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Mami-kouga
Joined: 19 Jan 2021
Posts: 208
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Posted: Mon Jun 17, 2024 12:50 am
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[NOTE: This spoiler concerns episode 22. In the future, put some note like this on the post if you're spoiler-tagging the whole thing. - Key]
I hate Paul and will not miss him now that he's gone but I can't deny the strength of the writing that even with my disdain for him I still felt a pit in my stomach at how bitter the victory ended up being. This was an insanely strong episode, it reminded me why I had ever given this show a chance
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NeverConvex
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Joined: 08 Jun 2013
Posts: 2457
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Posted: Mon Jun 17, 2024 8:14 am
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Mami-kouga wrote: |
I hate Paul and will not miss him now that he's gone but I can't deny the strength of the writing that even with my disdain for him I still felt a pit in my stomach at how bitter the victory ended up being. This was an insanely strong episode, it reminded me why I had ever given this show a chance |
This is pretty much how I felt about it, too. I don't really care much for how Paul is written in isolation and am at best highly ambivalent about how Rudy's been written, but their relationship has been pretty well developed, and the reveal that Paul had sacrificed himself to save Rudy from the hydra was legitimately moving. I also thought Paul's rage at Rudy for being so calm given Zenith's plight was really effective, and a rare example of a time I think they've used the isekai component of the show well besides.
OTOH I was a little surprised by the partially CG hydra, given MT's otherwise seemingly endless animation budget, but artwork's generally a secondary concern of mine anyway. Mm, and I'm not sure how I felt about the reveal that Zenith seems to have become an infantile blank slate while trapped in the crystal. It twisted the knife a bit, but I find the 'And now this character behaves like a baby for X episodes' trope exhausting. I'm not looking forward to how that alters cast dynamics and conversations between party members for the foreseeable future.
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jmckenna15
Joined: 23 Sep 2020
Posts: 137
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Posted: Mon Jun 17, 2024 8:34 am
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NeverConvex wrote: |
This is pretty much how I felt about it, too. I don't really care much for how Paul is written in isolation and am at best highly ambivalent about how Rudy's been written, but their relationship has been pretty well developed, and the reveal that Paul had sacrificed himself to save Rudy from the hydra was legitimately moving. I also thought Paul's rage at Rudy for being so calm given Zenith's plight was really effective, and a rare example of a time I think they've used the isekai component of the show well besides.
OTOH I was a little surprised by the partially CG hydra, given MT's otherwise seemingly endless animation budget, but artwork's generally a secondary concern of mine anyway. Mm, and I'm not sure how I felt about the reveal that Zenith seems to have become an infantile blank slate while trapped in the crystal. It twisted the knife a bit, but I find the 'And now this character behaves like a baby for X episodes' trope exhausting. I'm not looking forward to how that alters cast dynamics and conversations between party members for the foreseeable future. |
How Rudy and Paul acted on different extremes regarding Zenith worked really well. Knee jerk reaction is that Rudeus is acting a bit *too* cool about it even if keeping a level head helps with strategic planning. As you said, the isekai aspect is certainly a factor given he refers to his parents as Paul and Zenith still, but he does have something of a point where he's 17 years old and for the last 10 of those years, he's been parent-less. Those are key formative years where he's adapted without his mom or dad, so while it may be harsh to say Zenith was just a woman he lived with, it's not entirely without merit. Remember, he was originally going to stay with Sylphy and his sisters, but it was Norn who ultimately got him to go save their mother. It was as much -- if not more so -- for Norn and Paul than it was for him.
The partially CG Hydra still looked badass though. MT, when they need to use CGI, can use it very well and it blended in nicely. I'm not so worried about the "blank slate" angle here if it's done well and isn't used for cheap jokes or needless melodrama. MT has been pretty good about delivering meaningful stakes and character emotions through its writing so I have full confidence in them to handle this properly.
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maximilianjenus
Joined: 29 Apr 2013
Posts: 2891
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Posted: Mon Jun 17, 2024 10:51 am
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jmckenna15 wrote: |
NeverConvex wrote: |
This is pretty much how I felt about it, too. I don't really care much for how Paul is written in isolation and am at best highly ambivalent about how Rudy's been written, but their relationship has been pretty well developed, and the reveal that Paul had sacrificed himself to save Rudy from the hydra was legitimately moving. I also thought Paul's rage at Rudy for being so calm given Zenith's plight was really effective, and a rare example of a time I think they've used the isekai component of the show well besides.
