Forum - View topicNEWS: ADV Head Says UK Issues May Be Due to Illegal Releases
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Mr Blister
Posts: 17 |
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Rereading the thread I noticed this post - and without wanting to start a big argument, I have to say that's a pretty dumbass statement. Anime is a luxury, and if you don't have the money for it, that's tough. You don't go off and leech it for free. Seriously, where're your morals? Actually, never mind, I've just decided I'd like a widescreen HDTV but unfortunately I don't have the money right now. Guess I'll just have to go out and steal one. What a drag! 
Reread my post, dude. You support the industry, so you're not leeching. Still I don't think it's ideal that you use fansubs for previewing purposes (and if it's just for previewing purposes, why make a point of "how dare I have a series 2 years before it gets released"? Watching an entire series is one hell of a 'preview', fella.). Last edited by Mr Blister on Thu Mar 06, 2008 4:13 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Joshua-Sensei
Posts: 20 |
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Just don't steal it from the Best Buy I work at, I work Loss Prevention, and don't feel like chasing people down early in the mornings, plus I would lose my bonus. But you are correct not being able to afford something is a bad argument, (I know I USED to use it). Being able to afford it, but it being WAY overpriced is another thing... (here's looking at you BAndai!) edit: Granted it's "one hell of a preview" I loved the series, and was actually afraid it would not be licensed, so I continued to download the episodes. As soon as I heard it was licensed and going to be released I nearly crapped my pants, and went out and bought the first volume. I suppose I use fansubbing like this: If I download an episode and loved it, I download the whole series, if released in the US, I go out and buy the Us release. If more "downloaders" did this, I have a feeling companies wouldn't be up in arms, then again they seem to do their best to use "us" as scapegoats. |
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edzieba
Posts: 704 |
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The 'vote with your dollars' argument is fundamentally flawed. People ARE voting with their dollars. The votes are in, and the verdict? A big DO NOT WANT for the current DVD licensing system. If people wanted their anime this way, they'd be buying it. If they're not, then that means there's a better distribution method that they're using, and that they prefer.
The can of worms is already open, and digital downloads are NOT going to go away. Either change your business model to take advantage of them, create an even better business model, or go under. The movie and record industries have both tried fighting to keep their comfortable old model, and have failed miserably. Learn from their mistakes. Last edited by edzieba on Thu Mar 06, 2008 6:16 am; edited 1 time in total |
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cloud1989
 Posts: 274 |
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if he was saying this about the US he may have a convincing argument if he tried, but this is the UK, we are talking anime, something most younger people like and being young are more adaptive of technology, so they know how to get other regions even though there not really not suppose to, and the fact that they get the same exact release as the US did, only for double the money, 1-2 years later, and no where near everything that the US gets, not to mention maybe lower video quality due to PAL conversion. So you have people on both sides of the law not caring about your European industry because one group gets it for free, and the other imports from the states, the only people who would regularly buy UK releases are those who don't pay much attention to outside their own country, and there is not many people that ignorant in the anime market.
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Mithrandir2K
Posts: 24 |
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Mr Ledford's comment is both disingenuous and petty. Any quote which starts with the word "Perhaps" and ends in a rebuke is always intended to be so. It's a level of propagandist, playground self-gratification that I had always believed the anime industry to be above - how silly of me.
