Forum - View topicANN Book Club -- Serial Experiments Lain.
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Ggultra2764
 Subscriber Posts: 3968 Location: New York state. |
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Foreshadowing of Lain not being completely submissive to Eiri came from what happened at the end of episode 10 when her other personality snapped back at him. But yes, we shall wait and see in the next volume. This will also be the case with Yasuo's motivations with Lain. As for what Karl said, here was the line you were refering to from episode 10:
Could this mean that Karl wanted to see Lain as a normal girl instead of a being in the Wired? It seemed this way, especially with how he reacted towards her in episode 7 when he told her that her actions were becoming dangerous and it goes along with my theory on what I think Lain truly is. I'll elaborate more in the next discussion. |
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BrothersElric
 Posts: 1996 |
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Yeah, don't worry about it, you're forgiven. 
Hmm, that's interesting. It seems to me like the missing link to my misunderstandings is the whole idea of the Knights and Eiri trying to get Lain to join with the Wired, which I totally missed for some reason...... I mean I already knew they were trying to make Lain's life more miserable by breaking her bonds with her friends and family, I just missed somehow the reason why they were trying to do that. So yeah, basically I understood what everyone was saying, just not why. Most of that seems to make more sense now though. Most anyways. I'm still a little confused as to what exactly the experiments are. I fully understand what it's purpose is, yeah, I just don't understand what exactly it is they're doing with Lain that's helping them do that. Like I think what had me more confused than anything was why Lain was connected to all those Wires when those MIB guys were talking to her. I also think that's what my problem was with understanding why Yasuo was saying what he did as well. As for Yasuo's comments, that one seemed to be the most straightforward of all the others, I think it was all that talk about Lain's purpose or whatever that threw me off. I'm also seeming to have trouble making sense of what Lain meant at the very end of that episode by "what does it matter what's real or not anymore?"
Heh, well I don't even understand why Eiri says it, so I'm more lost about it than you are.  Actually though, when I think about it, it seems to have more to do with him just simply loving and taking pride in his own creation than anything else.
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Ggultra2764
Subscriber Posts: 3968 Location: New York state. |
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At this point, Lain has now fully given into the Wired. Without any human attachments, she would suffer from loneliness being in the real world hence having all the wires attached to her. She now feels totally detached from the real world and her attachment to the Wired is all she has left. But that doesn't mean she has completely submitted to Eiri's will. Her comments were a front by Lain's Wired personality since she no longer cared much for whether or not her life is real. I'll elaborate more on what Yasuo wished to accomplish in the next discussion.
With Eiri boasting that he created Lain, he believes that Lain should be obligated in loving him since he claimed to have created her as he loves her as a 'creation.' |
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Dorcas_Aurelia
 Posts: 5344 Location: Philly |
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Assuming you're asking about why she had the wires physically attached to herself rather than her emotional isolation (what Ggultra was explaining): Lain no longer needs her navi to connect to the Wired - she can do it directly as long as she has some sort of access point. |
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Ggultra2764
Subscriber Posts: 3968 Location: New York state. |
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An access point, yes. But, Lain's treating herself much more differently now since she feels detached from the real world. Before episode 10, Lain only needed a Navi and she could send her consciousness into the Wired. She never used all those wires when she felt attached to the real world. With her mind warped from all that has happened to her, there has to be some reason why she has all those wires attached to her and that is something that will be explored in the final volume of the series. |
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BrothersElric
Posts: 1996 |
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Yeah, this is more of what I was confused by. Pretty much everything (well, I guess not everything, but most everything anyways) that has to do with Lain feeling isolated from the real world because of everything she's lost there I got perfectly fine the first time. Although both Ggultra's posts does help me put that into more of a perspective.
Hmmm, yeah, definitely sounds like a criticizm of religion to me here. I was wondering if that might be a possible deeper meaning to all this. Of course being a religious person myself I see no problems with loving god back if he loves you as much as he does, and as much as he's done for you, which is probably why I didn't get it, because that seems to be portrayed negatively here. (guess I'm beginning to see what you meant earlier, JesuOtaku )
I guess in this particular case though, if Eiri is indeed the god he claims to be, then he's not a very good one, that's for sure. Heaven knows I wouldn't want to worship a god like him. |
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Aromatic Grass
 Posts: 2424 Location: Raleigh, NC |
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Still need to compose my comments for episode 10, but here we go:
Episode 11 -- "Infornography" Episode 12 -- "Landscape" Episode 13 -- "Ego" This is the last bit -- we're almost done! 
