and There vs. Balsa, Moribito – Guardian of the Spirit Voting for: Balsa Reason: I have nothing to say against Shu. He is a very worthy of moving on as well, but since I have to chose one of the two I'll give the very slight edge to Balsa. Not only does she live in a society where women are not usually warriors (she had to start her training on her own by watching and imitating because of this), but also in one where it is death to look royalty in the eye. Yet she still manages to do what needs to be done despite this. She atones for sins that arguably aren't even hers, cares for and protects multiple people, and doesn't back down from challenges that have even elite imperial guards running for cover. Groups C/D Semifinal Duck/Princess Tutu, Princess Tutu vs. Simon, Gurren Lagann Voting for: Simon Reason: I guess I'm just going to have to watch Princess Tutu at some point. While I can kind of see now why others have been raving about Duck this tournament, I still don't think her actions can compare to the boy who becomes a man that saves an entire universe of people from oppression and subjugation. Simon wavers from time to time, and that seems to be most people's argument for why he does not deserve to move on, but in my mind a character that has doubts, yet overcomes them, is more heroic than one who never wavers in the first place. Of course that's just my opinion, for what it's worth. |
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Mad_Scientist
Subscriber Moderator Posts: 3011 |
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Well, Duck has doubts at times too, and overcomes them. Both Duck and Simon have moments of self-doubt, moments of weakness or hesitation. In that regard, they are similiar. But the way they handle their moments is quite different.
I realize now I didn't go into very much detail about this part, and so I intended to go a bit more in depth as to why I think that. But as I looked more and more at the issues that both characters faced and the way they handled them, I realized something. I need to revise my original statement slightly. Duck handles her weaknessess way better than Simon handles his. Consider all the various factors involved. Why were the characters suffering from weakness and self-doubt, how long did it last, how did they get through it and/or overcome it? Do they learn anything as a result, do they emerge a stronger character? And also, especially, consider how they behaved while they were suffering from this self-doubt. Did they manage to still do what was necessary even while they were having trouble? Did they perhaps instead behave in a way they know they shouldn't have, acting foolishly, or being irresponsible? Did others suffer or have trouble because of their weaknesses? To be blunt and to the point: Simon bares a large part of the blame for the death of Kamina because his weakness, fueled partially by his jealousy, caused him to fail at a critical time and put Kamina in a vulnerable position. DarkGyraen recently made this same point, and it's something I had honestly forgotten about a little bit. But now, let's look at the major moments of weakness of both characters in detail. Duck moment of weakness #1: Duck doubts her mission and decides not to be Princess Tutu anymore First, some background as to what brought this about. Duck has been working hard to try and restore the pieces of Mytho's heart, but has come into conflict both with Mytho's best friend, Fakir, and also somewhat with Mytho's girlfriend, Rue. Both insist that Mytho does not need a heart, and Fakir in particular is quite obstinate about this, and quite horrible in his treatment of Duck. But Duck has continued to do her job, until she restored Mytho's sense of fear. This had some unpleasant effects. It reduced Mytho to a quivering wreck, and he was completely and utterly terrorfied of Princess Tutu of all things: Duck in other words. It is also unfortunate that up to this point, a large amount of the emotions Duck has restored to Mytho have been unpleasant ones, though none affected him so horribly as fear did. Now, Duck is faced with the possibility that perhaps Fakir and Rue are right. Maybe Mytho really is better off as he was, maybe she isn't doing a good thing. She is about to give up on being Princess Tutu, when Drosselmeyer shows up to try and encourage her to continue. Unfortunately, when Duck comments on how she has brought Mytho nothing but pain, Drosselmeyer accidentally lets his pleasure at that show, revealing his true colors for the first time. Needless to say, he isn't very convincing, so Duck throws away her amulet. Ultimately, Duck overcome her weakness when she learns that Mytho is in danger later on in the episode, via side character Edel. She immediately returns to being Princess Tutu, and saves Mytho. Afterwards, she is still prepared to stop restoring his heart, but Mytho reveals that despite what Fakir and Rue