Forum - View topicNEWS: Iowa Collector Charged for Allegedly Obscene Manga
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Animehermit
 Posts: 964 Location: The Argama |
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First off, did you not read my post about all of that media possibly not being related to loli whatsoever. Even if he had just that many anime, its still a stretch of imagination, Anime accumulates over the years your a fan, I myself have accumulated quite a collection, and I am 18 years old and have been a fan of anime for 10 years or so, and i was poor. imagine what a wealthy person could have done? Even if the supreme court ruled against cases like this i can still say i think they(the supreme court) are wrong and unconstitutional. They have been known to be wrong before, case in point: The Patriot Act. I believe that this qualifies as freedom of speech and should be protected by the united states constitution. Books have showed this kind of thing before and they have not been proven to be anymore influential then comic or even anime. Its just that people find is morally wrong for this kind of thing to exist, yet their moral are defined by their religious beliefs. Which, opinion violates church and state because the church is affecting the way you make decisions. does anyone actually read an entire post on this forum? I have had more posts taken out of context then I would care for, so i would ask you not to do so. |
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kharaa
Posts: 3 |
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I think you indeed assume that this is a short lived "obsession" But as the poster above me states, it could be something collected over many years. what makes it an obsession if it is all consuming, controlling and dominating every aspect of your life. Wither it interferes with your normal ability to live or function; the quantity isn't the issue, it's the behavior that would be considered obsessive or not. Edit: I just have to add this in, several hundred media disks, and 7 computers? That's just the police being thorough. you could have 1 actual child pornography image on a computer in your house, and they'll seize them all. I have 5 computers in my house, and a huge case of dvd's of just normal general every day anime. They would seize all that just to make sure.
Indeed, any form of obsession can hurt others around them. However that has not been stated to have been a problem here, again as in my previous point. said only becomes a danger to himself or others, if he allows this hobby to encompass his life, and the lines between reality and fantasy to him begin to blur. As for the books, i have indeed read Hitler's Mein Kampf. I cannot say that i've read Das Capital, however. Even so, both of those works are protected free speech here in the United States, and it wasn't Mein Kampf that Hitler used to rule the Third Reich. And I think you're confusing Marxism with Stalin's warped version of communism.
They have to prove that the work in question, has no artistic value, which most manga, or doujinshi; do indeed have legitimate stories. as for the "kiddy porn" anime thing. That encompasses a very large portion of hentai. A lot of people don't conscientiously realize this, but the vast majority of characters are under the age of 18. which were they real individuals, would constitute child pornography. This is why most of us are nervous over this case, it has the potential of allowing the goverment a base to control any form of media, it deems.. immoral? in ending, I was going to respond to the poster above me also, but he has no points I disagree with. Ignore my various grammar and punctuation mistakes, i just woke up. 
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Unholy_Nny
 Posts: 622 |
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Here's something to think of...
If we're afraid that outlawing digital child pornography will slowly encroach on other rights... Why aren't we afraid that saying it's OK is a step towards legalizing real child pornography? |
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frentymon
Forums Superstar
 Posts: 2362 Location: San Francisco |
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Slippery slope. Whether cartoons depicting fictional minors in sexual situations should be legal or not was a split issue in the first place, while almost nobody supports the legalization of real child pornography. The former won't lead to the latter. |
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kharaa
Posts: 3 |
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Because, real pornography, has a real person, a real child being abused and hurt. an actual crime was committed.
in lolicon, it's all fake, fiction, and while in lolicon there can be some pretty twisted situations; not all of it is like that, nor is there a real person, they don't feel, they don't think, they're the creation of someones imagination. lets give a couple more examples that would be similer. I'm not sure if any of you have read the book "A child called It" It's a autobiography of one of the worst cases of child abuse in california history, i've actually met the guy before, at a conference. That's legal, despite what it portrays, in a literary sense; some of the most horrifying child abuse some can imagine. Because that book is legal, doesn't mean that actual physical abuse will become legal in that sense. The same applies to normal non lolicon(hentai) related anime, Just because it's legal to display someone being brutally murdered, or even scenes of genocide in some anime, that it's going to be made legal in reality. |
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Unholy_Nny
Posts: 622 |
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I'm not saying the legalization of the creation of the materials or the crimes displayed, but the legalization of the possession of the material.