Btw, this starts tomorrow. Just in case. Last edited by Aromatic Grass on Mon Jul 28, 2008 7:04 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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HellKorn
Posts: 1669 Location: Columbus, OH |
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Ggultra2764, do you have any intention to participate in the upcoming Texhnolyze discussion? I would certainly hope so, because your eye for detail would certainly come in handy (particularly for parts that I'm still hazy on).
(The following is my own take that's sort of come to, rather than something I've thoroughly refined, so if it seems meandering and/or has wholes in the statements, I hope you understand.) (Also, DO NOT READ UNTIL YOU'VE WATCHED THE ENTIRE SERIES. If someone does so, don't blame me for spoiling you.) One of the key concepts in lain is religion and its ideals. Examining the narrative from that viewpoint, one can see the Wired as the salvation that mankind as a whole has been seeking since its inception. So try this theory on for size. In numerous faith systems, ranging from Abrahamic religions to Eastern schools of thoughts, such as Buddhism, there's the desire of transcendence of the mind from the body. It's easy to identify: the body itself is merely a container for the soul (or whatever related idea). A person does not truly die when they pass away -- they simply go onto the next stage of existence, or repeat the process (sometimes a variation of) until certain criteria are met. Essentially, the body is something ultimately undesirable compared to what we can achieve. It brings limitations: pain, hatred, sadness, mortality, etc. Numerous religions attempt to go beyond this physical state to something "aesthetically sublime" (or whatever pretentious phrase you care for). And so, what do we have in lain? People living out their lives with minimal exhaustion from their bodies (not entirely in a literal sense, as the brain is obviously functioning... though another argument could stem from that point, I'll leave the issue at that). Humans have at last succeeded at what they have yearned for millenniums to accomplish. Masami Eiri has initiated this, and is the prime example of such a feat. Thus, for creating this a situation, he has deemed himself to be God/a god. From there, we then deal with a creator to creation duel: why is it that Lain, who has been created only to experience such loneliness and heartbreak, blindly follow the entity that put her in such a position? Eiri posits "unwavering love" and "the ability to escape all this suffering" through evolving humanity to the "upper realm" to Lain for her faith and devotion, attempting to entice the girl homunculus to his side. Alright, now this is where my thinking becomes screwed up, because there's so much information and ideas thrown at the audience in the last two episodes. It's hard to reconcile and process all that information. What can be objectively viewed is that Eiri's belief is flawed: he is not God, nor has humanity truly evolved. His believers have fallen from him, and his godhood is false. Without any followers (in this case, the Knights) and the last one who acknowledges him pointing out that he is not who he think he is (Lain declaring that Eiri is NOT God in episode 12), his religion crumbles. Thus, in a sense, religion is an illusion that is only alive when there are those willing to believe in it. (It should also be pointed out that the empathy that Alice displays to Lain is also a key turning point. It is what Eiri rejects, and because of the absence of such a key emotion, he also falls to ruin. That feeling is vital to humanity, and without it we are mere shells to house data points, as Eiri suggests.) On the second point, this is explicitly stated by the other Lain (?) in episode 13. The Wired is a mere extension of the real world, and is impossible to serve as a substitute. Memories are in constant motion and action because what creates them is, as well: the real world. Thus, the Wired is incapable of carrying such a library of memories. Still, the show does not seem to fully embrace an Atheistic stance; instead, it seems to support the notion of a higher power beyond simple understanding and precise definition. Lain is said to be God in the last episode. This is supported by the fact that Lain is able to reset everyone's memories. Because the Earth has, in a sense, "awakened" (as projected in episode nine), and Lain can be considered the Earth Goddess. She also meets her "father," who greets her in an image not unlike the heavenly visage of Lain from episode six -- perhaps she is encountering the God alluded to in episode 12? So, in the end, Serial Experiments Lain could be ultimately seen as a story that exhibits the Earth Goddess manifesting herself physically and gradually becoming aware of who she is, as well as her responsibilities. (There's a lot of other concepts I've left untouched, such as that Lain is a creation from her "father" that we see in episode 13... or that Lain is a creation of our collective unconsciousness (much like aliens are said to be... perhaps the answer to why Lain appears as an alien to Alice in episode 11), but I've no clue how to incorporate them in the above ramblings. And I probably lost focus on what I wanted to initially say. And my brain cannot deal with every damn thing that the last two episodes throw at us. Argh.) Any thoughts? Edit: Oh yeah, and I have to mention I find it absolutely hilarious that Masami Eiri is a typical, disgruntled Japanese businessman in the reset. |
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Ggultra2764
Subscriber Posts: 3968 Location: New York state. |
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Compared to Haibane Renmei and Serial Experiments Lain, I didn't get as much intrigue and interest with Texhnolyze. It bore me quite a bit at most points and I was lucky to have completed watch of the series. I don't personally own the series either so I can't look back on specific events of it like I could with Lain since I have the series on DVD. So, I won't participate in discussion of the series, no offense to those interested in the series.
