Forum - View topicBest Hero/Heroine Tournament: Finished!
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Aylinn
 Posts: 1684 |
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I fail to see how this makes Tenma less heroic. These paragraphs just inform me that Tenma does not look like a hero. Tenma may be stressed, but it doesn’t prevent him from helping. This stress is reflected on his face, but NOT in his actions. It hasn’t made him indecisive when it comes to helping. He has never doubted whether he should go to Ruhenheim, nor does he hesitate to save people on other occasions. Tenma is being indecisive only when he has to shoot, so I don’t think that lacks decisive nature, especially since the only time we see him waver, is during those two meetings with Johan. Kenshin’s appearance may be fit for a hero. However, appearance in itself doesn’t make anyone more heroic, IMO. I have recently re-watched Monster, so I'm confident that Tenma doesn't show indecisiveness more than those two times. On the contrary, he displays a lot of determination to save people who are in troubles. |
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Ikari1
 Posts: 531 Location: London |
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Who would you rather have watching your back as your hero, who would you trust to always come running to help you? Kenshin isnt about looking like a hero. He is constantly and always helping others at his own exspence. He doesnt believe he will ever be forgiven for his past sins but he continues on anyway even after he cannot use his sword anymore. His swordsmanship which he uses solely to protect others, slowly eats away at his life the more he uses it. I cant say that theres anything more heroic than giving over his life to others. He is the most selfess character I've seen in an anime series. I just think he is a much more reliable and note worthy hero than Tenma who aside from his good deeds and determination doesnt instill the same sense of 'everything will be alright', that Kenshin does. The battle he has with Enishi in reflection OVA is a good point to look at when considering Kenshin's character as a hero. You also cant completly forget or look down upon the personal battle Kenshin constantly wages with himself and the amount of effort that takes in battle to control his emotions especially here Karou is concerned. Kenshin's enemies constantly use people close to Kenshin to catch him at a disadvantage and try to discredit him by drawing out the manslayer, but he never gives in, keeping his vow to never kill to the very end. Tenma hesitated to shoot on a couple of occasions but then that kind of tells me that aside from not being sure if he can take a life; which is an admirable trait on some levels, that he in fact doesnt really know what he wants to achieve by tracking johan.
This isnt commenting on (correct me if I'm wrong) kenshin simply looking like a hero, it is saying that Kenshin holds a heroic presence on the screen that goes beyond his actions and looks. This is a close call, yes but Kenshin's character is more heroic when all's said and done. |
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arachneia
 Posts: 415 Location: On the wings of Bob Lennon |
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I can't believe that it's sunk to this, but here. You would really count on this over this? Really?
By the way, Ikari1, I'm sorry for not getting back to you sooner. I'll respond more in depth later if you want me to, but right now I don't have much time and I'll keep it short. You bring up Tenma's circumstances as unnecessarily cruel - Eva being a bitch and Heinemann being corrupt, etc. The thing is, these are realistic circumstances. Perhaps unusual and overly negative, but not nearly so over the top as spoiler[accidentally killing your wife]. A difference in degree, and so on. That's what I mean by melodramatic - obviously contrived and emotionally manipulative, to the point of bathos. |
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rainbowcourage
 Posts: 1216 Location: what is commonly known as "hell week" |
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Not that this was addressed to me, but I did bring up this point. I mean to say, which strikes you as more unusual and "plot devicey"? That the child Tenma saved just happened to be a genius serial killer, or that Kenshin spoiler[killed his own wife accidentally]? Which is a more likely occurrence? The answer seems obvious to me. Perhaps Kenshin's circumstance is portrayed more melodramatically, but I still would not call it a plot device any more than Tenma's circumstance. I've lost the thread of this argument anyway. I believe it started with certain people trying to argue Kenshin's case by claiming his heroic presence and trustworthiness. I have a suggestion for those people-that's not going to work. Kenshin and Tenma are pretty equal on that ground, but something as subjective as "heroic presence" isn't an argument that can be taken seriously.