claim, despite what Duck though, restoring his heart is a good thing. He wants to have his heart restored, even if it means some unpleasantness before it is over. Duck emerges from this experience more confident than before, and armed with the definite knowledge from Mytho himself that he wants his heart restored, she is able to start convincing Fakir of the error of his ways. This incident, this moment of doubt, was brought about by very understandable circumstances. Also, while Duck's decision was definitely a mistake, it was not a deliberate attempt to abandon her duty: for a moment, Duck honestly believed she was not doing any good. Even in her doubt and confusion, she at least tried to do the right thing. Fortunately for her, her moment of weakness did not cause any major issues. She overcame it quickly, and no one suffered as a result of her doubt. And in case anyone is wondering, no, Duck was not responsible for the danger Mytho faced in that episode. Simon "moment" of weakness #1: Simon's fear, self-doubt, and in the end, jealousy. What I wrote above kind of makes Simon sound worse than he is, but even so, I realize that many people, myself included, have been letting Simon off too easy. We've talked about him growing into a hero, about him being an inspirational story, but even so, does that simply excuse everything that came before he grew into that hero? Should we simply sweep it aside and ignore it? That's what I did without even realizing it. But I can't do that anymore, not at this stage of the tournament. There wasn't any specific event or moment which caused Simon's weakness in the early episodes. In the first episode, he found himself suddenly thrust into a huge battle between Yoko and a giant robot, and his life was put in danger. He soon found himself the surface world and got into the middle of a war between humans and beastman, and ended up a soldier in that war. He was faced with a large amount of fighting and danger, as well as responsibility. And he didn't like it, to put it mildy. Some might call him a coward. That's a bit harsh, but truth be told Simon was extremely fearful, and had trouble doing what was needed. It wasn't just his fear that held him back, he also had no confidence in himself. Despite his weakness, Simon manages to get through the various struggles he and his comrades have, thanks to the inspiration and support of Kamina, and begins to overcome his fear and grow more confident even as he struggles. No one died as a result of his self-doubt, and things were looking up. But then the most damning thing in these early episodes happens. Simon suffers from a far more nasty emotion than simple self-doubt or fear: he suffers from jealousy over the very "brother" he so admires. This occurs after he realizes tha Yoko loves Kamina, and not him. This jealousy fuels Simon's other weaknesses, and in the most crucial battle they have fought so far, Simon fails to do what he needs to. Because of his failure, Kamina has to literally knock some sense into him by punching him in the face. This puts Kamina into the open, and is partially responsible for Kamina's death. Moments of self-doubt and fear, moments of weakness, they are one thing when they don't hurt anyone else. But when they do, when they prevent you from doing what you should, what you KNOW you should, and cause the death of others, they are another thing entirely. And yes, at least Simon's initial fear and self-doubt is understandable, afterall, Simon was still a kid. Plenty of kids have low self confidence, and plenty of adults would have trouble functioning with their life in danger all the time. But we're not talking about plenty of people, or normal people. We're talking about heroes, extraordinary people who rise above the normal. I would be more forgiving of Simon if his weakness was a brief thing, but it was not. We're talking the first 8 episodes here, and Gurren Lagann is not a super long series. It's 27 episodes, and one is completely a recap, so it's only got 26 episodes with content. So the first 8 episodes are almost an entire third of the series. Simon's long stretch of weakness, his jealousy, and his role in the death of Kamina, are all simply not things that can be swept away or ignored. Not at this stage, anyway. Duck moment of weakness #2: Duck feels that she can't do anything to help Mytho The situation that brought this about was an unpleasant one. Mytho has had most of his heart restored, but unfortunately, because of the machinations of the Monster Raven and Rue/Princess Kraehe, Mytho's feeling of love had been bathed in the blood of the Monster Raven before being returned to him. As a result, Mytho has become corrupted, and is now twisted and cruel. He often attempts to ensare others and steal their hearts to feed to the Monster Raven. Obviously, it is a bad situation for both Fakir and Duck, as they want to help Mytho, want to save him, but they also have