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EP. REVIEW: Re:ZERO -Starting Life in Another World- [2020-07-13]


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Yuvelir



Joined: 06 Jan 2015
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2021 4:58 pm Reply with quote
Key wrote:
So where exactly did this happen in the episode? I don't recall anything that could pass for that.

Right when Emilia reaches the Ryuzus. Some brief greetings are exchanged and right after a disembodied Echidna voice speaks a long line.
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OrdepNM



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2021 5:32 pm Reply with quote
Key wrote:

I always roll my eyes at scenes like this in any genre, as they're rarely done well, so I am glad that it was cut. That wouldn't have fit given the way this episode was constructed anyway; it would have distracted from the flow of the episode and either forced an earlier stopping point or something else to be cut out so that the episode ends where it should. (And where it does end feels exactly right.)


I suppose, I think most readers agree if something had to go that would be it, tough it's also an answer to the multiple people on this thread calling foul on how spoiler[Elsa's regen suddenly stopped working].

Key wrote:
So where exactly did this happen in the episode? I don't recall anything that could pass for that.


5.55 minutes in. When Emilia sees the giant crystal she asks if they're supposed to release or take her with them, at which point Echidna says "Unbelievable. You see this and that's the first thing you think of?". Its also noteworthy that Shima closes her eyes before this, while her mouth is, as usual, obscured by the poncho. Also it seems no one but us heard her, as Emilia's next line is actually confirming that they can transport the big crystal if she makes an (ice) sled, if that's what the Ryuzus want.

I'll also bring attention to the brief scene where Roswaal A Mathers visits the library. Judging by the things he's saying ("replicating a soul... Saving it in a vessel") it seems he was reading Echidna's research on her ultimate goal.

Also it's a bit upsetting that even a 400-y being like Beatrice, that was probably around before Satella gave half elves a bad name, still calls Emilia an "half devil", specially when "Satella was framed" is something of a popular theory. Tough, it's also true that Beatrice, by her own admission, is biased against Emilia and went as far as wanting to hurt her out of jealously over Puck's affections. [/spoiler]
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Zhou-BR



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2021 7:24 pm Reply with quote
pip25 wrote:
As great as the previous one was, this episode was immensely frustrating. All that talk and talk and talk and talk... and in the end, the one really interesting development here, namely what the Ryuzu clones were doing and why, remained incredibly opaque and incomprehensible.
I did not really care about the scenes with Beatrice. I like her character, but the dialog was stretched so long and contained so little of actual substance, namely the parts you could not see from about twenty miles away, I couldn't help but groan. I'm not sure if this came off better in the novel, but here, it just felt like the adaptation became way too enamored with its own lines (not for the first time, I might add).
It is my strong belief that cuts should have been made here; this development did NOT require a 30 minute episode, without an OP and ED to boot.


This is how I've been feeling about the entire back half of season 2. It's like the show's director and writers are afraid of displeasing the light novels' fans, so they feel obligated to fill as much of each episode's already overlong running time as possible with Tappei Nagatsuki's self-indulgent dialogue.
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Iron Maw



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2021 8:32 pm Reply with quote
The funny about the complaints episodes like Choose Me noted being long-winded repeteative is that can label the exact samething From Zero which poplar among the fandom for the very. In fact you had detractors saying the something & Choose Me's convo emotional climax was far shorter than that!

It should be plain obvious by now that Re:Zero at heart is not an action series even if may occasion have them. It is highly character driven work hat places importance character dynamics, & thought process of the cast therein. Most people around Subaru have just much deep-rooted problem as he does like & took them several episode to even start to begin to heal. The stubbornness, repeated rejection, the seemly contradictory behaviors each characters exhibit due source of their internal wounds & demons that is entirely authentic to real world human condition that few LN to touch. That is usually because everything often done for sake of the protagonist's convenience,other people supposed to just get over their own central conflicts so they can win rather than having the developments happen in a organic manner that doesn't short-change character whom is at the center of conflict. I love that story respects everyone/s feelings in just as much as it does Subaru & that one of the things that drew the fandom to the series. .

