Forum - View topicNEWS: Tokyo Anime Center's Kubo Offers Proposal on Fansubs
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Goodpenguin
Posts: 457 Location: Hunt Valley, MD |
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sailor_titan:
I'm not quite sure what this is encompassing. What do you include as a 'geek' market-sci-fi/fantasy book audience, sci-fi channel audience, comic fans, video game fans etc.? Are you focusing on the 13-18 demographic that is most analogous to anime? What's 'inflated' about the market? What leads you to conclude it's 'badly run'? I'm not agreeing/disagreeing with what you've said, it's just as is you've got a very broad 'geek' genre that needs some kind of boundary/defining, and you've made some pretty widely encompassing statement about the market being badly run. You'll have to hone down your examples a few more degrees before one can realistically argue about them with any meaning. britannicamoore
While this is not meant in any type of combative fashion, and being entirely respectful of your opinions, I do have to agree with Moomintroll as to you seemingly packaging up rather dubious speculation and a heap of pre-conceived bias and calling it 'research'. (By the by, what do CNN, NPR, MSNBC have to do with fansub research? I work in political research for a living and monitor those sources near daily, I don't think anime exactly headlines any of those. I think Moomintroll was asking your sources/methods for your fansub research, not your daily news outlets.) Just on a quick take, a fair over-view centered around fansubs impact would start with something like: -Historical sales trend of anime through at least early 80's to present. *Correlated for market realties/demographics of the VHS market -Vectoring all domestic DVD sales as to variances in the anime-specific DVD market through the same time-period. -Demographics/market tastes of 'early' adapters, as compared to the demographics tastes of the modern fan. (You had earlier talked about 'veteran' fans as people who have been in the hobby for 5 years. 2003 isn't a year I'd associate meaningfully with any-pre fansub patterns, you would want to be looking at folks from the mid 90's.) *Correlating age, income available, and entertainment choices/popular hobbies between generations of fans. -Exploring time-line of fansubs, there technical evolution, pervasiveness in the overall sub-culture, ease of access, etc. -Changes in the content/style of anime itself, as documented in specific time-frames. ...And so on (You may think not everything directly correlates to fansubs, but one has to understand buying motive and market realities for the entire consumer segment before picking out what has changed in relation to fansubs only). And again, while I respect your personal opinion on fansubs, it seems a lot of what you wrote is a repeat of personal views you expressed earlier on the board combined with some observations from fansub sites (which may be good for empirical observation but are going to be highly biased for objective editorial content), and then being called research. Also of course, you may be doing a much, much less formal project and feel what I've suggested is overkill, but in that case perhaps a little bit of a more conversational tone and a little less of telling people 'Learn to research some yourself. Try not be such a sheep' will keep the hackles down. 
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sailor_titan
 Posts: 51 Location: Vermont |
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As I originally implied, I agree that the definition of "geek" is broad:
But I'm going to assume that what was meant by "geeks" in moomintroll's original post was, at the very least, people who consume anime and manga. Which is what the people in aforementioned statistic are. So, assuming the statement "people who buy manga are geeks" is = true, then that would be the audience I'm talking about. As I stated before, I'm sure that we could all debate about whether that statement is true, but I hardly think it's too the point. The point is, manga consumers are, in fact, consuming, and to the tune of over a hundred million dollars. As for why "My understanding is that the market is simply too inflated and badly run to profit from this segment realistically," that is, like most things on this forum are just assumed to be by nature of anyone making a argumentative point, opinions. But what leads me to believe that is mostly interviews like these that I have read or encountered on the internet. |
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Moomintroll
 Posts: 1600 Location: Nottingham (UK) |
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It does but it wouldn't be possible to support the print manga industry through delivering a free-to-own product supported solely by advertising either. You could maybe support web-manga in that fashion (since manga costs a hell of a lot less to produce than anime) but you'd never do as well at that as you would with print manga because, as others have pointed out, most people prefer to read a book than a screen. Also, we're not talking about selling the product here - we're talking about monetising a free product by selling things other than the product, which is an entirely different kettle of fish. Also, I said "teenage geeks" - it was britannicamoore who shortened it to "geeks". The distinction is important because in marketing terms they're two very different beasts. I'm not really responsible if people edit what I say or take it out of context.
