Forum - View topicFansubbers these days...
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Sheleigha
 Posts: 1674 |
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I remember a couple months back was a rather lengthy Youtube fansubber arguement, where the person felt that a direct translation with bold, legible subtitling was better than various subbers who enjoy making large, flashy letters with TONS of side/translation notes. Yes, sometime it can be a little annoying, but I have noticed a NEW trend that is REALLY starting to get on my nerves... I call it 'fansub commentary'.
And yes, I realize SOMEONE will make a post saying 'well fansubs are free! The people don't HAVE to be making them!' (someone always seems to...) but I'm just sharing how I feel about this new trend and if there are others that feel the same way >_> Subs are for fans, by fans. No, they don't have to do them, but it's a hobby and there will ALWAYS be people trying to be the first to get them out, get hits on their site etc etc. Anyways... 'Fansub commentary' seems to come into 2 forms, so I've seen. One, is where they add translation variations IN the subs. Now, I realize MANY people learn vocabulary and grammer off fansubs. I have learned... quite a bit myself^^ But is it absolutely necessary if a sub says 'problem' to put in brackets the word "trouble" because it COULD be read as either or? Occasionally I have seen FULL sentences done up like this. The second form of these subs, is where the typist likes to include their person views on the script/video. Often it has to do with how hot some female character it is or SOMETHING to do with sexual hints here in there. I suffered through quite a bit of that in Wolf and Spice... No, I don't really care how hot Horo is (I'm female anyhow >_>), and no, she is not hinting at sex every 10 minutes -_-; You see, with these 'commentaries' whether it be grammer notes, or personal opinions of the subber, they like to add these notes IN the main subs... I'm a fast reader and like to read my subs of dialogue. But, when all this extra stuff is thrown in, sometimes filling up the ENTIRE or half the screen of text, and the timing is in the same length as a person is to read the actual dialogue... I often actually miss alot of it because I don't know where the dialogue ends and where the brackets begin >_> My eyes are programmed to read what is there^^ ...I am SURE there are others out there that know what I am talking about and are rather annoyed of these as I am. I like to enjoy my subs, but when the show only has ONE person subbing them and the actual show is either unlicensed or won't be for sale for a looooong time.... yeahhhh..... |
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Kimiko_0
 Posts: 1796 Location: Leiden, NL, EU |
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For the more popular anime there are often two or three groups doing subs, so you could always switch to a sub that doesn't have the things that annoy you. If it isn't popular enough for that, well, you'll have to either put up with it or learn Japanese yourself. Or, maybe you could contact the subbers and ask them to cut out the nonsense. They're people too, so there is a chance they'll listen.
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ShadowTrader
 Posts: 231 Location: NJ |
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I have personally yet to encounter the problem you are having. Almost all the fan-subs I have watched have been very professionally done and I dare say maybe even better then the industry can do. But I do acknowledge the fact that the problem exists, however I avoid it by waiting a good amount of time for a quality release or following a stable fansubbing group, not just ONE person. Also unlike you, I enjoy explanation "notes" in my anime, especially if something said needs a cultural translation. For example, Gintama is a show that continuously parodies a variety of different things from Japanese culture and society, and if it wasn't for the editors notes I would be completely lost, so its a great help!
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Sheleigha
Posts: 1674 |
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Oh I'm not even talking about those. I meant grammar variations, etc. The type you are refering to are actual side notes where the subber adds them about a reference to a cultural word or phrase, often at the top of the screen. Such as: "dialogue blah blah blah shinigami" with the top of the screen saying "shinigami: definition here". The one I'm refering to is a word or sentence, where they cram the notes into the dialogue subs, refering to the actual grammer. Such as: "dialogue dialogue etc etc etc etc {also can be read as this and that OR this and that and that}". To understand a GOOD example of the subs I am even talking about, I just watched the newly subbed Wagaya no Oinari-Sama ep 19 which has examples of both of what I am trying to explain, including the entire screen of text of a grammar difference in one shot, when only maybe 4 words are actual dialogue... This episode really isn't THAT bad with it, but just as an example for those who don't understand of what I am even talking about. |
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Agoston
 Posts: 225 |
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I watch a lot of fansubs (that's beside the point so no flaming please) but I've never seen things like what you're referring to here. I've seen a bunch of cultural explanations like the shinigami thing, but none of the grammar variation things.. That sounds like a pain to read though.
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Kruszer
 Posts: 7991 Location: Minnesota, USA |
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I don't really know what you're talking about. How about a screencap or two? That might help. I don't recall ever seeing anything like that.