to stop him from hurting others. So far, they have succeeded in preventing him from causing others harm, but they are no closer to freeing him from his corruption. And then Duck learns a little about Fakir's past, and learns that as a kid Fakir wrote a lot, and that he had a mysterious power to bring his stories to life. Duck tries to convince Fakir to use this power to save Mytho, and ends up telling Fakir that there's is nothing she can do for Mytho, but that he can do something. Fakir reacts badly, for reasons Duck doesn't understand. She pleads with him to help, once again expressing her feeling that she cannot help Mytho herself, saying she wouldn't ask Fakir otherwise. He tells her to go away. This of course confuses Duck, as she had been getting along much better with Fakir by this point. She ultimately learns the reason why, which relates to how Fakir accidentally caused the death of his own parents as a child, but that part is not really important. Ultimately Fakir overcomes his own weakness, Duck learns the full details of his past, and the two of them work together to save Mytho. But even while troubled and not knowing how in the world Mytho can be saved, Duck does not abandon her duty or stop doing what she knows she can and should do. She still stops Mytho when he tries to steal another heart, for example, and continues to work to help Fakir overcome his own issues. She endures her weakness, and the only negative effect of this brief moment of doubt is that she has trouble concentrating in ballet class. Simon "moment" of weakness #2: Simon's depression and rage. The trigger for this is quite obvious, of course. Kamina died, and Simon was responsible for it, at least in part. This caused Simon to descend into a spiral of rage and depression. At least he wasn't afraid anymore. Unfortunately, Simon doesn't exactly behave well despite that. He's super reckless in combat, desiring nothing more than to kill as many beastmen. He doesn't work together with his teammates. He's rude and insulting to them when they aren't fighting. At a time when Team Dai-Gurren needed a leader, at Simon utterly failed to step up to the plate and fufill that role. He didn't just fail to be a leader, he failed to be a teammate or a comrade. Fortunately, no one dies as a direct result of his weakness this time. He is ultimately saved from his despair by the character Nia. And at the end of episode 11, he overcomes his problems, and finally, finally becomes the hero he is meant to be. At the end of episode 11. Of a series with only 26 episodes. Meaning the halfway point is only 2 episodes away. The series is almost half over, and Simon hasn't even shown himself deserving to be in the tournament at all. I am serious here. Would anyone vote for Simon to be in this tournament based on the first 11 episodes? You can say he grows into a hero, you can say it's a great story, but that doesn't change the fact that for almost half the series Simon showed nothing worthy of being here. It doesn't change the fact that as a direct result of Simon's earlier unheroic behavior, a beloved character died. Duck moment of weakness #3: Duck's despair over being unable to remove the amulet. At this stage, Rue has been redeemed but capture by the Monster Raven, Mytho has also been redeemed and is ready to fight the Monster Raven, and every piece of his heart has been restored but one. In order to fight the Monster Raven, Mytho will need his heart completely restored so that his true form and abilities can return. And the final piece of the heart is the amulet that let's Duck turn into both Princess Tutu... and a girl. So Duck tries to remove it, but for some reason, it doesn't come off. While Duck is trying to figure out why this is, Drosselmeyer decides to display his crowning moment of villainy, and uses his power to manipulate Duck. Actually, he uses his power to manipulate Fakir like a literal puppet, so that Fakir will use his power to manipulate Duck. Seems he was feeling especially sadistic right then. As a result, the confused Duck hears the voice of Drosselmeyer, which tells her the supposed reason the amulet won't come off. He says it's because she doesn't want to go back to being a duck. That because of that, because of her, everyone will suffer. That the only way she can get it off is to die, to drown in the lake. And Duck is ready to do so. Fortunately, Fakir shows how far he's come from his early character, and stabs himself in the hand to stop himself from writing anything else as Drosselmeyer's puppet, and rushes to save Duck. This moment is significent for Duck, because it is the only time in the series where Drosselmeyer manages to manipulate her into attempting a course of action that wasn't actually a good thing anyways. It also raises the question: was anything Drosselmeyer said true? Was the reason Duck couldn't remove the amulet because she didn't want to become a duck forever