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Is Naruto filler worth watching?


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Ohoni



Joined: 10 Jun 2003
Posts: 3421
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 4:34 am Reply with quote
Quote:

If you're not watching it because anime filler has a bad rep, then say that. If you're not watching it because people have warned you it sucks, then say that. A sweeping blanket statement like "what can you expect when it isn't from the Manga." is unsupportable, for the reasons that I enumerated.


They aren't very good reasons though. the evidence is firmly against them. That's my point. If an anime has filler episodes, the definition of which being original episodes used to "fill" the gaps between two manga-based episodes, then they are universaly weaker than the best manga episodes, and almost universaly weaker than any manga-based episode. You can try them out if you like, but they generally just aren't worth the effort.
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joel_s95387



Joined: 29 Jun 2005
Posts: 1804
Location: California... The Village Hidden In The Porn
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 4:59 am Reply with quote
My friend is my age, 21, and he loves Naruto. He doesn't buy any of the toys, games, or manga but he loves watching the anime... unfortunately for Kishimoto he watches it on a place with "tube" and another site that gives you a "space". I did sell him the 1st 2 VIZ seasons for $25 a piece but he hasn't bought the rest as far as I know...

But back to the subject, he loves the fillers. He's seen them all and has told me a lot about them. He said they were great because he loves the other characters, specially Gaara.

I personally could not stand the fillers. After hearing, well actually reading cause I don't speak Japanese, "My Way Of The Ninja" like 20 times in the first couple filler episodes, I thought my head was gonna explode. Fillers offer absolutely nothing to the main story.

Since this topic is about fillers, I assume everyone should know these spoilers. I just kept hoping to see Naruto come close to seeing Sasuke again or the Akatsuki making their move but instead I got a story about an ex Orochimaru village with these guys that transform into a damn monster of all things.

Quite frankly I'd rather watch the shitty movies than sit through the F****** filler. Actually I wouldn't wanna watch the movies again cause those were crap too. I just read the manga now. If I didn't read the manga, then maybe I would appreciate the anime.
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Ohoni



Joined: 10 Jun 2003
Posts: 3421
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 6:51 am Reply with quote
Btw, there's a good reason why fillers suck, aside from that they're produced as cheaply as possible by people that might otherwise be producing doujins or other types of fanfic material, and that's that a filler episode, by definition, cannot progress the plot.

They're a holding pattern.

The characters can't learn any new moves, you can't have any major revelations about major characters, none of the characters can even really grow or develop as characters, because the mangaka wants to save that for the manga, or is too busy to feed canonical ideas to the anime production staff. They can only start where they were in the last canon episode, and end in the first new canon episode.

The only series I've seen that even came close was D.Gray Man, where several of the filler episodes helped to give some soul and backstory to characters that were only briefly mentioned, or that appeared for only a few panels in the manga, presumably at the mangaka's direction because they seemed to fit with the manga. That was interesting. They were still fairly boring episodes by the standards of the rest of the series, and it was still frustrating that they weren't advancing to the cool elements that were left to come.

That series did also have the distinction of having the ONLY character, to my knowledge, to appear first in the anime filler episodes, and only later appear in the manga. That was interesting (although the episodes in question weren't so much).
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Calina_Maito



Joined: 16 Nov 2007
Posts: 23
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 10:32 am Reply with quote
The filler is truly not worth watching in my opinion. They ruin the characters personality and the basics of the series and the stories make no sense. For example, spoiler[after the cannon episodes when the filler starts, I do believe that in a few of the episodes Sasuke is in them. Which doesnt make ANY sense whatsoever since Sasuke was taken byu Orochimaru.]
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BellosTheMighty



Joined: 27 Nov 2007
Posts: 767
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 12:45 pm Reply with quote
Ohoni wrote:

They aren't very good reasons though. the evidence is firmly against them. That's my point. If an anime has filler episodes, the definition of which being original episodes used to "fill" the gaps between two manga-based episodes, then they are universaly weaker than the best manga episodes, and almost universaly weaker than any manga-based episode. You can try them out if you like, but they generally just aren't worth the effort.


Ummmm, the reasons I presented WERE evidence. The evidence can't be against the evidence, dude. Anime smile;;;;;; Although it can be against a simplistic interpretation of the evidence.