Even the fight between Garf & Elsa was a drawn out affair with pathos & dialogue, only people just hitting each other throughout it, that's all.

If getting to point A to B is what you care about rather than the "how" then your missing point of S2 and S1 for that matter. As I said before that the endgame is really the side dish to the process of it all. If the characters broke out of their shells so easily it wouldn't be nearly as strong to me, it would be like if Subaru just given into Rem words back in ep 18 without his repeated resistance, trivializing everything he went through & his own pain. I actually want Subaru, Emilia, Betty & Garf to succeed because I am sympathetic to their pilots personally, but I don't want Subaru to win them over easily to do it. He's not some messiah, he's just normal well meaning highschool who is in over his head, he had to learn to grow up & stop running from his problems the hard way. That something the rest of cast relate to in their own way.

Maybe its just my mindset but it all just work very well for me when I read & seeing it all animated made me love it more. If what call self-indulgent then I happy that the story is that way. There are plenty of show with less talking you can watch if you want but at this point this all meticulous done and entirely intentional on the part of White Fox & Tappei. Neither are perfect & White Fox has change things to fit the story in the time-slot but they are good what they do and I'm happy most people with it at least. Because this a very internal arc and it is tough to animate for that reason.

Zhou-BR wrote:
pip25 wrote:
As great as the previous one was, this episode was immensely frustrating. All that talk and talk and talk and talk... and in the end, the one really interesting development here, namely what the Ryuzu clones were doing and why, remained incredibly opaque and incomprehensible.
I did not really care about the scenes with Beatrice. I like her character, but the dialog was stretched so long and contained so little of actual substance, namely the parts you could not see from about twenty miles away, I couldn't help but groan. I'm not sure if this came off better in the novel, but here, it just felt like the adaptation became way too enamored with its own lines (not for the first time, I might add).
It is my strong belief that cuts should have been made here; this development did NOT require a 30 minute episode, without an OP and ED to boot.


This is how I've been feeling about the entire back half of season 2. It's like the show's director and writers are afraid of displeasing the light novels' fans, so they feel obligated to fill as much of each episode's already overlong running time as possible with Tappei Nagatsuki's self-indulgent dialogue.


As I noted above tions of anime only like season 2 & don't have an issue with the length of dialogue. So it has nothing to do with fear of anything it is also an insult to the staff who pour effect into animating the show for 29 mins. Whether you like or not Re;Zero clearly has passion WF are just big of fans of work as source readers are.
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Key
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2021 8:44 pm Reply with quote
Iron Maw wrote:
If getting to point A to B is what you care about rather than the "how" then your missing point of S2 and S1 for that matter.

Oh, I fully understand that. I also fully understand that this is not an action series, and I have never expected it to be that; remember, I gave this series mostly-glowing episode reviews during S1 and named it my #1 series for 2016, so I do get what the series focuses on and what it's doing.

That does not, however, excuse the way some of these dialog exchanges can drag - again, even understanding that patiently breaking through resistance is the point. (And yes, even "From Zero" had a little bit of that flaw, but the rest was executed well-enough - and it hadn't been done umpteen times up to that point - that it could be overlooked.) The most recent game - which I'm about a quarter of the way through right now - is far more obnoxious on this.

OrdepNM wrote:
Key wrote:
So where exactly did this happen in the episode? I don't recall anything that could pass for that.


5.55 minutes in. When Emilia sees the giant crystal she asks if they're supposed to release or take her with them, at which point Echidna says "Unbelievable. You see this and that's the first thing you think of?". Its also noteworthy that Shima closes her eyes before this, while her mouth is, as usual, obscured by the poncho. Also it seems no one but us heard her, as Emilia's next line is actually confirming that they can transport the big crystal if she makes an (ice) sled, if that's what the Ryuzus want.