OTOH I was a little surprised by the partially CG hydra, given MT's otherwise seemingly endless animation budget, but artwork's generally a secondary concern of mine anyway. Mm, and I'm not sure how I felt about the reveal that Zenith seems to have become an infantile blank slate while trapped in the crystal. It twisted the knife a bit, but I find the 'And now this character behaves like a baby for X episodes' trope exhausting. I'm not looking forward to how that alters cast dynamics and conversations between party members for the foreseeable future. |
How Rudy and Paul acted on different extremes regarding Zenith worked really well. Knee jerk reaction is that Rudeus is acting a bit *too* cool about it even if keeping a level head helps with strategic planning. As you said, the isekai aspect is certainly a factor given he refers to his parents as Paul and Zenith still, but he does have something of a point where he's 17 years old and for the last 10 of those years, he's been parent-less. Those are key formative years where he's adapted without his mom or dad, so while it may be harsh to say Zenith was just a woman he lived with, it's not entirely without merit. Remember, he was originally going to stay with Sylphy and his sisters, but it was Norn who ultimately got him to go save their mother. It was as much -- if not more so -- for Norn and Paul than it was for him.
The partially CG Hydra still looked badass though. MT, when they need to use CGI, can use it very well and it blended in nicely. I'm not so worried about the "blank slate" angle here if it's done well and isn't used for cheap jokes or needless melodrama. MT has been pretty good about delivering meaningful stakes and character emotions through its writing so I have full confidence in them to handle this properly. |
Without spoiling anything, it's handled really well, gives us a really cool emotional arc,and is somehow linked to the MAIN plot.
About MAIN, well there is a main plot for the franchise , but elaborating on it is meta spoilers.
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Jabootu
Joined: 17 Jan 2024
Posts: 222
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Posted: Tue Jun 18, 2024 1:13 pm
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From the review:
Quote: | Luckily, he has family and friends around him—people who will not abandon him |
Norn might. They need to get her actively involved with nursing Zenith to keep her occupied. The problem being that she might not have much more of a connection with her mom than Rudy does. Norn was even younger when they got separated during the displacement event, and she certainly wouldn't worship Zenith like she did Paul. Of all the things I'm dreading, Rudy explaining to Norn what happened is the one that makes me wince the most. I think it likely Norn is going to push it the whole thing on Rudy. (Which will again poison her relationship with Aisha, who basically worships Rudy like Norn worships Paul, and probably her relationship with Sylphy as well...yikes.)
Hopefully I'll find something I like next season, but after several seasons of feasting on Frieren and MT it looks like a bit of a bald patch. No Sound Euphonium, no Tsukimichi (not as great a show, obviously, but I love it).... Maybe a couple of hidden gems, but not major returning shows. But then in the fall season....Re:Zero, Danmachi, Blue Lock, Blue Box, Shangri-La Frontier. It would have been nice to have one of those next season where it might have been able to breathe a little more.
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niknasr
Joined: 26 Apr 2015
Posts: 22
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Posted: Tue Jun 18, 2024 1:16 pm
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To give this episode the same stars as tp3 episode is unfathomable irrespective of whether you like Paul or not. I can dare say the silence in the last few minutes reminiscing of Rudeus loss and his state of mind rather than about Paul himself, In addition, the double whammy and the expression at the end besides an excellent group vs boss scene at least deserving of 4.5 if not 5 stars.
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Covnam
Joined: 31 May 2005
Posts: 3779
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Posted: Tue Jun 18, 2024 2:52 pm
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That was an amazing fight. Once they started eliminating the heads, I thought that they should pull back and recharge, but then they showed that the hydra was smart enough to injure itself to heal... great stuff
Not surprising that at least one person died, or that it was Paul, but I didn't expect Zenith to end up like that. Feels like it's a bit much though, just to pile on more trauma to the situation, but I guess it will depend on how it's handled.
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tintor2
Joined: 11 Aug 2010
Posts: 2017
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Posted: Tue Jun 18, 2024 3:22 pm
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Never expected the reviewer to address Rudeus' relationship with Paul like that. Kinda reminds me of Makoto Yukimura's retrospect about the complicated relationship between Thorfinn and Askeladd.
I guess the big difference is that Rudeus managed to overcome his hardships with Paul in a similar way he managed to connect with his sister. Then again Rudeus was split from everybody during the first season's first cour and in the story of the second cour, he nearly turned into a shut in again in the finale. Not sure how the death of a loved one will affect him considering this is actually something serious and important for the guy in contrast to his past life where he didn't care.
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Amuro1X
Joined: 02 Sep 2009
Posts: 191
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Posted: Tue Jun 18, 2024 4:23 pm
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Giving Episode 22 4 stars is kind of wild to me. Like, as a singular episode of tv, it was perfectly executed.