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The Xenos
 Posts: 1519 Location: Boston |
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If we legalize or lessen the punishment for marijuana possession, then next thing you know they're going to legalize more dangerous hard drugs like heroin or LSD. Again, spoilers. spoiler[Cartoons aren't real.] Why waste time on these cartoons where no child was hurt and none of the characters are real. Should the police be going after people who make real child pornography, which is the actual sexual abuse of real children? And, again, if you want to arrest people for owning cartoons, fictional stories, that's a messy area. Under that thinking, people who own Scarface or Saw own snuff films. Doom caused Combine. Ban Cather in the Rye and arrest JD Salinger for the death of John Lennon. |
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tyciol
 Posts: 134 Location: Canada |
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This issue expands a lot more broadly above what you'd consider 'lolicon' area. Technically, the offense stems around pornography of 'minors' (even fictional ones). A minor as far as I know is someone under 18. Even age of consent laws don't matter. A minor can be a person who is older than the age of consent. It may be legal to have sex with a minor above the AoC, but it is illegal to make pornography of them, even if they don't really exist. Tuxedo Mask/Darian and Zoicite are 17/16 in the first season. If you drew Yaoi of this, it would be 'child pornography' by the definition of it, in the United States and in Canada, as far as I am aware. The same would apply to Bulma and Yamcha of Dragonball, who are 16. This is really serious... as far as I know, Bush tried this bullshit and the Supreme Court overruled him, but haters will keep trying to oppress drawings and writings (art) constantly through various means, causing a lot of hassle for people because public opinion is on their side even though the law is not. One thing Americans may not even realize is that no one is even defending free speech in Canada, we don't have your first amendment or anything to protect that. It's been illegal for the past fifteen years ever since they raided the art gallery of this guy in Toronto. After that, they labeled Gordon Chin a sex offender for his loli mags. It's totally ridiculous, no real minors are even being involved here, it's persecuting the sharing of ideas via communicative mediums, thoughtcrime 1984 type stuff, the beginning of further future oppressions. The type of people who support this are usually the type who want to intrude into other various matters as well. |
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enurtsol
 Posts: 14871 |
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Heh, a creepy lolicon/shotacon/pedophile isn't a criminal without violating crime laws.
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LiuXuande
 Posts: 201 Location: Chicago |
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I'm guessing this is just going to become one of those scapegoat cases from the way the discussion is going.
Some stuff you guys should look at when evaluating this case: The Miller test (the open interpretation "test") CCPA 1996 (the double edged sword...seeing as a life-like virtual image is not synonymous to drawn/animation) More Wikipedia, yay I'm not taking sides on morality, and there are stuff people are into that I find extremely weird and wrong. But that's not the issue, the issue is, from my point of view whether this turns into a "1st amendment vs. all" kind of argument or if these laws will change the Common law for cases like this one in turn affecting future ones (which is what we should be concerned about; this kind of court decision is what would directly impact our "community", if you believe in such a thing, in future cases like this). If you read the CPPA, that seems to be one of the supporting pillars the "interstate transport" claim, so if the material is found to not fall under CP, that claim is null leaving only the "obscene" claim tested by the Miller test...assuming nothing else is pulled out of the wookwork. We still don't know the content, so we still can't pass this guy off as a martyr/saint, or criminal quite yet... 
Geez, I sound like a law student >.< |
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Ariolander
Posts: 66 |
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That is comparing apples to oranges. The difference between so called "virtual child pornography" and "real child pornography" is that real CP has real victims. These laws should never be about outlawing something we disagree with but rather protecting children from harm. Anyone who would molest a child needs to be shot because you don't do that to children. I have no problem with lolicons however because to each his own as long as he isn't hurting anyone. The dude has a collection of over 1,200 books and 11 are related to the case. The "obscene" material doesn't even make up 1% of his collection I would hardly call the dude a lolicon. Also the dude is 38 years old and likely the collection has been built up over a number of years. Assuming he started when he was 18 thats like purchasing 5 manga a month and I would hardly call that an "obsession". Just because you have disposable income and can afford what you like doesn't mean your obsessed. I mean over the course of 4 years I have accumulated ~200 books so that is like 4 manga a month and not to far from Hadley himself and I wouldn't call myself "obsessed". Pretty sure you could find some DFC (Delicious Flat Chest) in my collection if you tried too... /me eyes my "Mature" rated Yubisaki Milk Tea volumes suspiciously |
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Unholy_Nny
Posts: 622 |
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I could say the same thing when comparing Negima to loli-porn, but that doesn't stop people from assuming outlawing the one is a single step towards outlawing the other. |
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grgspunk
Posts: 136 |
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If you make statements like that, do you even know what the term "pornography" means? I mean, I can make comparisons with Negima to other anime/manga featuring pantyshots and nudity, but other anime/manga with explicit loli-sex? Heck, I can't recall Negima having any scenes where loli characters imitated acts of sex. |
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Unholy_Nny
Posts: 622 |
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No, Negima is nowhere near close to porn, IMO. I'm even a huge fan. What I was saying is that people seem to be so worried about loli-porn being banned because it's one step towards stuff like Negima being banned. I mean, seriously, the past 13 pages are FULL of "What's next? [insert whatever here] gets banned because of [insert reason here] ?" Where are the worries of "What's next? [insert whatever here] gets legalized because of [insert reason here]?" |
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grgspunk
Posts: 136 |
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Oh, well THAT'S understandable. Thanks for clarifying.
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