Oh, I know what you're talking about now. I remember that line, but both times I watched that scene, I though it was something one of the Ryuzus said. In retrospect, that definitely sounds more like something Echidna would say.
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Iron Maw



Joined: 29 May 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2021 9:02 pm Reply with quote
Key wrote:

Oh, I fully understand that. I also fully understand that this is not an action series, and I have never expected it to be that; remember, I gave this series mostly-glowing episode reviews during S1 and named it my #1 series for 2016, so I do get what the series focuses on and what it's doing.

That does not, however, excuse the way some of these dialog exchanges can drag - again, even understanding that patiently breaking through resistance is the point. (And yes, even "From Zero" had a little bit of that flaw, but the rest was executed well-enough - and it hadn't been done umpteen times up to that point - that it could be overlooked.) The most recent game - which I'm about a quarter of the way through right now - is far more obnoxious on this.


I mean speaking of as someone who read the WN and found portions of it to drag (but were thankfully restructured by the LN) I didn't feel like this at all here I guess. I felt it need to be done this way because Betty's problems are not trivial. As she said to Subaru she had already gone through things like this before, so of course gonna beyond difficult for him to overcome that barrier. To be frank Subaru realizes he can't solve any of her long-standing issues, he only make them easier to bear, but he couldn't get to that point without the back & back forth between them. Subaru had no silver bullet to convince her to live, he had wear her down with sincerity the same way he did with Emilia and Garf. Its the very same trait that indirectly saved Otto and brought him to his side.

Choose Me does touch upon similar vibes to From Zero but character & problem in are different require and a different approach. Subaru is not Rem, he's not nearly as eloquent as her nor is he written to be. However as rough & direct as they are but his words as just as sincere. Maybe that's your problem there cause From Zero is seriously much more long winded then this. They adapted an entire chapter nearly word for word. In S2 only ep 29 has the claim to fame. Choose Me several eps have far more cuts to their chapters so it can't hardly be an issue of too much dialogue.

EDIT: Also remember some complaints about ep 11's end portion that involved Subaru talking a lot there
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Yuvelir



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2021 10:23 pm Reply with quote
The problem with this episode is that it was basically watching Subaru bang his head against a door until it opened - almost literally. A stubborn character (which is the kind of character you need to be very careful about when writing it) might need to be met with insistence, but this was not just insistence, it was repetition.
It wasn't interesting or moving, it was annoying. It needed to chip away at Beako's shell, not the audience.

And in more or a personal level opinion, the connection that Subaru and Betty gain feels kind of cheap when this is like the third girl he promises to spend the rest of his days with. There's only so much of you, man, and that "much" is not a lot and constantly spread thin.
Now I'm looking at Petra with dread.
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Juno016



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2021 12:00 am Reply with quote
It should be noted that in the light novel, Subaru starts suspecting that Beatrice is trying to use the doors to lead him out of the burning mansion, so the repetition is part of her plan. The problem is, he keeps going back anyway. It's a battle of stubbornness and in the end, Subaru wins. I kinda liked that about the novel scene.

I didn't struggle with this episode at all. I cried. You guys are crazy. =P
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Iron Maw



Joined: 29 May 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2021 1:02 am Reply with quote
Yuvelir wrote:
The problem with this episode is that it was basically watching Subaru bang his head against a door until it opened - almost literally. A stubborn character (which is the kind of character you need to be very careful about when writing it) might need to be met with insistence, but this was not just insistence, it was repetition.
It wasn't interesting or moving, it was annoying. It needed to chip away at Beako's shell, not the audience.

And in more or a personal level opinion, the connection that Subaru and Betty gain feels kind of cheap when this is like the third girl he promises to spend the rest of his days with. There's only so much of you, man, and that "much" is not a lot and constantly spread thin.
Now I'm looking at Petra with dread.


We are talking about a suicidal girl who is bound to a meaningless 400 year old promise who in truth doesn't actually want kill herself but is making excuses to do so because she is afraid of connecting yo others after she lost best friend & mother. She is a mess and stubborn.