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jdnation
Joined: 15 May 2007
Posts: 2059
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Posted: Tue Jun 18, 2024 8:41 pm
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Heavy stuff!
But I suspect things will get heavier... As given the god-guy did try to warn Rudy that he'd regret going... Will Rudy now blame himself for Paul's death, and wondering if the future might've turned out differently if he hadn't gone? Or would the result have still been the same, except Rudy's carelessness would not have been responsible for Paul's death?
The implications in that 'what-if ?' are going to be interesting.
Great episode! But I feel like the season will end on another downer, but this time with his wife and child, there is more sunshine.
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Jabootu
Joined: 17 Jan 2024
Posts: 222
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Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2024 9:39 am
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jdnation:
Quote: | Will Rudy now blame himself for Paul's death, and wondering if the future might've turned out differently if he hadn't gone? Or would the result have still been the same, except Rudy's carelessness would not have been responsible for Paul's death? |
The question is how clearly Rudy can think things through, especially since I fully expect Norn to add to the guilt he's feeling. The fact is, Rudy most likely saved everyone there (except for Elinalise, who was only there because Rudy went). And, OK, Roxy would have already been dead by that point had Rudy not joined them.
In any case, Paul clearly would have attacked the Hydra the moment he saw Zenith (as in fact he did), and undoubtedly the rest of the team would have thus been forced to follow his lead. That means, with Roxy already dead and lacking Elinalise as a tank, that Paul, Geese and Talhand would have been quickly taken out. They also all would have died in vain as Zenith would not have been freed.
Rudy, for his part, was the one who knew how to kill the Hydra, and the only one powerful enough to see it done. Roxy provided extremely valuable backup fireballs. However, as she also has to say incantations before using her magic, and with a far smaller and less powerful mana pool, there's no way she could of accounted for all the heads. Also, again, sans Rudy Roxy wouldn't even have been there. And Rudy's stone spell was also clutch at the end. I also would not describe his actions in any way as careless. Given the circumstances it's a miracle he made it as far as he did without nearly getting killed.
I'd also like to point out, for all the people still solely thinking of Rudy as a selfish scumbag, that his first reaction upon losing his arm (and not yet knowing Paul was dead), was, "A small price to pay."
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jdnation
Joined: 15 May 2007
Posts: 2059
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Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2024 3:26 pm
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Jabootu wrote: | The question is how clearly Rudy can think things through, especially since I fully expect Norn to add to the guilt he's feeling. The fact is, Rudy most likely saved everyone there (except for Elinalise, who was only there because Rudy went). And, OK, Roxy would have already been dead by that point had Rudy not joined them.
In any case, Paul clearly would have attacked the Hydra the moment he saw Zenith (as in fact he did), and undoubtedly the rest of the team would have thus been forced to follow his lead. That means, with Roxy already dead and lacking Elinalise as a tank, that Paul, Geese and Talhand would have been quickly taken out. They also all would have died in vain as Zenith would not have been freed.
Rudy, for his part, was the one who knew how to kill the Hydra, and the only one powerful enough to see it done. Roxy provided extremely valuable backup fireballs. However, as she also has to say incantations before using her magic, and with a far smaller and less powerful mana pool, there's no way she could of accounted for all the heads. Also, again, sans Rudy Roxy wouldn't even have been there. And Rudy's stone spell was also clutch at the end. I also would not describe his actions in any way as careless. Given the circumstances it's a miracle he made it as far as he did without nearly getting killed.
I'd also like to point out, for all the people still solely thinking of Rudy as a selfish scumbag, that his first reaction upon losing his arm (and not yet knowing Paul was dead), was, "A small price to pay." |
Roxy would most likely be dead.
Though without Rudy bringing them knowledge of the dungeon and teleportation circles, it is doubtful that Paul and co would've ever made it that far. Rudy could've gone there a year later and no more progress might've been made.
So the turning point difference made would be that Roxy lived, and Norn remained at home, safe, even if Rudy has to live with regrets that his carelessness cost him his father's life. As for his mother, her state would've been the same, so all in all, this was the most beneficial outcome - Paul's dead, but Roxy and Norn are safe. The danger now being that Rudy's regret might make him prone to depression again.
As or Rudy's arm, either it get's healed through stronger magic, or he gets the FullMetal Alchemist treatment.
I don't think Norn will blame Rudy, considering he lost his arm, and her birth mother is safe, albeit in a 'Casca' state, but there is hope she will heal. If anything she herself might blame herself for forcing Rudy to go and realize how dangerous it was, and the worst outcome being that Rudy's child and newly wed wife could've also lost a husband and father. All this could cause them both to reflect.
