Forum - View topicThis Week in Anime - A Trip Down Memory Lane with Dragon Ball Z
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PurpleWarrior13
Posts: 2034 |
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Whatever. I’m happy DBZ became what it did for reasons stated above. It was a defining show for me and many others my age, and we wouldn’t be taking about it now if it didn’t become what it did. The world of anime in the US would look completely different. I’m not saying everything FUNi did was 100% necessarily for the show to find success, but a lot of it was if they wanted it to succeed here. I do think it could’ve been a hit with a more faithful script and the original score (as much as I far prefer Faulconer’s), but obviously the censorship was necessary for the show to even get on TV. Certainly in 1995, a faithful dub of the original DB would never even make it to air. And no traditional anime company like Viz or ADV would’ve attempted the franchise as a video-only release. One advantage FUNi did have was that they REALLY tried their damnest to make the series a hit here. After all, it’s what their entire company revolved around at the time. Harmony Gold on the other hand had many other properties, and simply dropped DB very quickly when it couldn’t perform. Saban also dropped DBZ when they scaled back their syndication operations (even though it was a decent hit). But FUNi really did try their best, and learned from most (key word: most) of their mistakes. And DB has had it good compared to other shows. The original uncut subtitled version is very easily available, and has been for over 20 years. We can’t say the same about plenty of properties that Saban and 4Kids touched. Sailor Moon only got a complete uncut dub a decade ago. While the DBZ dub took many liberties with the script, at least it was visually uncut on home video (and I believe Toonami Midnight Run. Not 100% sure). It’s even been available with the original score for the last 15 years. I have a difficult time defending the poor home video treatment. I don’t think it’s necessary, but at least the show is easily available. And I’ve been watching the 4:3 30th anniversary discs (at the end of Cell now), and those actually look pretty decent in my opinion, if still far from perfect. And some other DBZ dubs didn’t have it much better. The French dub was even less faithful (to give you an idea, those infamous “Big Green” movie dubs were based off of theirs). The Italian dubs replaced the theme songs. It was just a different time when anime was new to most of the world and treated differently, for whatever it was worth, and that’s the context we just have to accept. And let’s not pretend the franchise is some precious, untouchable, auteur masterpiece like Evangelion or Fullmetal Alchemist where altering the release order of the story is the worst thing imaginable. I’d be the first to tell you that. |
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TheFanCon
Posts: 48 |
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I understand your points well, however at this point after a bunch of things I've read and seen, I'm not sure how much of it they were doing for the show vs how much of it they were doing for themselves, considering they've had a lot to gain from it.
Additionally, I want to mention that I speak of production order/unchanging soundtracks/non-distorted dialogue as a matter of principle. Something that should be done for any series, whether it's a masterpiece or a crowd pleaser. As an example, for a long time I haven't thought very highly of the original DB/Z BGM tracks for one reason or the other, and mostly prefer those of contemporary 80's-90's anime series (like the ones I mentioned previously here and more) because they don't have a lot of the same problematic factors (such as mono recording for some tracks, sounding samey because it's largely all on one key, generally not sounding like the 70's, etc). But even some of those series had their own soundtracks changed as well (another notable example being Initial D), so I can't condemn one while excusing another based on my preference alone. (At one time I also preferred the Faulconer Productions score, but now that I have a better perspective to it as well as greater exposure to actual anime soundtracks of that period like, say, Kow Otani's work on GW, I don't quite view it so highly anymore.) But I know that a lot of its problems were due to FUNimation's mandates and lack of any proper budget because all they wanted was royalties as well as to reinterpret the show in the way they thought fit best with the zeitgeist. |
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PurpleWarrior13
Posts: 2034 |
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Since FUNi eventually reissued the dub with the original soundtrack, I think it’s a completely moot issue. The discs (aside from the DBoxes) have both, so anyone’s free to to choose what they prefer.