I fully agree that a recession is on the horizon. What I really don't agree with is your (apparently CNN-fuelled) theory that it will be on a par with the Great Depression. That is something for which there is no evidence whatsoever and things will have to get worse to a vast degree before it's even a possibility. When you've lived through a few recessions - and spoken with plenty of people who lived through the 1930s - you'll be able to better put these things in perspective. Goodpenguin - thanks for summing up the research point using rather more temperate language than I was able to manage.
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britannicamoore
 Posts: 2618 Location: Out. |
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I can agree with that Goodpeguin.
I hope in the future by the time we finish we can present something that can turn a few heads. Even in a low level something is better thn nothing, and it could possibly clear up a lot of misconceptions. And Moomintroll, It seems like a majority of the media likes to spin things via doom and gloom. I've also heard such sentimates echoed on my local tv stations, and CNN seemed to back their idea. Considering it seems like the market keep falling, and people are fearing it stopping in its tracks... Anyway, I wouldn't be surprised if Detroit faced its own Depression, the millions we keep spending on a cheating mayor and the amount of those jobless in Michigan. But thats a whole discusson for another day.
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sailor_titan
Posts: 51 Location: Vermont |
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....*sigh* see my original statement:
Besides, manga is sort of already supported (though certainly not overwhelmingly run) by a free-to-own, advertising-based medium; magazines. Admittedly, magazines are not free, but they are primarily supported through ads, not the cover price--and they offer an inexpensive way to 'sample' a series before buying it. Moreover, companies like Tokyopop publish quarterlies and online sites that give free preview chapters of manga. Seven Seas has serialized entire volumes of their product online, without suffering--that I know of--any ill effects, not to speak of online webcomics that have later turned into printed comics and sold healthily while the entire archive is still available online. (i.e., Megatokyo and Penny Arcade--though Megatokyo has switched publishers a lot, my understanding is that it does not have to do with it's sales.)
According to this article (dated nov. 2003), teenagers spend $264 a week, and they spent $170 billion in 2002 alone (teenagers here referring to people between the ages of 12-19.) $264 dollars buys a lot of manga, and a lot of anime. That's enough for almost 10 anime DVDs a week. If I were an advertiser, those dollars would mean something to me. It still seems to me, from anecdotal evidence, that one major reason most teenagers don't spend money on anime is a lack of cash to do so. But apparently I'm wrong, at least to some extent. It's also possible that that cash is being spent on more ephemeral goods--i.e. food (which, I remember reading once, is what teenagers spend more money than anything else on). In which case, maybe they should advertise food on a free streaming anime channel
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Sam-I-Am
Posts: 121 Location: Midwest US |
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That dollar amount raised my eyebrows... The linked article does say 'per week', but the source article says 'per month'. The source article also includes data about the survey itself, which was based on a randomly sampled 500 teens in a telephone interview. Other than self-limiting to teens with phones who are willing to take a survey, the survey does make the mistake of including 'spare change' as in income source - for me, at least, spare change is leftover from earlier purchases, not a source of new income. It also bears noting that the survey was conducted on behalf of a manufacturer of ATM and vending machines, so the question structure may have been different than a more formal survey for an economic research group, plus a telephone survey would yield "I think I spend this much" answers, rather than accountant-accurate answers. The report lists average teens as receiving $42/month allowance ($10 per week, roughly), and spending 33% on clothes and 21% on food, so without gift money and part-time jobs, that leaves all of $20 a month for all other expenses. That sounds a lot more like the teens I know in real life. Last edited by Sam-I-Am on Wed Feb 06, 2008 12:28 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Moomintroll
Posts: 1600 Location: Nottingham (UK) |
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I was under the impression that Detroit had been having its own depression for the past 20+ years...
Eh? That's not free manga being supported by advertising - that's manga being promoted through advertising. Not the same thing at all. And since the Japanese manga anthology model has been shown not to work in the West to anything like the same extent as it does in Japan, the Western market can hardly be said to be "supported" by it. Also...
Precisely. And as we all know, if it isn't free the parasites will make it so.
