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Last edited by James S. on Tue Jan 19, 2021 7:03 pm; edited 2 times in total

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No good is gonna come from trying to zoom out far enough that we pretend to be talking about something like being left-handed. He did sex pest things and that's what people are talking about. This kind of playing semantics to excuse it isn't even remotely good faith.

I'm not pretending anything, I'm just pointing out that what was said is not wrong. On the point of sex pest things, I think that there's a general overreaction going on. Rudeus has done nothing outside of stealing panties and peeking under skirts. While, yes it's creepy and expressing his perversion like that is something that will have to eventually stop as he grows up in his new life, the reactions from the various posts I've read make it seem like he's going to become a rapist and would be one if he wasn't five and I find that very wrong.

EDIT: Ah, that was the part I was forgetting. I know how he ends up so that's working against me in trying to explain him. Yeah, that would make it seem like he would become a lot worse despite all the evidence that he does get better.

If we can't have a discussion in this forum without excusing pedophilia with simply "perversion", then we're gonna have a hell of problem. Rudy, in the context of the anime, is a pedophile and originally, a voyeur. This was softened from the web novel to the light novel and again to the anime where the changes went from setting up hidden cameras in the bathroom to catch his cousin changing to viewing pedophilia content during his parents funeral to obscuring what was on screen in the anime. The anime gave the character some plausible deniability; that he may have just been viewing run-of-the-mill porn and that's the main reason I was more hands off.

There's a reason no one is saying that part out loud and I assume it's because admitting it deflates all of the attempts at semantic arguments here. That part of Rudy transfers over when he comments on whether a prepubescent girl has her pubic hair yet, classifies her as a 'loli' and states that means she's perfect for him.

While the author may have written a backstory of abuse and bullying to explain Rudy's social difficulties, those aren't a catch-all. Plenty of people experience all kinds of trauma as children and into adulthood and don't abuse anyone.

Frankly, I'll take responsibility for not having the full context of the character originally, but I think the discussion for why Rudy is reprehensible to people is pretty clear and why no matter how his 'antics' are framed, it'll be a hard no for some viewers. Time to move on.

Shay Guy wrote:

I think there's a difference between a story about redemption and growth and a story about someone's faults being rendered irrelevant. From what I read of Mushoku Tensei years ago, it feels more to me like the latter.

If the story looks like it's doing that as it progresses then I'll certainly address it. Too early to tell based on anime content only so far.

Abraham Omosun wrote:

If the point of that scene was to show that Roxy is not sexually immature/innocent, what was the point of Rudy commenting "I'm happy I saw that" with a smiley face?

Oh, I don't doubt that the scene was probably just for titillation, but just figured I'd offer a thought as to how it could be more than that. As for Rudy's comment, I think it'd be odd if he didn't have a response to suddenly coming upon that scene and that fits the character

Last edited by Charou on Tue Jan 19, 2021 11:10 pm; edited 1 time in total

edit: original post was asking if this moderator contribution was a soft lock, but since people continued below, so shall I. Last post here, for reasons given below.

I appreciate the larger context Lynzee, but as an anime-only, I have to admit you've just sort of ruined it for me, and undermined the show's possible attempt at course-correcting a deeply problematic (if not outright unacceptable) angle to a protagonist in a show otherwise worth making and watching. Like or not, I'm going to see it week to week now with the knowledge in the back of my mind that Rudy wasn't/isn't just a deviant/outcast/hiki/Akiba otaku, but a full-blown criminal. That this was, absent the bullying, 'who he was no matter not', if we assume that such illegal perversions (and they are both) are more nature and less nurture. Either way, I'm genuinely sad now -- a lot of what I said earlier has been cast in a different light, and positions me as sympathetic to something I absolutely do not.

We'll continue to watch the show as anime-only, and definitely won't be telling my partner (F, adult, lolita/weeb/fellow Sugita uberfan) that Rudy's origins in the source material are explicitly that of a paedophile. If the show goes there, we'll drop it like a steaming pile of hot potatoes. Absolutely. Until then, I think it's only fair to let the show be its own thing, and focus on what works, on what's worth telling and showing.