Eiri's downfall also was his own ego. All of his actions were fueled by his desires to be someone of a higher authority. Once he realized his godhood was false and that Lain was of higher authority than him in the Wired, that drove him over the edge. Being a disgruntled office worker after Lain's reset seemed proof of this aspect of Eiri's character as well. You forgot to mention Arisu's shock from Lain's clash with Eiri. She couldn't find herself accepting Lain's true nature and the shock broke her down mentally. Realizing how much her presence made Arisu suffer, Lain's friendship with Arisu was her only human connection in the real world and the reason she chose to reset and erase herself from everyone's memories.
At this point, Lain herself was breaking down from her choice to undergo the reset. The other Lain was only rubbing more salt into the wounds and had to likely be the Lain created by the Knights. This drove the real Lain over the edge and she used her power to delete the other Lain.
The creator theory seems plausible during Lain's scene with Yasuo at the end of the final episode. It seems quite likely that Yasuo was working with Tachibana Labs and created Lain as a counter-measure to Eiri's actions. He congratulated Lain for having realized the joys and pains of interacting with others in the real world. As for the alien, I got the impression that politicians traded technologies with aliens based on the information the narrator explained in episode 9. The Wired, Lain, and Project KIDS had to be a result of these technology trades. |
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BrothersElric
Posts: 1996 |
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Yeah, okay, admittedly I went ahead and read all that despite this warning, sorry. Eh, I guess it doesn't matter that much, I've pretty much been spoiling myself silly this entire series by reading everyone's comments before I watched. If anything, it'll be just like they all were; something to help me understand it more when I watch it.
Yeah, but I think I'm going to save them for after I've watched the episodes. I'll probably also do a re-read of you comments after then as well, just like I've been doing so far anyways. It'll probably help me put all of this more into perspective that way. |
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HellKorn
Posts: 1669 Location: Columbus, OH |
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Ah, fair enough. Texhnolyze is easily more alienating and difficult than Lain, in spite of the arguably more focused and streamlined narrative, so that's understandable.
Yeah, a God complex will do that to ya. Actually, to extend on your statement of Eiri's true nature: when an "average" person, particularly one who is disatsified with their current lot in life, chance upon something fantastical, they may develop an obsessive ego around their discovery. As Eiri developed Protocol 7 and subsequently "discovered" Lain, his arrogance began to grow until he thought it possible to achieve godhood. Also, thanks for the bringing up the two points I forgot to mention. Although...
Yeah, the subtitles render it so, but it's still a bit bothersome to not read "Alice"! (Kind of like how Geneon put Alucard's name as "Arucard" on the back of the original Hellsing series.) Oh, and Mika's appearance in episode 12 reminds me of something: anyone else think that the Knights may have created another Mika, just as they did with the second Lain? Kind of irrelevant in the big picture, as "Mika losing her mind" is satisfying enough, but just a thought.
Hm. Possible, though I disagree. I believe that Yasuo we see talking to Lain is different from the one we witness throughout the rest of the series (not to mention we see Yasuo after the reset earlier). If God were to show himself/herself/itself to Lain, it would make sense to don the image of someone who not only Lain is comfortable with, but also figuratively her creator (as an actual father/parent).
Very interesting theory (also considering the apparent interest in UFOs that some of the staff seem to have), although it doesn't quite seem consistent enough with how the series emphasizes reality and fiction blurring, as well as how the human subconscious gives rise to creations. That particular scene in episode 11 may point to the possibility that if humanity has "created" Lain via its subconscious, it has also "created" aliens the same way.