My beef with some fansubbers (2 namely) is that...well if you read their websites they're a bunch of self-rightious, sanctimonious a**holes. Last edited by Kruszer on Sat Sep 27, 2008 6:04 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Top Gun
 Posts: 4737 |
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Yeah, I've found that in-situ translator notes can be intensely irritating. I'm already looking at the bottom of the screen to read what the character is saying; I don't then have time directly afterwards to direct my eyes in the top of the screen to take in another sentence or two of information that disappears in the next second. And that's not even bringing up the fact that it entails covering up that much more of the image with text. I made fun of one fansubbing group after seeing the extensive end-notes that they created for their sub of Ergo Proxy (which I found excessive to the point of being pretentious), but I do have to at least give them credit for holding off on the notes until the end of the episode, when the viewer can read them at their leisure. A mass of text on-screen that literally forces you to slam for the pause button to read it all is just about the most immersion-destroying element I can think of while watching an anime episode.
As for other sorts of commentary, I've only seen a very few examples of that, and it's always come during the eyecatches, so it didn't bother me at all. If it had been in the middle of an episode, however, I would have found it even more annoying than the regular sort of note. Edit: I can't say that I've seen the word replacement suggestions that you seem to be specifically referring to, though I think they'd make me want to wring the fansubber's neck. 
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abynormal
 Posts: 427 Location: Louisiana |
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The kind of subs I really hate are the ones where the quality checker was either lazy or AWOL, letting things like "u" and translations that are obviously awkward or incorrect slide.
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Elfen12
 Posts: 479 Location: Bay Area |
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To take this form of approach is rather adequate i think. If they're making these things themselves, who are you to tell them how to do it. Do you think you've got the right way, who cares how they do it. If they're the ones doing it, let them do it the way they want to do it. And seriosly, getting irritated over something that's supposed to help and inform you about something, that's just plain rude. To insert my opinion here, i actually like those little "Note: words words information words" things that they insert in there. It provides knoweldge to be learnt about not only the japanese culture, but about the language or about things that perhaps most watchers have no idea about like certian old japanese or modern japanese rituals and slang or what ever.
However if it really bothers you that much, and you feel like you're in a "making a difference" mood, then why dont' you try to do something about it. Like maybe taking this simple 5 step procedure to stop this so called "trend" that seems to be picking at your nails the wrong way. Really, if you do somethin' about it then bravo. Step 1: Learn Japanese... doing so will allow you to not watch subs and you'll be happier already, annnd.... s Step 2: Make your own subs... clearly this has seemed to pick at you at the wrong spot, so making your own subs will stop that. Step 3: Don't add the commentaries... It appears as that's your complaint, the first step in stoping something is to not do it yourself Step 4: Put them on Veoh or Youtube, or any other perferred video website. Step 5: Feel Accomplished that you've made a difference to yourself Or try this faster 1 step Procedure... Step 1: Deal with it... i'm going to deform this quote a little here taken from The Getbackers, but "Life isnt' all rainbows and roses my friend" Things aren't going to be perfect. If they are, what fun would life be? If you don't like the idea of those "Fansub Commentaries", then just dont' watch the subs, or have something called Patience. Wait till they come out on DVD or DUB and be a Happier Camper. Or just deal with this thing i like to call Tough Luck. -Not the happiest, Elfen12- (not becuase of your post though, i find it interesting). |
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ParagonDoD
 Posts: 34 |
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I thankfully have not encountered such absurd translation commentary. While I appreciate a little more variety than the bold Arial vomit-yellow subs, I can't see the point in interrupting the viewing experience to tell you that a character is hot--do they think we're not watching the show? Can we not see the character? If so, how would we be reading the subs?
Edit: Also, who cares if it's free? If it's trash, you can recognize its flaws no matter what it cost. If I offered you a free soda and it turned out to be laced with Ipecac syrup, would you be happy? Last edited by ParagonDoD on Sat Sep 27, 2008 11:10 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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DFBTG
Posts: 385 Location: Hell |
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Honestly, I haven't had the problem you had. In fact, I quite welcome 'commentary' or rather, linear-notes if you will. I'm not from Japan, nor do I know their culture exceedingly well, so things explaining events/myths/etc. relating to Japanese culture aide me in enjoying the show. How many times do you think something you don't understand is funny? But I suppose that's one side, a positive one, actual personal opinions about a certain character would tick me off if they decided to plaster them on the show. Before or after it, go ahead and rant on, during it...no, just no. Then again, I can't rightfully complain seeing as you know....the whole free thing.