My problem is that you're using the concept "universal". That's just not reasonable. Universal means always, without fail, but I've mentioned a number of instances which are to the contrary. Some others come to mind, actually: The "unmask Kakashi" episode in Naruto, some of the DBZ movies (the second one, released as "The World's Strongest" in america, is possibly the best thing ever to come out of DBZ), the "Amazing Bagman" issue of Spiderman back in the day, and so forth...

The "holding pattern" idea is mostly reasonable, but I'd point out that stories are suppossed to stand on their own, for what they are, and can't be criticized for the lack of something that isn't part of the story in the first place. For example, think of why Tom Bombadil is cut from almost every adaptation of "Lord of the Rings". He's there in the book, yes, and he's an important character in Tolkein's work on a whole, but in terms of Frodo's story, his chapter is a mostly-irrelevant side-story. Or, think of Cowboy Bebop. Arguably, all but five episodes of that anime are "filler", completely irrelevant to the wider story arc of Spike's history with Julia and Vicious. Yet this series is considered an anime classic.
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Vortextk



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
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Location: Orlando, Fl
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 1:56 pm Reply with quote
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Arguably, all but five episodes of that anime are "filler", completely irrelevant to the wider story arc of Spike's history with Julia and Vicious.


Not even close to the same thing.

I really don't think I need to give qualitative reasons why Naruto's filler is different than episodic episodes of Bebop.

Episodic =/= filler and I don't believe Ohoni ever stated anything contradictory to that. Bebop the anime WAS the original so none of it is "filler" the way 2 years of Naruto was filler. The episode about the tape and VCR in Bebop where you learn about Faye? A very touching and favorite episode of mine. The fact that it's not talked about later or before does not classify it as filler but episodic.


Last edited by Vortextk on Mon Jan 14, 2008 5:29 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Cheez-it



Joined: 14 Jan 2008
Posts: 7
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 4:48 pm Reply with quote
I didn't watch any of the fillers and im completely up-to-pare on everything thats going on so if don't want to watch it because your afraid your going to be missing out then skip it because you wont the only thing that was remotely related to the storyline that had any connection with the story is spoiler[ when they all faut that lightning guy after helping that guy win the race because thats when sasuke first saw narutos new move]

There is allot of glitches in the artwork when the characters dont even look like themselves at times.
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Zoe



Joined: 05 Jul 2003
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Location: Austin
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 5:24 pm Reply with quote
Just read volume 27 and skip to Shippuden. 27 will have the scenes that were slipped into the filler eps plus it will have Kakashi Gaiden ( Crying or Very sad Crying or Very sad Crying or Very sad )
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BrothersElric



Joined: 06 Dec 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 5:42 pm Reply with quote
Well personally, I can't tell you about it on my own accord because I actually skipped from after the first 2 episodes of filler all the way up to where the filler was at that current moment, I believe it was just ending the Star Village arc. But from what I saw, some of the story arc episodes were at best fairly decent, about on the level of that aforementioned and already aired racing arc. And none of the single episodes were worth watching, probably about on the same level as the Kakkashi's mask or the last half of the episode where Naruto is being chased down by bulls to the tournament stadium (the first half of that episode plus the last 5 minutes is cannon, and really, really good cannon if you ask me). And I'm pretty sure that's about the same pattern for the earlier filler episodes as well, with the exception of maybe the arc about Hinata and the arc about Lee (I actually heard about these from my friends, probably the only part of the filler they actually liked).

Basically, I'd have to agree with Zoe here, just read vol. 27 of the manga and skip all the way up to Shippuuden. Pretty much the only story development that ever happens at all in the fillers is all covered in that volume. But if you want to go back and watch some of the ones actually worth watching just for fun, or just to pass the time with, I'd say just look at the list Emerje made. Those are all pretty much the only filler worth watching.

EDIT: Actually, in a way, you might not even want to watch Shippuuden now that I think about it, or at least if you care way too much about animation quallity or things being dragged out WAY too long anyways. If you care more about story content and don't care about any of that other stuff at all, then go for it. Otherwise, I'd suggest reading that part in the manga. Or at least the first 30 or so episodes anyways. After that it doesn't get too bad with that.
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Ohoni



Joined: 10 Jun 2003
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 6:00 pm Reply with quote
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Ummmm, the reasons I presented WERE evidence. The evidence can't be against the evidence, dude. Anime smile;;;;;; Although it can be against a simplistic interpretation of the evidence.


The reasons you presented were not evidence that filler episodes should be worth watchng. Or at the very least not compelling evidence. You failed to meet the burden of reasonable doubt.