In any case, I would most definitely not recommend doing that with Texhnolyze. At all. It's more discernable at a glance than lain, but is... well, hard to describe the feeling I'm attempting to capture. Just don't read any posts before watching the respective episodes when that discussions comes up. |
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Ggultra2764
Subscriber Posts: 3968 Location: New York state. |
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With Mika, I always assumed that the Knights somehow hacked away her consciousness and made her into a drone to observe things in the Iwakura household. Remember how she acted in episode 9 when she used one of her hands as a phone and rambling? She might have been sending information to the Knights at that moment. |
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HellKorn
Posts: 1669 Location: Columbus, OH |
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Oh, good catch. That makes a great deal of sense, actually. The Knights (and by extension, Eiri) need something that can monitor Lain. What better method than to have on her faux-family members relay the information? I also want to add that the scene where Alice connects Lain on a physical level in episode 12 is really beautiful. For a series so cold and detached, that scene is amazingly honest, and far more effective than the overstated moelodrama* that anime tends to gorge itself on. It's probably my favorite scene of the series, really. *Moelodrama -- a portmanteau (is that the right word? Maybe not) of "moe" and "melodrama." Makes a distinction between the typical melodrama that you commonly come across and the Big Eyes, Small Mouth dating sim-inspired melodrama found with increasing frequency in anime. (Copyright David Lee Goodwin, 2008.) |
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Aromatic Grass
Posts: 2424 Location: Raleigh, NC |
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So I finished the series a day or two ago, I forget, but I've also been finding it hard to really compose my thoughts in a way that even makes sense to myself. Like, I think I got it but am not really sure... Guess that was kind of expected, though, right?
All I can say about the ending was... Wow. The last two episodes were quite a ride and really a great way to end the series, but I can't help feeling as though they created more questions than all the rest of the episodes combined. I can totally see myself watching Lain over and over again, as that's probably one of the best features about the series besides what it actually has to say. Anyway. At the very end when Lain is seen talking with her "father," the only conclusion that I could come to was that he must have been God or the closest thing to whatever Lain was accusing Eiri of being a copycat. At least, that makes sense to me. It was cute that he came to Lain at the last minute asking her to come out of hiding in her bear, which was like a layer protecting her from the real world. Anyway, the appearance of Lain's father kind of threw me off but then seemed to be the most fitting representation imo. Everything being shown after the "reset" was quite a treat, especially Eiri, the crazy businessman version, and the MIB working on the power lines. When Alice/Arisu (I prefer Alice) said something along the lines of "if you don't remember somebody, it's like they never existed" to her friends, I was at first confused as to whether or not she actually remembered Lain. Then we see her a few years later meeting Lain "for the first time," which I thought was a really cute scene. (And I thought it was cool that Alice's younger hairstyle looked a lot like mine did two days ago.) Speaking of Alice, I thought she made a great "human relationship" character for Lain, and in some instances, I could easily see her as the main character of the series. As for Eiri, I agree with what's been said so far about him forging a huge ego cause he thinks he's God and it being his downfall. What I still don't get is the whole Lain-alien thing. Why one appeared in Lain's room, and why Lain appeared as one later in Alice's room... My only thought is that they never really existed as far as the "reality" of the series goes. But what was their real purpose in the show? What HK said about it probably being related to how humans "create" things makes sense, though using aliens just seemed sorta out there (haha, no pun intended) for me. But I don't even know what I'm talking about anymore. So yeah. Wonder how much I really added to the discussion itself...
What I think is similar to what Ggultra said, though I have no idea why she'd show up again in episode 12. If the Knights fell, then why is she still around? I want to (attempt to) touch on your theories on how Lain was formed and whether or not she's a god during the final thoughts phase, so we can drag the discussion out like a whole season of [insert SJ series here] fillers.
lulz |
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Ggultra2764
Subscriber Posts: 3968 Location: New York state. |
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My guess: Lain was originally created by Yasuo as a counter-measure to Eiri's plans. Whereas Eiri was consumed by ego to gain his worshippers, Yasuo attempted to show Lain that while the Wired can be used as a medium for human communication, it could never be a substitute for the real world. Without the flesh, no "human relationship" was possible due to everyone's minds being linked together to form a network. Lain's bond with Arisu was the human connection she gained from interacting in the real world and the drive that allowed her to defy Eiri and make the reset. As for Mika, if Lain's family was a farce, then perhaps none of them were ever related to each other. After the act, all involved went their separate ways. But because Mika was robbed of her mind and orders she received from the Knights, she became nothing but an empty shell and left in the mess of the abandoned Iwakura house. |
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