Forum - View topicHow do you feel about internet slang and memes inserted into anime dialogue?
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Chiibi
 Posts: 4829 |
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That's fair enough...I suppose the same went for me...at first. I do in fact remember that after finding my very first fansub of Sailor Moon's third movie, "oh no...it will be in a different language" was a thought that occured to me...but that changed VERY quickly once I got a taste of what it was like. |
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Yttrbio
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Obviously, translators have to choose who they are translating for. Some may translate for people very into learning about these things, and some may translate for the broadest possible audience. But even by the latter standard, throwing in slang terms like "sus" fails. For at least 2 people in this thread, using that term is just as incomprehensible as leaving things untranslated, and if they have to look it up anyway, they may as well look up what the original is saying. There's a balance to be had, and people will come down on different sides of it. I don't buy that "make it sound like an American is saying it" is the One True Way of doing a translation, and that's not a result of not having enough experience in academics, that's an opinion about what I want from entertainment. I know I'm watching something in a foreign language. I'm not looking for an equivalent experience to watching something in mine. Does anyone have to agree with that? No. If there's no one else, then yeah, translators should ignore that opinion. But translations (at least for disposable entertainment like anime) are a consumer product, and consumers can express preferences that are at odds with what academic fields might conclude is the "correct" way to translate, and it sounds like there are at least a few people who see things in the same way as me. Personally, I'm very glad that subtitles are sometimes overly literal and awkward, because I've learned so much more about Japan and Japanese than I would have if I was watching the subtitle equivalent of dubs. Culture and perspective are expressed through language, and there's an entire layer of storytelling that is just inaccessible without understanding at least some of the language. But my life situation didn't really leave me the opportunity to formally study foreign languages, and the ability to learn stuff at the same time as I was unwinding after work was incredibly valuable and satisfying. The whole discussion has become kind of moot for me because I don't really need subtitles anymore (though I still use them because it's less mental effort). That doesn't mean I'm going to go talk to people in Japan, or write a reference book, or anything like that, but I still got something out of it that I wouldn't have if translations were done "correctly." |
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Beltane70
 Posts: 3939 |
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Sure, maybe the audience in the US is older than the intended Japanese audience, but id the characters in the show are teenagers, I have no issues with subtitles using teenage slang in those situations. |
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DuskyPredator
 Posts: 15545 Location: Brisbane, Australia |
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To go a bit into the keeping Japanese stuff in, I always liked that even the dub of Lucky Star kept a lot of things like "chan", which could sound a bit awkward in English, but at the same time it was kind of integral to the culture that the show exists in.
I am still playing both sides, because I think that slang that may have originated or becoming more popularised from the internet is not like something inherently bad not proper. My understand is that someone like Shakespeare in his day wrote things that were pretty much the level of being considered pop trash of his day, and either used or invented slang and words, many of which ended up being considered normal English. Can you imagine in a few generations when common internet slang like "lol" will be on the same level as "cool" for normal language? |
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Alan45
 Village Elder Posts: 9933 Location: Virginia |
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all-tsun-and-no-dere wrote:
No, I read your post a couple of times and if I misunderstood your position or phrased myself badly, I apologize. You were a bit dismissive of the prior mention of "chan". Based on this I assume you do not include the use of Japanese honorifics in "natural-sounding English". I personally feel that for any show set in modern Japan (and many that aren't) these can be vital to understanding relationships*. I also feel it the Japanese version is using last names the translation should also. These concepts are not hard to learn and understand. Oni should stay oni simply because these are common enough that they are easy to find out about, especially since you usually have an example right there on the screen. This is what I mean by removing all that is Japanese from an anime. Again, allowances should be made for anime that are entry level, but even there localization should ease up on long running shows. After your first hundred episodes of Naruto, you should have learned something of the underlying culture. *Nene calling Leon "sweety poo" or something similar sounded really awkward. When I found out she was calling an adult man "Leon-chan" it made a lot more sense. (Bubblegum Crisis) |
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all-tsun-and-no-dere
ANN Reviewer
Posts: 628 |
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I wasn't dismissive of -chan, I was saying it was off-topic for the thread and how to translate it, if at all, is context-dependent. Because of the differences between Japanese and English, how to translate even basic words and phrases can change based on context. But that's not what this thread is about. It did strike me while I was reading your response that you say should leave certain things untranslated and leave it up to the viewer to figure it out from context even if they're not familiar with the term, but don't think they should leave in slang because you're not familiar with it and don't feel like you should be required to figure it out from context, even when it's an appropriate translation choice. |
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Redbeard 101
Oscar the Grouch
Forums Superstar  Posts: 16961 |
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You seem to be operating under the faulty impression anime is here to teach us about Japanese culture. It's not. It's entertainment. That is what anime series are created for, entertainment purposes. If they can have the side effect of being informative, or a viewer learning something new then that's great, but that's not what their purpose is. That's not what they're designed for. That puts it on the translator to keep that immersion and entertainment property going for the secondary audience the material is being adapted for. Not to use it as some sort of teaching tool. Entertainment is also what the vast majority of people watching the series are watching it for. Not to have it be some sort of quasi Discovery channel expose' in the process. Watch an actual documentary on whatever Japanese topic you're interested in for that. Most people don't watch Vikings to learn about Nordic culture anymore then they watch an anime to learn about Japanese culture. If you want to learn those things about Japanese culture that's great, but anime is not the suited media platform to do that. That's not it's purpose or goal, and it's not the purpose or goal of a translator in the context of translating anime or manga material. It's not them trying to keep you from learning something in some nefarious plot as you make it sound. It's to keep that immersion and entertainment factor going, and be relatable for that secondary audience the material is being translated to. To take the show and have it relay that same feeling or joke from one language and culture to another, and make sense while doing so. That's what the vast majority of those watching the show are watching it for, the entertainment value and immersion into the material. Literal translations would often break that immersion and leave people scratching their heads wondering if they're missing some sort of context because that sentence, joke, etc. doesn't make sense to them in their language/culture. |
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Yttrbio
Posts: 3662 |
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What nefarious plot was I making it sound like? What are the rules on passive aggressive snark here? It's not nefarious for translators to try to "prevent me from stumbling over the stuff I'm watching in a foreign language," and I don't see how you read it that way. It's exactly the same goal you described, because it's obvious that's the goal.