Oh, and the "unmask Kakashi" episode of Naruto wasn't technically filler, since it was based on manga omake chapters, and even it wasn't very good. Movies are not filler because they typically have a higher budget than even the best tv episodes (and probably have at least a little input from the mangaka), so they at least have some cool stuff going on. Plus they don't have to fit in precisely with the canon material so they can have a little mor efun than a filler episode can.

Quote:

The "holding pattern" idea is mostly reasonable, but I'd point out that stories are suppossed to stand on their own, for what they are, and can't be criticized for the lack of something that isn't part of the story in the first place.


Well, one, the filler stories don't stand on their own, they're generally crap, but two, most manga and anime plotlines are so engrossing BECAUSE they are leading somewhere, because each story builds a great picture. Removing that forward progress, while not destroying the point of the series completely, does take an aweful lot of wind out of the sails.

Quote:
Or, think of Cowboy Bebop. Arguably, all but five episodes of that anime are "filler", completely irrelevant to the wider story arc of Spike's history with Julia and Vicious.


Depends. There are only five episodes relevant to Spike's arc, yes, and some people would say that they are much better episodes than the others, although that's entirely a mattr of opinion. Then there's also three episodes relevant to Faye, three episodes relevant to Jet, 2-4 episodes relevant to Ed and Ein's arc, etc. And the rest of the episodes, while they might not be relative to the plot exactly, are not true filler, because they are part of the same creative extension by the creative team behind the series. They aren't an outside distraction to the series that exist just to pass time, they are fun epiosdes in their own right. They fail completely to meet the criteria of "filler".
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BellosTheMighty



Joined: 27 Nov 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 7:48 pm Reply with quote
Okay, okay, okay... Maybe I'm not being clear here. Let me try again. It seems to me that there are two issues people have with filler: 1) it's not by the same author as the original, and 2) It's not relevant to the ongoing plotlines. Correct?

#1 I don't find especially convincing. It's true that filler eps are often by a different author then adapted ones, but I'm not of the opinion that Different=Worse universally. What if a series gets picked up by a *better* author? Those are the situations I enumerated a few posts back, and you can find others if you look hard enough. In fact, now that I think of it, there's a very extreme example: the Star Wars Expanded Universe. The novels released back in the early 90s, by authors different from the original, were immensely popular. Some tanked too, of course, but all but the very worst were better then Lucas' official prequels years later. This proves that the first author does not have a monopoly on the quality of the series. Other good examples emerge when you look at comic books- Stan Lee's original X-Men were so mediocre that they were in reruns for years. But when Claremont picked them up in the 70's and figured out how to play up the idea's strengths, they took off. So I don't see the reason in judging a specific work, and thus a specific author, before you've seen the work itself.

#2 is more significant, but I still can't equate it with "Bad" automatically, unless the pace of the story is important. The fact is, many published stories have side-stories meant to fill time, or are strings of only semi-related events, or somesuch. People try to make the distinction between a filler, omake, picaresque, side-story, spinoff movie, and so on, but I really think the difference is semantic at best. They're all the same- a self-contained story, part of or associated with a larger story, which makes use of characters and ideas in the larger story. I could whip up one of one and one of another and, given that they were both executed with the same level of skill, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference.

If someone makes the statement, "Well, I haven't seen it, but filler doesn't have a good record, so I'd give it a pass.", I have no problem. But if someone says, "Well, I haven't seen it, but filler sucks automatically." then they're being terribly unfair- maybe even malicious- towards the writer.
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Vortextk



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 8:05 pm Reply with quote
You're going on theory and mostly everyone else is going on actual episodes. Most of Naruto's filler have poor animation, re-used music, frame by frame story boarded fight scenes(as in, uses clones, starts rasengan, misses, goes nine-tails, and so on for each arc), no continuing plot, no character development.