I have always been a strong supporter of the anime industry, within and without the UK. I started out, like many fans in their late-20s, on 4th generation VHS fansubs of Bubblegum. When VHS anime began trickling through the BBFC, I bought it. When the DVDs of those same shows were released in the USA, I bought them, and a multi-region DVD player to put them into. And when those same DVDs were re-encoded for PAL R2, I bought them. This process is often referred to over here as double- or treble-dipping. For the past five years, I have worked with the gamut of industry representatives within the UK, endeavouring to bring them closer to the fanbase. The debate was always the same - the fans wanted more variety of anime available, and at somewhere shy of $40 per disk - the industry couldn't afford BBFCing/licensing for a wide variety of anime, and $40 per disk was what they had to charge. Sometimes the industry would push the boat out on something, and sometimes the fans would respond very positively. Sometimes the industry wouldn't budge, and sometimes the fans would snipe and bitch. But there was, at least, dialogue. The industry communicated with the con-going fanbase, their key opinion-former demographic, and with the volunteer con-running community, who could help them access that fanbase. And we were making headway. Conventions in the UK had stopped showing any fansubs whatsoever (thanks in equal parts to legal assaults that the industry wouldn't dare attempt on the established US conventions, and the will of conventions to modernise their approach to operation). There was communication between the fanbase and the industry, and that communication led to a greater mutual understanding. Anime was still profitable in the UK - but it was small-scale profit, not the multi-million dollar profits the US boasts. Small enough that some bright-spark in the US office of ADV seems to have got it into their heads that by shutting down the fans' access to the industry, they have a "better shot at growing [their] business". Whether or not that's true remains to be seen. However, to imply that "if fans weren't getting their anime from illegal file sharing sites" this would not have happened is to give the corporate mentality far too much credit. Yes, they're in the business to make money, and they've made a decision which they believe will make them more - but that's it, end of story. To blame that decision on their fanbase - a fanbase they still expect to purchase their product after reading that comment - without qualifying the statement is not only shockingly naive and intellectually bankrupt, but blatantly insulting to those of us who have devoted some thousands of manhours to promote, and incalculable sums to support, the efforts of his "overseas branch". I shall continue doing as I have always done, trying to bring the fanbase in the UK closer to the industry that provides the meat and potatoes of our hobby. But statements like this, and the fact that ADV's actions have set precedent for other companies to attempt similarly isolationist schemes regarding the UK market, honestly make me wonder if the moral high ground ever really lay with myself and the rest of the DVD-buying fanbase at all. Kind regards, -Will Blewitt PS: The opinions I have posted here are my own, and in no way represent those of any event with which I may be associated. |
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Ryokosha
Posts: 107 Location: North Eastern United States |
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I will admit that the dumbest thing in Mr. Ledford's statement was to hint that the fans are at fault while at the same time asking them for money. That is sort of like saying to a girl you like "man you look old... by the way want to go out tomorrow?" Anyone that half thinks knows that is not a good way to say things.
Which makes me wonder if he said it without thinking or if that is it for the UK market for ADV in some ways which is allowing someone like FUNi to come in an get a bit of a monoply if they wanted it in the UK. |
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Effect
Posts: 31 |
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You know this is THE biggest issue I have with companies like ADV and others when they complain about fansubs. They act as if what they are putting out is a better quality product but actually many times it isn't. There is usually far more detail in the translations of shows that are fansubbed then there are in official dubbed and subbed versions of shows. I can't tell you how many times I've been annoyed if not upset after watching a show fansubbed and then buying the official version only to see the lack of effort put into various areas. Take Karas: The Prophecy and it's sequel as recent examples. Those that did the fansub translated the speech of the mukura that had the blades coming out of his neck, the locations of the areas that were shown, and many of the signs in the locations as well I believe. NONE of that was done in the official version. When the character I mentioned was talking it was almost impossible to understand unless you turned on the subtitles and even then it wasn't much help I think. You had no idea what the locations were because when the Japanese wording that appeared to label the location it was left unchanged with nothing in English as to translated it. This happens all to often. In terms of quality a lot of the times the only official copies of shows have are video quality and the dubs but that isn't huge. Even fansubs take the time to add little notes here and there when something is said that might not be understood due to culture differences be it the way someone is addressed or even a joke. I'm very picky about what I buy and have been for years now. Why should I pay them money when it's clear that those that do the fansubs are putting even more effort for no payment other then the love of the show then companies that have huge staffs and better equipment and resources? |
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Draneor
 Posts: 355 |
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I can more or less guarantee you those are not legit. While licensed R3 releases are cheaper than R2 DVDs, they do not (usually) have English subtitles. They also generally have the same episode per disc count as R2 (usually with Chinese subtitles added and sometimes a Chinese dub). I do not know Odex's prices off the top of my head, but as far as I know, they release only on VCD these days. If you were supporting the Japanese industry directly by importing R2 DVDs, it would cost between $20 to $40 an episode (and, of course, no English subtitles in almost all cases). If you think R1 anime DVDs are expensive, try buying two or three episodes for 7800 yen. Granted, some R2 DVDs like Hayate no Gotoku, have higher episode counts and a lower price (four for 5800). I do know of sites that sell "DVDs" that match your criteria and they are most certainly not licensed. You may be supporting someone, but I am fairly positive not one yen will flow back to the Japanese anime industry from those purchases. Last edited by Draneor on Thu Mar 06, 2008 9:19 am; edited 6 times in total |
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Ryokosha
Posts: 107 Location: North Eastern United States |
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Simple answer, products improve over time, when you give them a reason too, if you give people no money the product won't improve at all and might vanish.