The problem with Initial D is that the EuroBeat was a huge part of the show’s identity. Getting rid of it changed the show a lot more fundamentally IMO. Also, Initial D’s Tokyopop score just plain sucked. Kikuichi’s DBZ score is nice, but IMO, isn’t as essential. Personally, I got sick of it when I viewed almost 70 episodes of the dub with it, but that’s just me. You can also argue that the dub and only the dub sounds better with Faulconer’s score, since there’s no denying it has its own distinctive style. And yeah it feels more like a show from the late 90s/early 2000s than the late 80s/early-mid 90s, but that’s the zone I’m in when I’m watching the dub. It’s a turn-of-the-Millennium localization of a show from 1989-1995, and it captures the zeitgeist from both eras. And sometimes business simply has to trump art. That’s why it’s called show business. We wouldn’t have many shows at all if the business side didn’t matter. In my own acting career, I don’t make any major choices without being mindful about that. |
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TheFanCon
Posts: 48 |
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I mean... I did mention that I understand this line of thought as well. I have no shortage of problems with the conventions they chose to go with (chief among them being movie scores reused in the TV show and using some of the same tracks for new moments like first SSJ or SSJ3 transformations, or the Final Flash scene). Generally I prefer a lot of Kikuchi's contemporaries like Seiji Yokoyama on Saint Seiya, or the composer (name redacted because controversial) of Space Runaway Ideon (one of Evangelion's inspirations BTW), as well as newer composers who came after, like Kohei Tanaka (Gunbuster, Brave Exkaiser, G Gundam, also he's the arranger of the first Dragon Ball OP and ED and worked directly under Kikuchi as his debut into anime music), Kow Otani (FGPX Cyber Formula, Heisei Gamera*, Outlaw Star, Birdy the Mighty), Yasunori Iwasaki (Solid State Scouter and other good OST's like Getter Robo Armageddon), Kenji Kawai (Mobile Police Patlabor, Irresponsible Captain Tylor), Toshihiko Sahashi (Big O, Heisei Kamen Rider*), etc. And as a result I can't take your impression away from you nor will I even attempt to convince you otherwise. But I found out that he definitely earned the reputation he got and actually has quite a number of tricks up his sleeve (with motifs). So now I understand why people like it so much. Especially in the movies where he was doing the actual, intended score to picture. *Tokusatsu/Kaiju series & films mentioned here are projects Kikuchi had been involved in at some important points in his career. Last edited by TheFanCon on Sat Jul 01, 2023 8:52 am; edited 1 time in total |
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PurpleWarrior13
Posts: 2034 |
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I do like his score a whole lot more in the OG DB. It’s more varied and IMO, fits the tone and style of that show a bit better. It does start to get repetitive by the end though. And I’d be lying if I didn’t say nostalgia for Faulconer’s score played a part in my and others’ personal preferences. It gets repetitive at times too, but for me, it will always be the “sound” of Dragon Ball Z.
But this is the kind of thing that simply comes with the territory of having so many different versions available. Don’t get me started on the Westwood/Blue Water dubs made for Europe and Canada. |
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mgree0032
Posts: 291 |
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I think that DBZ, Pokémon, and Yugioh are the only times that the dub BGM and soundtracks are better than the original Japanese version soundtracks.
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TheFanCon
Posts: 48 |
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For me, it's not a matter of "better" or "worse". If you like it, fine, if not, well, drop it & move on to some other series. Didn't Gundam Wing air on Toonami alongside DBZ? Didn't that have its original soundtrack that needed no replacement? That has a lot of nostalgic energy also (but with the upside of being a well-done, varied soundtrack).
He actually seems to have downsized his instrument ensembles from DB to Z, as an example, horns are missing and it's less close to contemporary (also without any James Bond references). I guess his idea of fitting the escalation into space (that he actually noted in an interview recorded on a booklet) was to make the score much darker than it had previously been before (there's numerous villain themes because his motifs revolved around them the most when scoring the movies, almost all in F minor save Movie 3). As to nostalgia for the Faulconer score, I can understand, and if you recognize any flaws in it then I can respect that. I'm not really the type of person to attribute people liking it to that though, since there's something in it to like even aside from the action stuff, although for me it feels like imitations of better material done elsewhere (1986 G1 Movie). It feels lacking in more emotional material too. And for there being many different alternate versions, it's not at all a good development. Which is another thing that wouldn't be the case had it gone the way of those two other shonen series from the 80's. |
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PurpleWarrior13
Posts: 2034 |
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I think every show’s situation is different. Gundam Wing was a more recent show aimed at an older audience from a completely different company (though still the same original dubbing studio as DBZ), and yes it was a massive success on Toonami as well (Endless Waltz was once the highest rated program ever on Cartoon Network). I do think DBZ would’ve been fine with its original score, but clearly FUNimation disagreed. At least they didn’t give it some bland forgettable score like 4Kids’ replacement music. I’ve never seen the 80s Transformers show (long before my time), so I can’t compare.