I don't think 1 is necessarily bad nor 2. I don't really see anyone arguing with that. It seems that mostly everyone thinks Naruto's filler is just cheap crap REGARDLESS of the person creating it or what it entails plotwise. Your # 1 needs examples or yes, different = worse simply because a different author that makes filler also usually comes with no advancements in characters/plot whatsoever and a cheap animation budget. If that's anywhere near "good" for you, we have entirely different tastes.
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Ohoni



Joined: 10 Jun 2003
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 10:43 pm Reply with quote
Quote:

#1 I don't find especially convincing. It's true that filler eps are often by a different author then adapted ones, but I'm not of the opinion that Different=Worse universally. What if a series gets picked up by a *better* author? Those are the situations I enumerated a few posts back, and you can find others if you look hard enough. In fact, now that I think of it, there's a very extreme example: the Star Wars Expanded Universe. The novels released back in the early 90s, by authors different from the original, were immensely popular. Some tanked too, of course, but all but the very worst were better then Lucas' official prequels years later. This proves that the first author does not have a monopoly on the quality of the series. Other good examples emerge when you look at comic books- Stan Lee's original X-Men were so mediocre that they were in reruns for years. But when Claremont picked them up in the 70's and figured out how to play up the idea's strengths, they took off. So I don't see the reason in judging a specific work, and thus a specific author, before you've seen the work itself.


Again you point out examples of things that are clearly, by definition, not fillers, as they come AFTER the end of the original creator's run. They are EXPANDING the series, not filling gaps within it. Even IF a better writer than the original is workingnon the filler episodes, he'd still be hamstrung by being incapable of treading on the mangaka's toes, by expanding on characters in a way that the mangaka does not approve of. For example, the writer of a filler episode of Naruto could not have Sasuke come back from training with Orochimaru, make out with Sakura a bit, and then tear Naruto's arm off, or whatever, because it would not mesh up with how things have to be by the end of the filler.

He has to take the point A, and the point B, and only fill in stuff that fits between the two, which in many cases is not a whole lot to play with, given that the two points were touching each other in the source material. The entire Naruto filler arc phase takes place within what was only a few hours in the manga.

But even that aside, the ODDS of the filler writer being equal to or greater than the mangaka, in practical terms, are staggeringly against. It just isn't likely to happen. If he were any good he'd likely have a better job, and they aren't likely to pay enough to steal away any real talent from other projects.

Quote:

#2 is more significant, but I still can't equate it with "Bad" automatically, unless the pace of the story is important. The fact is, many published stories have side-stories meant to fill time, or are strings of only semi-related events, or somesuch. People try to make the distinction between a filler, omake, picaresque, side-story, spinoff movie, and so on, but I really think the difference is semantic at best.


To me, even a mangaka can produce filler, and that doesn't make it any more palatable. It's rare, because they usually do have some goal that they push towards at full steam, but it happens. Hitman Reborn, for example, had a hellish "filler" period, as the mangaka was trying to figure out where he wanted to go with the book. What amounted to the first 20-some episodes of the anime were amusing, and I found them funny, but they were nowhere near as good as the rest of the series, which had an entirely different tone.

The mangaka made it, so can it be filler? I think so. I think most of it could be safely ignored if you just wanted to keep on top of the good stuff.

The point though is that filler episodes ARE a diversion from the plot, and DO distract from the pacing and flavor of the source material, so they DO degrate the overall viewing experience of the series.

Quote:

If someone makes the statement, "Well, I haven't seen it, but filler doesn't have a good record, so I'd give it a pass.", I have no problem. But if someone says, "Well, I haven't seen it, but filler sucks automatically." then they're being terribly unfair- maybe even malicious- towards the writer.


Filler is bad because it's filler and it's bad, not for any other reason. The writer needs thicker skin if he wants to produce sell-out shill work. My guess would be that they know going into the project that the only thing they'll get out of it is a paycheck.
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Ultenth



Joined: 02 Oct 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 1:08 am Reply with quote
Naruto has some of the worst filler of just about any shounen show, pretty much everything from when Sasuke beat him up and went to Orochimaru up till just recently when Naruto faced Orochimaru on the bridge (Naruto ep 134 up to Shippūden ep 41) can be skipped with no real consequences, because most of it is pointless, boring and completely worthless in regards to the overall story. In case you were counting that's pretty much 125 episodes of straight filler, yeah, I watched them all, because I'm a bit of a masochist, and I honestly didn't realize how long they were going to continue on with it. Don't make the same mistake I did.

Also, with Bleach as well feel free to skip the entire Bouto arc, and the Arrancar arc is mostly boring set up and you don't miss too much by skipping it either to be honest.
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Ohoni



Joined: 10 Jun 2003
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 4:19 am Reply with quote
You know, none of Shippuden is filler (well, they stretch episodes out with added scenes, but there isn't a single entire episode of filler). It might be a bit confusing because of the first scene they show, but in the manga that scene took place AFTER the most recent episodes, in fully chronological order, but they moved it to the begining of the anime just to give Sasuke junkies their fix (after about two years of nothing).
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