Like If there someone being unreasonable here its not Subaru. Beatrice is the same as Roswaal, a person warped by the gospel and trapped in the past. She thinks nobody needs her that's why Subaru's approached at end in a way that worked after she willing to listen and hear him out one final time. He appealed to her kind nature she always tried to hide (thanks literally every loop from S1 till now) assuaged her fears in the only way he could. He didn't let her indulge in herself self fatalism nor did not he sugarcoat her fears, only offered himself to & at least give Beatrice reasons to live for herself & with him even if that time is ephemeral. Subaru's willing to put himself in harms way for that but he does not plan to die tragically ad leave her but endeavor make her happy in place of her long lost best friend That sweet and entirely caring not bullish or repetitive imo. .

Like this line says it all:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EwssE8CUYAItD4I?format=jpg&name=large

Frankly found nothing Subaru said to be repetitive if I'm being honest, nor did I know who watched it did.

As for your 2nd point, I don't agree either because 1) that implies he made same type of promise with Emilia, 2) that Subaru & Beatrice had some kind of romantic relationship and her come around was based on that, 3) He can't make multiple promises with people even they are fundamentally different.

BTW, forming a contract with a spirit is effectively making them a part of your family as in that of spouses or siblings. Subaru & Beatrice are more like that of brother & sister.

Juno016 wrote:
It should be noted that in the light novel, Subaru starts suspecting that Beatrice is trying to use the doors to lead him out of the burning mansion, so the repetition is part of her plan. The problem is, he keeps going back anyway. It's a battle of stubbornness and in the end, Subaru wins. I kinda liked that about the novel scene.

I didn't struggle with this episode at all. I cried. You guys are crazy. =P


Honestly same, I know a lot of people who at least touched by it. Guess if you really disliked Beatrice or didn't care for Subaru I can see why one only look negatively at what they did. Personally I thought Subaru persistence vs Beatrice stubbornness was the part if the point add a lot when he finally got through to her.


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NeedMoreCats
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2021 1:49 am Reply with quote
Juno016 wrote:
I didn't struggle with this episode at all. I cried. You guys are crazy. =P

You and me, both, man. I’m with you! Very Happy
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Ohm_0_



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2021 5:33 am Reply with quote
blameitonStarBlazers wrote:
Juno016 wrote:
I didn't struggle with this episode at all. I cried. You guys are crazy. =P

You and me, both, man. I’m with you! Very Happy


I didn't cry but my heart was cracking throughout the entire argument. Subaru's final quote about Beatrice always waiting at the door was a great end note for the argument. I honestly love the repetition. It honestly reminds me of emotional arguments that I have had with others. Every time me and the other person make a point, we keep repeating said point despite it already being discredited earlier. I don't know. It just feels slightly more realistic. It's kinda why I love the argument between Subaru and Emilia.
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OrdepNM



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2021 6:18 am Reply with quote
Yuvelir wrote:
And in more or a personal level opinion, the connection that Subaru and Betty gain feels kind of cheap when this is like the third girl he promises to spend the rest of his days with. There's only so much of you, man, and that "much" is not a lot and constantly spread thin.
Now I'm looking at Petra with dread.


I'll give you he's kinda stringing Rem along, not necessarily because From Zero should have ended with them going their separate ways, they're still bound to the same house and their loved ones are being targeted by the same threat, but when he tells one of his parents during the trial "I'm not letting anyone have her" like dude, let her find happiness elsewhere.

Betty is different tough. She actually offered to come with him early in the season if he became "Betty's all", but he shut that one down. What he's asking if to trust him that he can find meaning to her otherwise meaningless existence. Sure, his pleas end up focusing on what he can do for her, because ultimately she's too focused on the "that person" and needs someone to take its place, but really he isn't offering anything she didn't already have for at least a month and half now, a family and friends to spend a rich and fulfilling life with.