If anyone has feelings of over-blown guilt, it's Tenma. He is in no way responsible for the people Johan kills or will kill at the time Tenma saves him. Tenma is simply doing his job and fulfilling his moral obligation. Tenma decides to take that responsibility onto himself. Kenshin does have a reason to feel guilty because of all the people he assassinated during his reign as Battousai. How would a "real person" deal with that guilt I'd like to know, other than swear never to kill again? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Anyway, I'd like to reiterate my original thinking. Kenshin and Tenma are pretty much equal in their altruism and their willingness to help humanity. I believe they both have presence, though that is too subjective to be relevant to the argument. In the end because of the world Kenshin inhabits his reform is very successful- he kills not a single person throughout the series, and every person he is not able to reform he somehow prevents from causing harm in the world. Tenma's hesitation in killing is not practical in his world, and he is, unfortunately, unable to turn all the criminals he comes into contact with away from their careers. It's a very narrow margin, but it's settled for me. |
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Ikari1
Posts: 531 Location: London |
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And ? Thats a pretty weak reason for Kenshin and all the other ''non realistic' hero's in ''non realistic circumstances'' to be discredited dont you think. Hell if we were to consider heroics in this tournament on realism alone we might aswell just have tenma and a few others running running around all by themselves. Besides Kenshin is (very) losely based on an actual person and actual events. The story it's self is based on an actual period of time that actually happened so to speak. The whole point about heroic presence is something that comes about as a result of us viewing his character and what we make of it. It's not as if it's irrelavant.
Have you seen my avatar. |
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sandpuck
 Posts: 22 |
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Group A-29
Kenshin Himura, Ruroni Kenshin franchise vs. Dr. Kenzou Tenma, Monster Kenshin. He's extremely reassuring in every possible way. Group A-30 Goku, Dragonball franchise vs. Shu Maritani, Now and Then, Here and There Shu. There's more seriousness to him. |
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mow123
 Posts: 339 |
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Not that it matters much, but I made a mistake when I voted this round. Changing my vote from Goku to Shu. Not only did I choose for him to win in my bracket; he is obviously the better choice even though I haven't seen wither series. Based on the comments, this is an easy decision.
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Olliff
 Posts: 550 |
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While it is true that Tenma doesn't look particular heroic, this is not why I am choosing not to vote for him. Both men are top-tiered heroes, but there are few key differences that make this decision relatively clear- cut. Moral code - both men are dedicated to helping others and are very much altruistic and caring. Life is sacred to both characters - one is a doctor and another is a warrior who has a vowed never to take another life again. If you look at it this way, these characters have a lot more similarities that first appears from the surface, however, there lies one distinct difference concerning morals. Kenshin does not waver, nor does Tenma through actions, but mentally Tenma is intensely conflicted on whether is right to take an evil's man life. This confliction is not constrained only to his mind, Tenma in fact dedicates his entire life to a mission that would clearly violate his vow as a doctor to never take a life. Back to your original argument you argue that Tenma only looks stressed, and that it doesn't affect his actions. In some cases, including all of the examples that you mentioned I agree, however, during some of the most vital moments Tenma falters under the pressure and not only becomes indecisive, but makes a decision that I believe wasn't made because he wanted to save a life, but out of cowardice. 95% of the time, Tenma is a brave man; he proves his bravery countless times. However, whenever it is ever necessary to pull the trigger for a certain someone Tenma buckles under the pressure like clockwork. Heck, he was even able to spoiler[ pull the trigger to shoot Roberto. ] Personally, I believe that heroes are not measured by only the sum of the actions or beliefs, but also by how they act during the most stressful and tenuous of times -- Tenma is a great man and it is undeniable that he is a hero, but based on this measure Tenma clearly fails. Some argue that this is fine because he is only following his own set of morals, which is an argument that has a certain level of merit to it. However, if Tenma was truly dedicated to his vow to never take a life why would he ever make it his primary mission to kill a man? |
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blazingeyes
 Posts: 15 |
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I held off voting because I've been interested in how the Kenshin/Tenma argument was going, but I'll vote now.