We dropped 'I'd do anything for my daughter' once we learned how the story ended in the source material because, yeah, that's gross, and just knowing that tainted our viewing experience despite there being very little of that eventuality telegraphed in the show itself. For the record, that show and 'Mom online' made us both far more uncomfortable than MT does, and were hard drops within a few episodes. They minimised through comedy and cuteness something I consider equally egregious: parent-child relationship incest. I know, I know -- this seems like whataboutism, but no. I condemn them both. Equally. And, whether we like it or not, this little hobby of ours, these Asian cartoons and comics, still have a deeply, deeply troubled image regarding their facile, deceptively 'funny' engagement with both.

For now, at least, MT the show isn't in the least bit interested in being complicit with its grotesquery. That has to suffice, else we might as well just all stop watching now, because that is the line that should not be crossed. That's when it goes from being about something, from using that something as a springboard to fruitful exploration, to outright promoting it. And as I said, should MT the show do that, I will be gutted...but not entirely surprised.

I'll resist the urge to read this thread from now on though, just in case there are more instances of original material discussion imposing upon an anime-only experience.

On the topic of Rudeus becoming a better person, I feel like there's some miscommunication here, though that's also on me for forgetting that not everyone has read the novels.

Rudeus in his past life was a shut-in, a slob, didn't properly appreciate other people, avoided being responsible for his actions, and watched what constitutes as child pronography. These are all things that can be improved upon now that he is reincarnated, and some of that shows in just the second episode.

However, aside from the paedophilia for obvious reasons, curbing Rudeus' perversion is irrelevant to him becoming a better person. It will be curbed as a result of becoming a better person, but getting rid of it will not instantly make him a better person. I'm bringing this up since, while there is a reasonable worry thanks to what Rudeus did before dying, there seems to be some strange notion that after living in his new world for 5 years he should automatically have successfully changed into a respectful adult (mentally) and show no perverted tendencies of any kind. For a show about the MC developing as a person to show it happen either offscreen or over the course of one episode means that it never was about the MC developing as a person.

For Rudeus to be a better person compared to his previous life, he has to correct all that I listed previously. That means, actively leaving the house to not be a shut-in again, not being a slob, learning to appreciate the people around him (as of episode 2 that's only Roxy), becoming responsible for his actions, and of course not being a paedophile in this life. All those goals are good and you can see the work Rudeus has started putting towards them. However, no work has been done for the last one, or rather, it's difficult for that to be worked on while Rudeus is a child. The problem besides the obvious is that thanks to reincarnation, Rudeus will be growing up alongside anyone that he would currently consider a "loli" (spoiler[aside Roxy as they are the same age if you include his age when he died]).

I think that's something that's ignored a lot in terms of modern reincarnation anime: Either you end up with a main character that has no interest in the opposite sex due to thinking that everyone is younger than them, or the squicky implication that the character appears to be preying on those that are younger than them despite physically being the same age. This aspect is often glossed over in other shows but thanks to how Mushoku Tensei is written, you'll notice it a lot more than usual since Rudeus' mental state is still a 30-year old virgin. (This is a warning about future episodes.)

What that results in is that what would be considered paedophilic tendencies in his past life are now in an awkward limbo as he is now physically a child in his second life while mentally an adult. While that doesn't at all excuse what he did before he died, Rudeus is now in a state that he could potentially become romantically involved with someone who's 30 years younger mentally, and in order for him to no longer be considered a paedophile while counting his mental age, he would have to only go for those that are physically decades older than himself the moment he could (and if seeing an adult woman with a male that's physically a child or teenager doesn't make you uncomfortable then that's a double standard and hypocrisy).

Anyway my point is Rudeus becoming a better person does not mean he will no longer be a pervert and Rudeus devolving into a typical anime pervert does not mean he won't become a better person. There's only two episodes currently out, out of the 11 that will air during the Winter 2021 season, and if you hate Rudeus after two episodes you will still hate him for several more episodes.

I'm extremely uncomfortable with the number of people in this thread who seem to think actions like voyeurism and panty theft are harmless mischief, when they are in fact huge violations that make women feel unsafe.

all-tsun-and-no-dere wrote:

I'm extremely uncomfortable with the number of people in this thread who seem to think actions like voyeurism and panty theft are harmless mischief, when they are in fact huge violations that make women feel unsafe.