Anime is made by a bunch of people who have a bunch of different goals. Some do it because they love creating stuff, some do it because they want money, some do it because they see it as a way to create stuff while not starving to death (with mixed results). But the idea that anime or a translation itself has a purpose or goal is nonsense. It's a thing. People use things for different purposes. And sometimes people express preferences for things to be better-suited to different purposes. It's not a "faulty impression" to point out that some people use the thing in a different way than you've determined its "purpose" to be. That doesn't mean translators or creators are doing it wrong by not pandering to me (in fact, I say exactly the opposite). But the question here was about how we feel about internet slang and memes inserted into anime dialogue, and then what we gain from seeing overly literal translations. It's not a "faulty impression" to answer those questions in a way that is not identical to what "the majority of people... are watching it for." |
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Alan45
Village Elder Posts: 9933 Location: Virginia |
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@all-tsun-and-no-dere
I thought I was fairly clear about slang. I'm not saying don't use it, I'm saying use with care. As Yttrbio said, we shouldn't be translating one incomprehensible word into another incomprehensible word. Some slang suddenly seems to be everywhere, even the transient stuff. You start seeing it on TV and hearing it on the streets. Usually you can't remember where you first heard it. That stuff is no problem. However, teenagers being teenagers, there is always another layer of slang that is still only in their domain. You need to be really careful with that. A good rule is that if a word or phrase doesn't come naturally you shouldn't use it. I realize we were getting a bit off topic. However, slang is only a small part of the translation discussion that it can be hard to keep it separate. "Sorry about that chief". @Redbeard 101 I'm going to have to disagree with you here. Anime can be both entertainment and educational at the same time. The US is one of the largest suppliers of entertainment in the world. If all I wanted was mindless entertainment I didn't need to go to something that required some work on my part to understand. I got into anime specifically because it was Japanese and wasn't the same shit I have seen all my life. I think you underestimate just how many get into anime simply because it does not originate here. Yes it has to retain its entertainment value but that doesn't mean you have to sand off all things that make it different from US entertainment. That is what Hollywood does when they adapt a Japanese original and why that seldom works. |
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AmpersandsUnited
Posts: 633 |
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Most modern official translations do use translator notes, honorifics, and leave commonly accepted Japanese words untranslated. Despite the protests from some people, you can tune into Crunchyroll and see translator notes on a variety of anime they stream because it's pretty unavoidable not to use them given Japan's love of puns as having to translate any signs or text on the screen. Those methods have become the standard in anime translation. All the major localization controversies have been for English dubs or video games. Anime subtitle translations are in a pretty good place, in all honestly. A few questionable translation choices and some legal issues are all that really happen. I find the topic question a bit odd because I rarely see American slang pop up in official subtitles. Sure, it's pretty cringy when it does happen, but 99% of shows don't do it and whenever the decision to do it pops up it almost always receives universal disapproval and scorn from the anime community. Overall, I think most companies do know it's unwanted by fans. |
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Redbeard 101
Oscar the Grouch
Forums Superstar Posts: 16961 |
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You're missing my point above. Yes anime CAN be both entertaining and educational at the same time. Yes many fans get into anime because it is different then Hollywood or other media. That's not the point. Doing both (entertaining and educating) is not it's goal or purpose in most anime (I'll forgo saying ALL anime as an absolute) though. It's created to entertain. In most cases it's also created to entertain a Japanese audience, not a global one. The enjoyment had globally by other groups is like the educational aspect, it's a nice secondary bonus, but not the main goal when that anime was created. Which leads to my point about expectations of translations having to both still entertain people as intended, and not break that immersion, and also act as some sort of informative media at the same time. Not only are you having to translate something into another language, and doing it so that it makes sense for a different culture, now you're (generalized sense) expecting the translator to also make the show do more then what it was even intended for. Beyond the fact that's really asking too much and unfair to demand from a translator to begin with, it's also not what the majority of people watching this product want. They want the entertainment and immersion they were expecting from that show. Yes they might be watching it because it is different, but that does not alter the fact that their expectation is to be entertained first and foremost. Once again if an anime CAN do both without losing that entertainment and immersive aspect then great. That's a nice bonus. If doing that would break that immersion and take away from the entertainment as people have to figure out what is going on, or what that sentence meant, while they're trying to just watch the show then you have a problem. That's where all these ideas of literal translations fall flat. Doing that would break that immersion time and time again. I would also argue that trying to keep that intended entertainment and immersion, via translating, is not innately sanding off all things that make it different. Translating an anime title for a different audience/culture, and making a completely unique adaptation of that material, are 2 quite different things.