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Zalis116
Moderator
 Posts: 6896 Location: Kazune City |
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I've never seen the blatant "language lesson" subtitles you've described. That's not to say they don't exist, but let me theorize something: It might be a technical issue. Many "fansubbers these days" release softsubbed .mkv, which can cause problems with media players with insufficient support. The way AegisSub (the program that most fansubbers use) works, comments can be added in {braces} to facilitate the editing process by suggesting alternate wordings or adding clarification on the part of the translator for other team members who don't know Japanese. These {comments} aren't meant to be displayed in the actual subtitles. However, certain older media players don't handle Advance Sub Station (.ass) files properly in softsubbed releases, and will display things that aren't supposed to appear. Other newer media players will correctly parse the lines and not display {comments}. You might run into situations like this:
As for the "color commentary," I don't mind it too much in shows like Kanokon that I couldn't take seriously if I tried. But for others like Code Geass, then yeah it's a problem. Best advice I can give is to find another group (if possible, I know there are other choices for Spice & Wolf), and if not, make sure the group and the watching public hear your complaints in a millieu where the group doesn't have administrative power over you, such as certain databases and public forums where multiple fansub releases are discussed and compared. Not their own forums/IRC channel. Not this forum, either. |
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AirCooledMan_2006
 Posts: 594 Location: Delaware, U.S. |
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After seeing the Anime Fansub Documentary on YouTube, and then looking at a fansub of NANA and comparing it to a fansub of Ninteen 19, the former show's subs make me want to punch a baby. And now I hear about color commentary? Sweet evil Jesus!
I saw a mess of translation notes in the NANA fansubs I saw, whereas Nineteen 19 didn't have any of those--just straight subtitles that one could read while simultaneously not even noticing them. But fansubs these days...why must they keep putting in situ translation notes while picking and choosing what to translate and what to leave in Japanese? The point of a translation is to TRANSLATE, not say "Oh, it can't be changed" and leave it as is! If you can't translate, you have no business being a translator. Do it right and translate EVERYTHING, or don't do it at all. No sane and sober anime fan wants to watch an anime and have to worry about what a "ryokan" or a "nakama-doushi" is (Why can't they just use the English word instead?), nor do they want crazy fonts, nor do they want every text animation and blending effect Photoshop has to offer pasted on the show they're watching (Kids, there's a reason why proper DVD subtitles are in plain colors/fonts), nor do they want color commentary cluttering up the screen! If you're going to watch subs, you should have plain, readable subtitles without any of those intrusive translation notes or language-mixing, which by the way is BAD, and not something you want to do if you can avoid it. Your focus should be on the animation and artwork. You want translation notes? Get them off the screen for God sakes, and put them in a separate text file! Ditto color commentary! I blame the sorry state of fansubs on elitist neckbeard weeaboos who want anime to be all "cliquey", treating the Japanese language as if it was handed down on golden plates from God Himself and must never be altered. Grr... |
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walw6pK4Alo
 Posts: 9322 |
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No, it's not a matter of fansubs making the subs problematic for VLC, it's the fact that people use VLC for any kind of show with softsubs. I'm not sure how the new version handles it, but it's best to just avoid the player at all costs. All OS's have other plays they can use to display the subs well.
As for how fansubbers handle subtitles, all I need is someone who can use proper English most of the time and at least try to get all the lines translated. After that, have a QC and you're good to go. All the whining about TL notes seems odd to me, I almost never see TL notes anymore, and if I do, they're usually quite and inconsequential. The worst TL notes I've ever seen were some Miyuki fansubs (I've never seen anything else they've done) of Shuffle! They'd have these boxes slowly crawl on screen to tell me what they're cooking or some shit. Yeah, then it's annoying as hell and should be persecuted, but from later 2006 and on, TL notes seem to have died down exceptionally in fansubs. If I watch 50 episodes a week, I might possibly see only 1 note here or there, and usually I don't even pay attention to it. Though people like Zac might rage at this, after you've listened to Japanese long enough to know how the basic sentence structure is set-up, it's kind of easier to see the subtitles sort of set-up in the same fashion. The trend now is to not try to westernize everything, it's to try to somewhat preserve the original feel of the show, as close to the same way the Japanese get to experience. I was watching the R1s of Burst Angel last week, and the subs were awfully misplaced and adding things in that the characters didn't say. Some of us do like more literal translations than liberal. |
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Ohoni
Posts: 3421 |
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Meh, I've long since learned not to kick a gift horse in the teeth. Yeah, fansubbers are often a bit self-absorbed, yeah, they often translate things funny, yeah, they sometimes take days or even weeks to release anything new, but what's the alternative?
Even at their worst fansubs come out months if not years ahead of the domestic release, and if nothing else, they're free. These people are not paid for their work, so why should they particularly care about doing anything other than exactly the job they want to do? If the style they take offends you, fire off an email or comment about it. If they ignore or refuse your request, you're done. They have no reason to comply other than if they agree that you're right, which chances are, they won't. If another group works on the series, watch that group's stuff. If not, put up with whatever BS the existing group cares to get up to. If you can't do that, then wait a few years and it might get liscensed. If not, do without. |
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