That depends entirely on the manga anthology in question and the market it's aimed at. Furthermore, manga anthology magazines are designed to be cheap, disposable media (like newspapers) - you can't extend the same marketing plan to graphic novels that are produced to a much higher standard and designed to be kept.
Yes. Which has what to do with what? How is that different from the established practice of (some) anime companies offering first episodes for free download or on sampler discs? Incidentally, samples only attract those who are already buyers - the downloaders here all claim that if they can't see the entire show for free they won't buy it in case they don't like the last five minutes of episode 26. 
And anybody brave enough to try and find their way around Tokyopop's website deserves a free comic.
Comparing American webcomics (no license to pay, no terms and conditions to abide by) with Japanese manga (license to pay, terms and conditions to abide by - including digital distribution) is fairly pointless. It costs virtually nothing to make a webcomic. Most of them fail miserably in any case. The few that prosper (and may be adapted into print form) are hardly working on the same model as imported manga. When the major publishers - Dark Horse, Viz, Tokyopop and Del Ray - start making their Japanese manga titles available (in their entirety) for free online and still manage to make a profit, feel free to get back to me.
That's fairly meaningless without knowing the details of the poll sample. Common sense tells me that the average teen doesn't have that much to spend unless they have fairly wealthy (and generous) parents or a job. Even if, for argument's sake, we accept the poll as accurate, you're rather missing the point. The point is not that teens have NO money to spend - it's that they have far LESS money to spend and that the advertising competition for the money they do have is already particularly fierce. There simply isn't enough additional advertising revenue available to support free-to-view anime when there are demonstrably more effective advertising mediums available. You also ignore the point that most corporate advertisers wouldn't touch much of the anime on the market for fear (justified or otherwise) of tarnishing their corporate reputations by association. Coca Cola and Nike do not want to have their names linked to odd Japanese cartoons full of 12 year olds showing their underwear. It's just not going to happen. [Edit: I think Sam-I-Am has pretty much made my point for me with regards to the teen liquidity point - thanks Sam] |
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sailor_titan
Posts: 51 Location: Vermont |
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And yet you fail to qualify the difference.
So, your point here is...magazines are free because people copy them? What? This seems to be a complete non-sequitir. Perhaps you should rephrase your point more clearly. (And as a point of fact, many magazines--AND printed manga--are available for free, via libraries, esp. school libraries, which is one place manga gets huge circulation.)
First of all, you say "That depends on the manga anthology in question and the market it's aimed at," but it would be nice if you had some proof. From taking my media class, my understanding was that all mainstream, consumer-oriented magazines were supported primarily by advertising. I'm talking in the United States here, not Japan. Here in the United States, Shonen Jump and Shoujo Beat have proven to be huge successes. The fact that Naruto, as far as I know, has been continuously serialized in this magazine does not seem to have affected it's sales. If you're going to cry that the print quality is not as good, that's a fair point, but I can just as easily note that most people would rather own dvds than have to watch television on their computer. A yearly subscription to shounen jump will get me more manga, overall, than buying printed manga for the same amount of money. Moreover, even though Japanese people typically throw away their magazines, the same is not necessarily true of Americans, who seem, in my experience, far more likely to keep them. I, for one, have kept all of my Shojo Beats, from the first issue.
Then how are they detracting from the market? If they aren't going to buy it anyway, I hardly see how they're the ones the market should be concerned about.
Moomintroll, for the record, please try not to be like your namesake and make obnoxious comments that have absolutely nothing to do with the discussion. Even if your point here about Tokyopop is valid (and it's not, at least entirely--Tokyopop newsletters have links directly to their manga previews, so matter how awful their site may be, if you're on their mailing list they're still easily accessible--plus that doesn't address the fact that I believe they still have their quarterly preview, as does Viz) you really make yourself look a lot less intelligent than you might actually be by saying things like that.
That's not true. American webcomics have to pay for monthly bandwidth and hosting, which for some of them, is no small cost. Additionally, if they choose to publish their comics, they *do* have to deal with licensing, terms and conditions. Hell, Penny Arcade was not able to publish itself for many years because they made mistakes the first time around concerning those very things.