Because context matters, and it's treated as more of an annoyance than anything within the show, not a serious issue. It's important to react to these things properly. I assume that nearly everyone watching this show, much like with any anime, knows that these actions would not be appropriate in real life but it's also important to react accordingly to how the show presents the actions taking place. In this case, I doubt any of the adults involved care that much about the actions of a little kid.

It's also important that we understand the intentions of the character performing the actions in question, in this case, I have no reason to believe that Rudy would ever take things farther than he currently is, which so far has just been stealing underwear for fun or inappropriate comments that he keeps to himself.

If that changes I will act accordingly but not before.

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Because context matters, and it's treated as more of an annoyance than anything within the show, not a serious issue.

Okay, but...that's worse. You do get how that's worse, right?

From your perspective, yes, and that's because you know all the details. However, considering you know all the details, you should also know that from the perspective of everyone else that Rudeus lives with, he is just a child. Smarter than normal but a child that literally just turned 5, so they see it as harmless. Sure, if you have a child that's doing stuff like that before they turn 5, you'll teach them that it's not appropriate, but you won't see it as a problem unless a.) You somehow know your child is a reincarnator with knowledge of their past life or b.) The child continues to do it up to an age where it can no longer be considered harmless and you have to again educate them on how to behave in society where they could get arrested or killed if they continue that type of behavior.

Considering that "a" is impossible outside of fiction (as far as anyone knows) according to the common sense of the majority of worlds where protagonists reincarnate (and our reality I would hope), there would logically not be a single reason to suspect that your child is actually a 30-year-old man reborn. This is especially so for Mushoku Tensei due to a certain plot point that will be revealed this season.

Charou wrote:

I have a few things to say about this in terms of objectionable/problematic source material being course-corrected by adaptations/remakes, but is 'time to move on' a soft lock on the conversation? I'd like to know before proceeding because obviously I don't want to run afoul of your moderation processes. I simply can't tell by this response if you're contributing to the conversation or cutting it off. Apologies for the confusion.

I meant it as a redirect to discuss another facet of the show because the conversation keeps devolving into a moral argument of "these actions aren't ok/not that bad/actually normal".

@James S.

As was just said “how do you not get that this is worse.” You’re arguing that because he’s successfully deceiving them that it’s ok. That is a horrific view of what makes things acceptable.

James S. wrote:

From your perspective, yes, and that's because you know all the details. However, considering you know all the details, you should also know that from the perspective of everyone else that Rudeus lives with, he is just a child.

That is a valid point, but here's another: they're not the ones the show is meant for. What I mean is while they, as in the other characters of this show, do not know all the details the viewer does. We established that. Well the show is made for us, the viewer. Consider it a sort of 4th wall thing I suppose for lack of a better term. The fact is that while within the story the other characters are ignorant of the information we the viewer are not. We the viewer are who they show is created for. To entertain us. Which means in terms of context, as you want to point out, our knowledge of all of the circumstances and intentions does matter as we know the truth. If we were all ignorant of that context it would be different, but we're not. We do know the details and the "hidden" information so to speak. The characters in the show might not think it's a big deal (being ignorant of that information) but that does not mean we should think the same as we do know the truth.

So yes, context does matter as you said. And in this context we know the truth. We know the details. We know he is disgusting. So why should people ignore that and not find the material in poor taste? If this was all real life it would be like knowing why your neighbor's kid is spying on the girl down the street and saying nothing. Best analogy I can think of at midnight and being half tired. We do know the truth, and ignoring that in light of his actions is worse than not knowing and thinking it's just a harmless prank.

And before anyone goes down the "it's just fiction" route, yes it is, but it's been made with the goal of promoting certain material in a certain light. That material being questionable and promoted in a manner as to suggest it's funny and not a big deal. And for some it probably isn't, and that's fine. It's also fine though for others to disagree and find it problematic. If the reviewer and others feel that way that does not mean you can't enjoy your show. Go right ahead, nobody is stopping you. The reviewer and other posters have their opinions, you have yours. I say that in a generalized sense, not a "you" specifically to anyone.

pikabot wrote:

Okay, but...that's worse. You do get how that's worse, right?

i_understood_that_reference.gif

I keep thinking of the "Forgivies" in BoJack Horseman season 5, and the commentary on just how eager so much of society is to absolve men who do crappy things, especially to girls and women. And how it leads to a cycle of those men doing the same things over and over, because they have no reason to expect they'll ever be held accountable for them.