Tappei wrote several short stories taking place in the month long time skip between arc 2 and 3 (Like "Some like it cold" and "Alcohol panic" aka Memory Snow) and while for the most part these are just SOL asides, one of the things the author wanted to show is how Subaru always goes out of his way to try to include Betty into all the shennenigans the Mathers household gets into, despite her pushback. All Subaru is really asking here is for Betty to stop pushing back, admit she wants to be part of the gang and let him ease her into it. That's why he's been asking Petra to play with Beatrice when she comes around and thinks her and the Ryuzu clones need to meet.

I've heard it said that it's less that Subaru got a 400 y-o loli to his harem and more that he and the Emilia Faction got a granny, and I kinda agree with this way to put it.

(PS: My Fair Bad Lady OVA pls, make it happen Kadokawa/Media Factory/WhiteFox)
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Yuvelir



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2021 6:56 am Reply with quote
Yeah, I understand what Subaru has been doing with Beako all along, and it's nice, it's perfect! It's just the way he has worded his speech in a bit more... trite and not quite where it should. But by now I guess that's just Subaru, he confidently fucks up all of his speeches.

But in the end it's mostly a small pet peeve, the bulk of my complaints about this episode lay with the pacing and script.
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NeverConvex
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2021 7:09 am Reply with quote
I'm a bit all over the place with this episode/season. I think the season has waxed on overly long with not very compelling monologues/dialogues, but didn't feel that way about the latest episode. I did think Subaru's speech to Beatrice felt a bit trite and unpersuasive, though, and didn't really convey what he actually needed it to convey. I also don't feel especially attached to Beatrice as a character, so didn't find myself deeply moved when she finally agreed to go with him, but at the same time thought him stubbornly opening Beatrice's doors and her letting him back in, eventually, each time was a nice artistic choice, even if as a scene it didn't affect me very much.

I also think this season has tried to wrap up too many character arcs at once. Effectively telling each of Garf, Ram, Roswaal, Beatrice, the bowel lady, and knowledge-lady, zombie-guy, and Emilia's backstories, and tying up the first five neatly and evocatively, is a bit much to ask of one season. EDIT: Though, to be fair, this is more than the number of character arcs TPN recently 'wrapped up', and Re;Zero comes out from that comparison looking near-perfect, for all that I have many small complaints about this season of it..


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Iron Maw



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2021 7:25 am Reply with quote
Yuvelir wrote:
Yeah, I understand what Subaru has been doing with Beako all along, and it's nice, it's perfect! It's just the way he has worded his speech in a bit more... trite and not quite where it should. But by now I guess that's just Subaru, he confidently fucks up all of his speeches.

But in the end it's mostly a small pet peeve, the bulk of my complaints about this episode lay with the pacing and script.


Well this all subjective anyway. I personally didn't have problem either of those things. The point of this penultimate episode after all is tie up the loose ends from the last week & prep for the last obstacle in this conflict while showing how everyone's growth have changed what was supposed to be a tragic outcome. Even the Arlam villagers & mixed-blood demi-humans are doing their part to move on and secure the future.

I don't see how it could be setup any better without ruining the moment Subaru & Betty make their triumphant entrance as newly made Spirit Arts Mage and Spirit pair after all the trials & tribulations taken to get to this point. Betty is one of principal characters of this story with a weighty internal conflict of her own. How Subaru & she resolve that conflict is entirely true to their characters. Its a case that even criticize it wouldn't, change because this deliberately point of their dynamic & characterization. Changing that would just mean making them different people all together none actions they took reconcile was random.

Anyway every single conflict that was introduced in this arc plus ones from earlier like Betty's has reached point a where it can naturally conclude. Its a testament how powerful Subaru & co inner demons were and how difficult this situtaion was to overcome with them going on. Everything had to go right to achieve Subaru's ideal ending where even Roswaal, a person he strong dislikes can survive despite what he has done up to this point. It feel like an earned victory because of struggles it took get here and several characters lives have been completely changed in that process. Almost every character feels like they are ready to forward with their lives.

BTW as another nod to From Zero Subaru presents his argument in the same he did to Rem with his fantastic thematic framing. Its very much him pleading to Beatrice to save herself & him through that.

https://twitter.com/ChikenPatrasche/status/1372210352453083140
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