If that's actually the case, fine. But you don't seem to be showing me any proof. Personally, as I have stated several times before, I'm not convinced that advertising is a panacea for this problem, either. But I'm also not convinced that it couldn't be part oft he solution.
12 year olds and their panties is one thing, but corporate sponsors don't have a problem with, say, Deathnote, and it seems to be working for them. (Chile's was one banner ad I saw when I went on the site, for example.) 12 year olds in panties is one thing, but certainly, I think there's potential for anime to be at least partially funded by advertising dollars if it's of more mainstream interest. Of course, as far as whether advertising word work, all or in part, to help solve the anime problem, is just conjecture on all fronts. But I still feel that teenage geeks, based on the rough research I have done, are a viable market to target to, even if a competitive one. The fact that there are periodicals aimed at this audience and television shows (on audience-targeted cable, no less) shows that there are some pieces of the pie to be had. Whether or not anime can have some of that pie is a variable, however. |
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Goodpenguin
Posts: 457 Location: Hunt Valley, MD |
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sailor_titan wrote:
sailor_titan, I think you may be blurring (accidentally) a couple concepts in relation to this argument The rebuttal isn't that the teen market isn't worth advertising to. Any glance at TV or magazine racks will show advertisers are all over the teen market. The specific issue that came up in this thread was a model of on-line streaming anime that was funded wholly by ad-revenue. The issue here is anime is a very costly medium to produce, and it's somewhat doubtful that advertisers are going to put up the dollars needed to make it a workable system. As I said before, I'm no advertising expert. My wife is a media 'buyer' professionally however, so I'm at least partially familiar with advertising rates on different mediums and the whims of advertisers. On-line advertising isn't usually for 'premium' dollars to begin with, and streaming anime to be successful would have to have as few 'ad-breaks' (where the money comes from) as possible so we begin to see some trouble already. Advertisers are also very fickle, and love to spread their money into as many pies as possible around based on buying trends. This is a blow to ad-revenue supported anime because they would not only need big money poured into a limited spectrum, they would also need it very consistently. (Japan, which has a domestic anime culture that is born heavily by advertising on TV and all the merchandising tie-in's it entails, is having serious issues. If they have finance issues even with all the revenue chains available to them, it casts a bit of a shadow on anime here being supported by limited ad-stream dollars.) To sum it up, don't get caught up in whether the teen market has money and is worth advertising to, they do (though on a 'per head' basis it's a small DI pool, so strength for advertisers is in it's size, not individual buying power) and it is. The question is, is it realistic to expect advertisers to be willing to steadily bear a very expensive production cost in a niche entertainment field (through an on-line medium which usually doesn't command big ad prices), as opposed to spreading their budget around in a very diverse, competitive teen-interest market? |
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Mohawk52
 Posts: 8202 Location: England, UK |
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My this thread is ozzing denial like a dose of MRSA. It sort of reminds me of the passengers who, even though Titanic was sinking beneath the waves, still denied it would sink.
[edited for spelling] Last edited by Mohawk52 on Thu Feb 07, 2008 6:15 am; edited 4 times in total |
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Moomintroll
Posts: 1600 Location: Nottingham (UK) |
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I didn't qualify the difference because it's blatantly obvious. If I give you a free car with an advert for Burger King on the side (because the revenue from Burger King is greater than the cost of providing the car), that's a free-to-own product being supported by advertising. If, however, I give you a free car brochure that encourages you to pay for a car, that's a product being promoted through advertising. The latter is a viable option, the former is not.
Er, no. It isn't. Stop being deliberately obtuse. It's an annoying habit.
Perhaps you should read things in context. The discussion is about anime. Any discussion about manga is only pertinent if it can be applied to anime. Your magazine example is, therefore, an analogy and it is the analogy I was addressing. Do try to keep up.
I presumed you were talking about the Japanese anthology market because the US anthology market is small enough to be meaningless within the context of the broader discussion. If you want verification, pick up Dreamland Japan by Frederik L. Schodt.
Since when have manga magazines been "mainstream" in the USA?