Example is the lip flaps with the early Tenchi series. I hestiate with this example for fear of starting a larger dub versus sub argument but... There are many times when I see a character such as Tsunami moving her lips a few seconds before speaking in the English dub and a few seconds after in the Japanese original... now I know things are still not perfect that way on either the original Japanese or English dub side but they are a lot better... Why? Well people gave the industry money which was used to buy better equipment which helped to improve the industry by improving timing for recording things, and perhaps allowing them to use or purchase digital sync equpiment; or whatever they call it to match words to lip flaps... I think it is safe to assume that giving money now could lead to a larger team of translators down the line, or maybe more experienced ones, perhaps lure some from the fansubs away with the promise of more money to do that then from whatever they are doing now to earn income, and then you get a "better" product; but give no money now to the industry and you have no right to complain nor if they do change suddenly rush forward and profess love for the "improved" product. If you want something to change you have to give them a reason to change and not giving them money is not going to reach the goal I think a lot of you truly desire, whatever you define as quality subs and dubs on R1 releases. |
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Joshua-Sensei
Posts: 20 |
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I have doubts that the company I buy from would risk selling illegitimate copies of DVDS. I dunno if we can link but, it's [This URL is a known Bootlegging website], everything there seems legit and I would have a hard time, as I said, thinking they would risk the legal consequences of selling bootleg copies. |
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Ryokosha
Posts: 107 Location: North Eastern United States |
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It seems they might since the URL was automatically edited out...
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Joshua-Sensei
Posts: 20 |
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Well color me surprised. WOW 0_o, I guess I can cancel my order from them, for the Kanon, and Blue Gender series. Glad someone pointed that out. I guess if "it's too good to be true." Oh well back to buying anime from Best Buy. |
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mike.motaku
 Posts: 160 Location: Indiana |
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No surprise at all that fansubbers are, once again, merely innocent rebels fighting for positive societal change and are free from blame. Saints and martyrs, every one.
No surprise that the whole "if we keep stealing it, they'll HAVE to give into our demands" argument falls apart when the companies you're stealing from go out of business. I wonder how much money I would make selling "I killed anime" t-shirts. I see a demand growing. 
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samuelp
Industry Insider
Posts: 2243 Location: San Antonio, USA |
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It makes me wonder though...
I don't think the UK market for anime is big enough to support a local industry comparable to the US. It's better compared with the Australian or other European countries (which each have maybe 1 or 2 local companies), and even in Europe there is much more cultural precedent for selling "foreign cartoons". The contraction seen in the american market is being reflected worldwide, even in the japanese market itself. Unfortunately for the UK I think it's contracted to the point where ADV understands it's not even worthwhile to maintain an office. A decent case can be made that the contraction was inevitable based on over-expansion, but you could also argue that the industry is suffering from a switch-over in distribution methods (DVDs->downloads)... Even if all illegal downloading stopped in the UK, I don't think it would have made much of a difference in their decision, and Ledford's comments should be understood as applying to the general worldwide market and an exasserbating issue. I don't think he really believes that fansubs are the ONLY reason they are doing this (or even the main one). If he truly thinks that "if only downloads would stop then everything would be fine" then he's more of a fool than I take him for. |
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Yoda117
Posts: 406 |
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I think in my few postings on this board, I've established myself as an anti-fansub kinda guy. (and often cited the case law which supports my stance). That said, this is the probably my favorite statement in this thread. Why? Because it's true. If I were to listen to ADV's comments, Funimation would have gone out of business last summer, all the woes of the anime industry are the result of fansubs, etc. Whenever asked for the metrics to back this up, the question is ignored, swept under the rug, or treated as a personal attack (which it is not). I do not base my costing models (which greatly exceed ADV's) on "perhaps" or might"s. It based on something tangible. To do otherwise is irresponsible. Despite the rise of the Euro against the dollar, the economy isn't doing so well in most of the EU (Germany and France are great examples), the lead times are far too long, and the US branch seems all too willing to sell materials to the EU, cutting their UK branch out of the picture (and I doubt that the UK branch gets credit based on location of sale or has any other mitigating factors put into their bottom line). And let us not forget some of the lost costs ADV has put out in the past (listening to Matt Greenfield about the seven-figure industry display ADV had built was not lost on many when a number of ADV employees were laid off shortly afterwards). We want to talk about fansubs, but what about the hundreds of sites which allow access to uploaded DVDs for a monthly fee? I might have an issue with fansubs, but I think that we can all agree that taking a DVD, uploading it to my own personal site, and then allowing you access for a monthly fee is bootlegging, plain and simple. Why hasn't ADV's lawyers gone after these people? Why haven't they included the appropriate federal authorities (as many of these servers are in the US)? There's an organization with a chapter HQ in Houston, who's very mission is to serve as an outreach program between FLEO and private businesses. I know that ADV is not represented and yet the Houston branch is active in anti-bootlegging operations. I'm just saying that to tell me that fansubs are wrong (I already knew that, which is why I don't subscribe to them), yet to take no active measures or to at least provide the masses with some metrics, any quantifiable evidence supporting your claims, is in the least, disingenuous. |
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