And ideally there wouldn’t be multiple versions, but at this point, most are only known to hardcore fans since FUNi’s dub is the only one available on video or streaming worldwide. Still, I think it’s cool that there’s different versions to watch and compare. |
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mgree0032
Posts: 291 |
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People are not going to rewatch 4kids dub ma, because 4kids had gave them nothing and no proof to shown that they respect the audience as intelligent.
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mgree0032
Posts: 291 |
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People are not going to rewatch 4kids dub anymore, because 4kids had gave them nothing and no proof to shown that they respect the audience as intelligent. Funimation DBZ dub gave the audience and the franchise respect and care.
Last edited by mgree0032 on Sun Jul 02, 2023 1:34 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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TheFanCon
Posts: 48 |
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True, Sunrise isn't Toei. Also, as it came out in 1995 (when DBZ ended), it actually wasn't too drastically different in certain departments (like BGM) from late 80's productions (particularly OVA's but also a few TV series). We do have the first three movies dubbed and produced by Pioneer which kept the soundtrack in the dub though (which is about the only example we have of what happens when a proper professional company can call the shots on the licensing, what could have been...), along with having generally accurate scripts. FUNimation certainly learned nothing from that. I also wouldn't give them too much credit for the way things turned out, aside from obvious safe choices. They made some of the worst ones (first appearance of Future Trunks, Gohan turning SSJ2, Vegeta's sacrifice, etc) even though the people working on the show had better ideas. I think that for that particular score by Faulconer Productions, the way it turned out had a lot to do with the three ghostwriters who worked under the company and had a wealth of material to emulate, along with sharing ideas and re-arranging each other's works here & there. If it had only been the man in question, it would probably be the same result as those other ones. The later ones who replaced them just weren't as good. |
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PurpleWarrior13
Posts: 2034 |
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That's true for their infamous One Piece dub that destroyed their reputation, but people still have fond memories of the their dubs of Pokemon, Yu-Gi-Oh!, Sonic X, Shaman King (enough for most of their cast to reprise their roles for the reboot), and to a lesser extent, Ultimate Muscle, Kirby, and Fighting Foodons. There's also the 2003 TMNT.
That's true, though I've always thought Kikuichi's DBZ score reminded me more of something from the 60s or 70s. I've heard someone compare it to very old Jackie Chan movies, and that's probably accurate.
I do think the writing got better as the show went along, especially after John Burgmeier took over as head writer. Neil Bligh (AKA Christopher Neel) is probably to blame for a lot of the more infamous writing. And Pioneer's dubs for the movies is a massive "what if." In an alternate universe, FUNi would've continued their edited dub with Saban while Pioneer gave the series a faithful uncut dub at Ocean, exactly as what was planned. Even I wouldn't have minded that, but FUNi wanted to have as much control over their property as possible, and I guess I don't blame them from a business perspective.
Mike Smith, Scott Morgan, and Julius Dobos were credited as synthecists and Morgan and Ben Kasparek as editors, but yeah I fully give them credit for how the score turned out. There was one interview with Ben where he straight up said Bruce did nothing except compose the theme (including episode intro/outro music), hire them, and check in on them sometimes. |
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mgree0032
Posts: 291 |
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That was all Al Kahn’s fault and doing. He never realized or cared that One Piece was not something that he should mess with. |
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penguintruth
Posts: 8491 Location: Penguinopolis |
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Unfortunately, watching Dragon Ball Z in English is basically watching a different (and inferior) show than Toei intended. And the movies didn’t escape a lot of those differences, either. It’ll do the NA audiences some good to watch the movies in Japanese.
I’m just annoyed that it’s Hulu that gets Kai. |
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NJ_
Posts: 3090 Location: Wallington, NJ |
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Sonic is somewhat debatable but mostly because of the edits to the Metarex saga episodes and also Sega hiring 4Kids for the video games afterwards. For all the complaints their One Piece dub got, Sonic wasn't far behind back then and while the VAs did improve for the better in later games (I say starting with Sonic Unleashed), their early efforts were criticized badly.....along with the games in question having their own problems which didn't help. |
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