No. Relative to the success of Shonen Jump in Japan, it's success in the USA has been very minor indeed. Anthologies in the Western market have very little marketing clout / advertising potential relative to their Japanese counterparts. That's why you can count English language anthologies on the fingers of one hand whereas there are hundreds of them in Japan.
That's because the point of a manga anthology is, primarily, to promote tankobon sales. Unless you can demonstrate a way to apply that model to anime, it's a non-issue.
How is making a moderately snide aside about Tokypop's awful website trolling? I grant you, if I'd known doing so would inflame an entertaining fit of laughable teenage fanboy pique in you then it probably would have been. But, really, who knew? Good job I didn't bring up Tokyopop's crappy paper quality and seriously uneven licensing choices. You just might have exploded in a shower of impotent fury.
Relative to the costs of licensing a Japanese manga series that may well have sold millions of physical copies before coming to the USA, the costs are insignificant. Pedantry without perspective makes for a poor argument.
I wouldn't have thought it was necessary. I don't know about you, but I've weathered 15 or so years worth of articles and reports regarding the poor performance of online advertising relative to other options and the minimal interest most major corporate advertisers have in that arena. That is not to say, of course, that there have not been modestly successful examples of online advertising - but we're talking here about supporting an entire medium of the arts aimed at multiple demographic niches. You can probably make a case for the continuing success of seemingly unending shonen shows like Naruto or Death Note with or without a physical product - but across the medium as a whole, those shows are the exception to the rule. I was going to respond to your other points but...what's the point? You're only continuing to argue for the sake of scoring imaginary points and it would appear your only reason for arguing the issue in the first place is that you feel somehow slighted as a member of the "teenage geek" demographic. |
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Dust2
Posts: 28 |
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It was quoted that 6 million fansubs were downloaded each week through bittorrent. animenewsnetwork.com/news/2008-02-04/shogakukans-masakazu-kubo-offers-proposal-on-fansubs
Anime companies should do something to capitalize on this. 1. Professional sub the series 2. Make it available for free download the second it finish airing in Japan (give them a day or two head start on the fansubber). 3. Each episode will contain about ten 30 seconds ads. (5 minutes commercial with around 24 minutes of anime program). The typical 30 seconds ad for a TV show with 10 million viewers is around $200,000. This equate to 2 cent per viewer. Ten 30 second ads (5 minutes) = 20 cent each. Also, there would be a premium on the ad rate since there is a well defined target demo. In addition, there would be another premium if watchers can't skip the ad (only about 20% of TV watchers watch ads). Some software twitching to make it almost impossible to skip the ad. With the 5 cent premium, each episode would make around $0.25 per viewer. 6 mil fansubs = $1.5 mil in revenue each week. An episode that is downloaded 100,000 would generate $25,000 for the anime studio. Win. Win. What do you think? Would you download this? [EDIT: Merged your topic with an already corresponding topic of the same subject. -TK] |
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zombie828
Posts: 62 |
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I personally have no need to watch something the absolute second it finishes airing in Japan, I could just wait a day or two until these "professional subs" get ripped and encoded into an easily accessible file with no annoying ads.
Just presenting the opposite side of the fence here. |
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nhat
Posts: 922 |
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Yeah I would definitely do this to support the industry. What is wrong watching a 30 sec - 1 min ad to support the creators that took them thousand of dollars and thousands of hrs to make?
Torrents does not generate anything for the original creators. |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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It is a good idea, but there are problems. zombie828 pointed out the biggest and hardest problem, that of control. Once you release something onto the web, you cannot control where it goes and who sees it. Short of putting software in it to stop people cutting out the ads, there is no way to stop the file being modified by those who see themselves as crusaders for free Anime. Never mind that Japanese television viewers must put up with ads, and that the subbed Anime would be free. Unfortunately, there are those who think Anime should be free of charge AND free of ads. And one person is all that is needed.
In respect to the possibility of software included with the download (or a special program needed to run said file), it is infeasible and ultimately self-harming. Few fans would put up with software being installed on their computers when another sub version is released only two days later and without said software. Besides, there are independent computer experts (read: hackers) that would find a way around such restrictions. Good idea, but the reality is no easy way to change fan behaviour. Which is a shame, because I would welcome guilt-free quality subs released straight after an episode is aired. |
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