So you say anime is made by a bunch of people with a bunch of different goals...but then you say that anime, or a translation of it, having a goal is nonsense. So which one is it? Do they have a bunch of different goals, or is it nonsense? You can disagree with me all you want, but as far as I am concerned anime does have a primary goal. Which is to entertain. It is entertainment media. Entertaining people is how it makes money via viewership, BR sales, manga sales, merchandise, etc. If the companies don't achieve that primary goal of entertaining then nobody is going to watch it. Nobody will buy their BR's or merch. No viewership or various sales means no money is made. No money is made and eventually that company ceases business and is gone. Sure there might be other goals. To tell a particular story. To make a fun fantasy setting. To make a vision come to life. Whatever those other goals are, if the material is not entertaining to people it's not going to be consumed. The use of, or enjoyment of, this thing in a different way than it was intended is not the problem. That's not the faulty part. That comes when the expectations change, and this alternative way becomes the expectation itself. In this case when fans demand that the anime itself become some sort of cultural rosetta stone of Japan, while still maintaining it's goal of entertaining people in some sort of cohesive manner that makes sense. It's even more faulty when many of those fans start acting belligerent and insulting towards those translators for not catering to them, and/or act with a superiority attitude as if they know better then the translators themselves. Which is what my issue is with. People coming in with the assumption anime is supposed to do more then what it's intended for in most cases. Plus the mindset that the translators are supposed to cater to that idea. Coming in with those mindsets goes well past the idea of people simply enjoying things differently. |
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Yttrbio
Posts: 3662 |
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I'm saying that the creators and consumers of anime are not in themselves anime. Anime serves a lot of different purposes for a lot of different people. So trying to assign the disparate goals of those people to anime itself, as if it has some kind of independent intention that has to be honored and preserved by translators, is nonsense. I don't know why you think I'm out there berating translators. If you have complaints about not-so-nice-people on Twitter, please don't throw them at me. I feel like you're taking the completely opposite view as you did in the Kobayashi thread, where you recognized that wanting something different from a show isn't the same as denigrating those who are fine with how it is. |
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Alan45
Village Elder Posts: 9933 Location: Virginia |
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Redbeard 101 wrote:
Which is why I say you have to know your audience. What one group finds to be entertaining another will find irritating. A translation needs to be entertaining, but it shouldn't be an insult to my intelligence. If anime is showing on broadcast or cable TV, it should probably be suitable for the general public. Even on Netflix, I suppose you could come across anime by accident. However, if you are streaming anime on Crunchyroll or Funimation you are there on purpose. Most likely you are an anime fan, doubly so if you are watching it subtitled. If you have been an anime fan for any length of time there are things that do not need either translation or explanation. Taking those things out is more likely to hurt your cash flow than help it. The people buy in that merchandise, manga and BRs are fans, not newcomers. By the way, I don't think anime needs to be informative. Its my job to notice things and inform myself. What I don't want is for the translation to be so Americanized that it makes noticing harder. For instance, I want to know when a couple goes from calling each other by last names and start using given names. If the translator insists on using first names from the beginning, American style that is lost. Not that it matters much, but you keep using the word "immersion" about watching a show. I don't think I've ever experienced that with visual media. I'm pretty much always aware I'm watching a fictional show on a flat screen. I don't hesitate to back up and watch or listen to something I think I've missed or simply want to see again. I've gotten that deep in books on occasion, but even that is rare. |
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killjoy_the
 Posts: 2468 |
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FWIW, this isn't really a problem in anime given how you can still hear what they're saying (hearing impairments or watching with no sound not counting for this, of course). I can see this being an issue in printed media (and I can even point at the official Kaguya-sama manga translation as an example, albeit not 'first name' but 'using titles for conversation instead of names'), but, for instance, in Uramichi Onii-san, from this season, hearing the names in the Japanese order and having the subs reversed (but keeping the onii-san part) only got my attention for a quarter of a second during the episode where it happened |
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Cam0
 Posts: 4917 |
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They sometimes use translator notes but it's typically for things that can be explained in one short sentence. Those fansubs sometimes had like massive text boxes explaining various stuff in detail. They explained stuff like honorifics which is not something that a modern official translation would ever do today. There was an anime from some years ago, When Supernatural Battles Became Commonplace, the crunchyroll subs just left the word "chuuni" in there untranslated and unexplained. It's not like it's a term that could easily be translated or explained, but I'm certain that specific era of fansubs would have just brute-forced it and put a massive text box to explain the term taking 3rd of the screen in the process. |
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