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maximilianjenus
Joined: 29 Apr 2013
Posts: 2891
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Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2024 4:36 pm
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Food for thought.
This is a list of possibilities based on series knowledge, word of the author,etc . They are not spoilers per se, but will put them between spoiler tags, so you can catch up to the community speculation if you wish.
beat scenario: Rudy makes up with eris , they take Ghislaine to the labyrinth, the key element here is Ghislaine, not only she fixes the problem of Paul being the only one that can cut the Hydra's heads, she is actually more capable than paul,she already lost her previous party to a dragon ( one of the port guild receptionista was the other surviving member) so she won't be overconfident, this way we have 0% casualty rate.
Then we have the slow mode, the hydra scales nullify magic by using an equivalent amount of magic, they don't absorb magic. So a long preparation with enough magic crystal so they can fight a war of attrition is the way to safely beat the hydra.
This is not that safe , however, because of the personalities involved, aka Paul, having one important casualty has a 50% chance regardless of Rudy going or not.
Worst case scenario, like 10% is the rudy-less party slowly dying in the labyrinth, starting with Roxy, generally speaking, unless Rudy takes Ghislaine with him, he survival rate in general does not improved, but rudeus makes events go faster ,which avoids both the low probability, best scenario and the low probability, worst scenario.
Now about Roxy dying in the labyrinth, in the worst scenario she does, but that low probability, otherwise Rudy and Elina butterfly effect-ed another adventurer, the anime skipped it but in their travel thru the desert they helped a merchant, said merchant sells a thing to adventurer X . But if they don't help the merchant, adventurer X instead buys *geese 's labyrinth map, and stumbles upon Roxy, saving her. (* Yeah, geese is a clever fellow, because of their goal, he made their maps public , so more adventurers try the labyrinth).
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MFrontier
Joined: 13 Apr 2014
Posts: 12941
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Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2024 10:29 pm
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I know it was probably a complete accident but it feels like Studio Bind deliberately weaponized Fathers' Day to deliver on this episode.
This was probably the most intense action sequence since the fight with Orsted, with the animation to match, and dazzling displays of skills and party tactics against a monster fully deserving of Boss status. If only Rudy hadn't gotten comfortable in that one second...
Rudy's always had a bit of emotional detachment from his parents, always calling them by their name in his head instead of as "mom" or "dad" and never quite fully connecting with them. It's definitely more pronounced with Zenith because, in comparison to Paul, he interacted with her the least but it made the ending of the episode all the more ironic. Though I don't think Rudy fully realized how much he cared about Paul, or emotionally accepted Paul as his father, until that moment. And similarly Zenith's memory is what initially got Rudy out of his post-Eris funk.
Rudy kept trying to avoid Paul's death flags but it just didn't take.
The irony that Rudy sacrificed the arm he named "Heracles" against a Hydra.
There's a lot you can say about Paul. Was he the perfect father? No. Was he the perfect husband? Definitely not. Was he a perfect man? Absolutely not. But all the same he really tried, and he always cared about his family and wanted to do right by them even despite himself. He was brash, cocky, a cheater, and not the best at expressing himself, but he loved his family to bits. And when the chips were down he put his all into saving his wife and protecting his son even if it cost him his life. He earned that funeral pyre.
It is absolutely tragic that the person most committed to saving Zenith, with this arc really making it clear how much he really loved her, never got to see her again. But Paul died happy knowing he saved Rudy and Zenith would be free. Yet he deserved to see his wife again, his family together again, and to meet his grandchild.
I don't even want to imagine how Norn and Aisha are going to react, especially Norn because Paul was her entire world and now she doesn't even get to have her mom back.
I'm not sure how much Lillia loved Paul beyond trying to sleep with him (and the traumatic memory of what he did to her as a child) but I have to admire how she immediately prioritized Rudy's feelings over her own. She is a professional maid to the bitter end.
I do find it kind of amusing that Paul died before learning he and Elinalise were in-laws and Zenith and Lillia only have each other now after losing their mutual husband even though that only happened because Paul cheated on Zenith with Lillia. Families, amirite?
This really was the Turning Point, the things Rudy would regret if he went. He lost his hand, he lost his father, he didn't even really get his mother back. All he gained was saving Roxy.
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Akcoll99
Joined: 28 Feb 2011
Posts: 267
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Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2024 1:24 pm
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I've read the source novels so I was both excited for, and absolutely dreading, this episode.
Even then, I didn't expect it to be anywhere near this exciting or heartwrenching. I genuinely teared up. The capper was watching Lilia's face during the silent portion as she finds out. Anime at its finest.
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