A-29 Kenshin Tenma seems a lot more conflicted and uncertain from what I've heard. Kenshin always sticks to his principles and will do anything to help anyone. There's a lot more reasons I'd vote for him but they've been said by others already. A-30 Shu I haven't seen either but Shu seems more of a genuine hero. |
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arachneia
Posts: 415 Location: On the wings of Bob Lennon |
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There is no such vow. He simply believes that all humans are equal, and none have the right to arbitrarily decide who dies and who lives. His decision to kill Johann stems from Johann's danger to other people - although it is at odds with his personal philosophy; his decision to hold off on the killing stems from his new knowledge of Johann's past and psyche, and the possibility that Johann may not be fully responsible for what he is doing. |
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Ikari1
Posts: 531 Location: London |
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He is indesisive then ? |
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murph76
 Posts: 3291 Location: Akron, OH |
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A-29
Kenshin Himura, Ruroni Kenshin Dr. Tenma, Monster Voting for Kenshin, based on other's comments, especially rainbowcourage's:
A-30 Goku, Dragonball Shu Maritani, Now and Then, Here and There Voting for Shu. He has the moral courage to stand for what's right no matter his circumstances, and the world changes because of it. |
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Mad_Scientist
 SubscriberModerator  Posts: 3013 |
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Group A-29
Kenshin Himura, Ruroni Kenshin franchise vs. Dr. Kenzou Tenma, Monster My vote: Dr Kenzou Tenma I had planned on making massive arguments in Tenma's favor this round, but unfortunately some distractions delayed me, and now it's a bit late. Regardless, I'm voting for him, a true hero. Tenma is a man who values human life so strongly he'll save a terrorist, at risk to his own life. He's a man who, throughout the course of his series, inspired countless people and changed their lives for the better, from a former soldier to the people at his hospital to an entire small village. He's a man who takes in an orphen and cares for him. He's a man who shows bravery and courage countless times and faces off against murderers and nazis and other horrible people. He's a man who fits every single part of Key's description of a hero related at the start of this tournament. Group A-30 Goku, Dragonball franchise vs. Shu Maritani, Now and Then, Here and There My vote: Shu Maritani Shu was the only guy in this group who I might vote for over Tenma, which should say something. Shu faces horrible hardship and never backs down from his convictions. He faces circumstances that would break most people, and he endures. He risks his life for others on numerous occasions, and displays acts of insane courage. He is an incredible hero. |
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ccdx
 Posts: 312 |
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No to pumped up for this group but gotta vote.
Group A-29 Kenshin Himura, Ruroni Kenshin franchise vs. Dr. Kenzou Tenma, Monster Got to vote for Kenshin. Both characters are pretty close in terms of their heroic displays, but Kenshin has the slight edge. This will be my last vote for him tough... Group A-30 Goku, Dragonball franchise vs. Shu Maritani, Now and Then, Here and There Shu definitely. He goes through a ton of crap and hardships most of us would never dream would be possible, yet still manages to keep his sanity and save many lives if not every life of everyone in that strange world. |
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nightjuan
 Posts: 1473 |
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Wish I could be a more active participant in these debates and not just vote, but that's simply the way things are turning out lately.
Group A-29 Kenshin Himura, Ruroni Kenshin franchise vs. Dr. Kenzou Tenma, Monster Both of these characters have their own moral codes or principles, making it fairly interesting to read how the previous debate developed, but my vote ultimately has to go to Kenshin. Tenma is not inherently less heroic, by most standards including my own he would clearly make for an admirable human being, but I do agree that Kenshin's ability to not waver under pressure makes a difference when and where it counts. That's not to say Kenshin has no psychological weak points, he does, but his resolve is expressed in different and perhaps more consistent ways. Group A-30 Goku, Dragonball franchise vs. Shu Maritani, Now and Then, Here and There Not surprisingly, my vote goes to Shu over Goku. Everything I've heard, read or seen about the extremely harsh circumstances he has to face makes him a very strong character. Goku's got an impressive record, but also a number of specific weaknesses that have been discussed in detail before, particularly the arguments made during previous rounds about his preference for fighting when that's not necessarily the most heroic or selfless course of action. |
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