again? Perhaps, and yet... just a little while before, when Duck learned about the final piece of Mytho's heart being her amulet, she showed no hesitation at all about the fact. As another character who also learned of this fact was crying over the possibility of not being able to ever really talk to Duck again, Duck told her that it was ok. That being a duck was the real her. She was willing to accept it. Though it is also clear that a part of her would rather have remained a girl, a part of her is scared at becoming a duck again, it is clear that she was never unwilling to make that sacrifice. Ultimately Fakir helps her become even more at peace with herself, and the amulet comes off: perhaps there was a slight truth to Drosselmeyer's words, and the amulet reacted to Duck's slight unconscious hesitation, or perhaps Drosselmeyer merely had stopped the amulet from coming off himself in order to try and make Duck kill herself, and gave up on that idea when he realized it wasn't going to happen. Fortunately, there are no ill effects from this incident. Simon moment of weakness #3: The prison incident This has already been discussed a ton, and it's interesting because it bears some resemblence to the incident involving Duck above. In both cases, the characters were ready to die. In both cases, the characters seemed to think that was ultimately the best course of action. In both cases, that was shown to be wrong by later events. In both cases, the characters were saved by another. In both cases, one could argue that the characters should have known better, and behaved differently. Ultimately, enough has been said about the prison incident on both sides that I'm not going to delve into further details here, especially since it's late and I'm tired. Maybe in another post. A summery comparision of Simon and Duck's weaknesses: Duck suffered from some moments of self-doubt and weakness, but she never knowingly neglected her duty or behaved in a poor manner. She always did what she thought was the right thing, though perhaps it could be argued she should have known better in one case. Simon suffered from some moments of self-doubt and weakness, and he did knowingly neglect his duty at times, and behaved in a poor manner. There were times where he did what he knew was the wrong thing, and it can be argued that he should have known better even in the one case where he seemed to think he was doing the right thing. Duck never hurt others because of her weakness. She never lashed out at them, was never cruel, and no one died or came to harm because of her failing. Perhaps she can be considered lucky, or perhaps the fact that she always had her heart in the right place even in her weakness had an effect. Simon hurt other because of his weakness. He lashed out at people, and was rude and insulting. Kamina died because of him failing. Perhaps Simon can be considered unlucky, or perhaps it's because at times his heart was definitely in the wrong place. Duck's weakness always stemmed from perfectly innocent things. Not wanting to hurt Mytho, for example, or not knowing how to deal with the corrupted Mytho. Simon's weakness at times stemmed from not so innocent things. Simple fear, not wanting responsibility, and worst of all, petty jealousy. Duck's weakness did not dominate the show, and her brief moments are mere footnotes besides the rest of the series. Simon's weakness completely encompassed his character for nearly half of his series. Honestly, I don't think it's possible to make a decent argument about Duck's weaknesses being a reason to vote against her while she faces off against Simon. After looking at Simon so closely, I've realized I probably shouldn't have voted for him when he faced off against Youko. |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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3,033 words. That's a veritable essay, Mad_Scientist. Good to see you are so enthusiastic. But I wonder if you haven't jumped the gun too soon. If I've counted correctly Balsa and Shu are tied on six votes apiece while Duck is leading Simon ten votes to two. Duck is going to trample Simon at this rate, so perhaps your pro-Duck arguments would have been better saved for the final? Not a criticism, just an observation.
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Key
Moderator
Posts: 18345 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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dtm42 is right. You're wasting an awful lot of typing time on people who don't need to be convinced, Mad_Scientist, as only two have voted for Simon so far.
And honestly, I think you're tweaking your arguments more in favor of Duck and against Simon than is justifiable by the respective source materials, but since I'm actually not that concerned with who wins that match I'm not going to get into a long debate about it. |
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