Some people are directly harmed by that cycle; others have friends and loved ones who are directly harmed; and for others still it's something that happens off in the distance. I think it's to be expected that the last group, even if they recognize intellectually that their fave is problematic, might not be as intensely turned off by fiction that seems designed to participate in that cycle -- where actions that happen often in the real world, and are deeply harmful when they do, are presented as excusable, comical, or otherwise inconsequential; whatever makes the harm feel less real. (To reference BoJack Horseman again, episode 6x08 had no appearance or even explicit mention of the five main characters; following an episode where BoJack seemed to finally be getting his act together, it focused entirely on the many women who'd paid the price for BoJack's actions, specifically to make us less comfortable with those actions.)

But really, good fiction is built around empathy, and an honest understanding of human nature. The latter means you have to recognize that people don't abandon toxic behavior patterns just because they get a big break; the former means you have to understand the effects of those behavior patterns on others, in both reality and fiction.

Okay, let's take stock here. In an extremely short summary brought out because I've been awake too long, one poster is uncomfortable about how nonchalant a lot of other posters are about Rudeus stealing panties and peeking under skirts. Another explains that context is a thing and that depending on how the show treats the scene is also how the scene should be reacted to. Yet another brings up that the implications to that are terrible while I reply that they are terrible because we know the context but don't matter to the people in the show who know nothing, and then the replies to me are about how I'm apparently saying that successfully deceiving them makes it okay?

That's everything right? Okay. First things first, in entirely [lie]honest[/lie] fashion, [sarcasm]"Of course it's obviously okay as long as you don't get caught. Just look at what Trump has done the past four years."[/sarcasm]

I believe that I mentioned a bit of what I think about the topic here:

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...or b.) The child continues to do it up to an age where it can no longer be considered harmless and you have to again educate them on how to behave in society where they could get arrested or killed if they continue that type of behavior.

Sure it's probably not the best description, but what's being done is morally reprehensible and everyone understands that a 30-year-old man would get arrested if they did it in real life. Everyone should also understand that a 5-year-old child would at worst get a spanking for doing so. End result, Rudeus Greyrat is a disgusting piece of shit in the beginning of the story. I'm pretty sure I've said something along those lines in several posts of this thread now. I'm pretty sure everyone here understands that and knows his behavior is not appropriate. Nobody is saying otherwise.

What is being said, is that Rudeus' current perverted antics, which include stealing one pair of panties, wearing ones that are in the laundry, peeping under skirts, and intending on walking in on his adult parents getting it on to see their embarrassment, are all on the lower end of perverted antics, are displayed in the show as not a big deal as the victims either don't care or calmly rebuke Rudeus, unless they're Lilia who tries to avoid the creepy baby, and are entirely creepy when you remember that there's a 30-year-old mind doing it.

And that's it. Rudeus gets away with it because nobody expects their baby to be a reincarnator while the viewer is left feeling disgust for his actions. Next scene. Am I ignoring what's happening? No, I'm acknowledging that it happened, filed it away as character portrayal, and moved on to the rest of the show where a decent chunk of character development happened. I'm not sure about some of the other posters here, but I was raised with the knowledge that fiction and reality are two separate things and should be treated as such. Thus I treat anime as such. It's a staple in anime to have that one guy performing perverted acts whether it's for humor, horror, or anything in between, and it's usually made obvious whether a big deal should be made about it, regardless of the viewers thoughts on it. So I go along with how the show portrays it, which in turn allows me to enjoy the rest of the show.

If this comes off as nonchalant and uncaring I apologize, but this is my honest and sleep deprived opinion. I'm just tired of the fact that this conversation keeps happening. Yes it's wrong, yes it happened, yes Rudeus is disgusting and everyone should be put off by his actions and never watch this, can we get on now? I understand why you are outraged by Rudy's actions, and I understand that the show makes less of a deal of it than you do. I understand that this happening in real life is terrible from personal experience, and I understand that this is a fictional tale designed to make you feel some type of way, of which you are clearly feeling in excess, and that regardless of how it made you feel, it's still not that important in the grand scheme of the episode. I also understand that the next episode will come and probably make a lot of you drop the series, and I understand that you'll still post here until the series ends just because the show outrages you. Or I do. Maybe. I'll deal with the fallout of this post today after I wake up again.

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