View previous topic :: View next topic |
Author |
Message |
|
Naruto Guru
Joined: 31 Jul 2014
Posts: 34
|
Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2019 5:47 pm
|
|
|
nargun wrote: |
Naruto Guru wrote: | I still think asking each person when 90% are fine with it and 9.9%, usually male/male, are obviously not based on body language is a bit ridiculous. |
Jesus.
90% success is 10% failure. You should not be accepting a 10% failure rate in your general social interactions, that's massively unacceptably high and will lead to severe negative social outcomes.
Seriously: flip the proportions. Instead of 10% of your interactions causing offense-or-fear, imagine if one out of ten of your interactions made you offended or scared? Because that's the same situation mirrored: if other people acted as you've declared you intend to act, that's the result you'd experience.
Golden Rule, you've probably heard of it: do unto others as you would wish to be treated by others. But it works when you're considering ranges of possible outcomes too. Like a rainbow: each drop produces its own rainbow, but each part of the rainbow you see is scattered by a different drop. What comes in is what goes out, scattered and recollected.
Like, seriously, if you halved that, one-in-twenty of your interactions going pear-shaped, you'd qualify as "horrible arsehole". Even 1%, an order of magnitude less, is pretty bad! Actual one-in-ten as a ruling rate, a rate you've described as "ridiculous" -- what's your actual target for causing offense or fear? One in five? one in four? -- is just mind-blowing.
It is impossible to overemphasise quite how far out of line with social expectations your described behaviour is: eyeballing it, I'd say you're probably causing offense and fear at a rate around fifty times what's actually socially acceptable, quite possibly significantly higher. |
I missed this reply before somehow. You misunderstood what I said, or I wasn't clear. In my example (and yes, I just made up the numbers), 900 out of 1000 are fine with it. 99 out of the hundred that aren't will make it clear enough that they don't want it that way that *I'd* look like the idiot if I tried to do it, so obviously I don't. For example, maybe don't stand an inch away from me and lean in if you value personal space? The actual 'failure rate' in the scenario I described is .1%. And I daresay more than 1 in 1000 people do make *me* uncomfortable. You can't please everyone 100% of the time, and that's just a fact of life.
|
Back to top |
|
|
Sethimothy
Joined: 13 Sep 2005
Posts: 121
|
Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2019 5:54 pm
|
|
|
Naruto Guru wrote: | Everyone is far too eager to be judge, jury, and executioner these days. If investigations were done and he was found guilty, fine, fire him. But being fired up in a self-righteous rage toward a guy you'll never even meet, or directing hate toward those who accused him for that matter, is foolish. |
People have complained about his behavior for 15 years, with arguably little to show for it. Of course now that the boil has burst people are angry at the smell.
|
Back to top |
|
|
Phraze
Joined: 11 Jun 2012
Posts: 43
|
Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2019 9:53 pm
|
|
|
Naruto Guru wrote: | See, that's the thing. Certain hugs can be plenty intimate, and then there some cultures use a kiss as a greeting the same way we would a handshake. I try to put my arm around most people to leave them with a good photo, and I've had the occasional creep touch *me* inappropriately and suggestively. For me, the lesson learned was that it's necessary to speak up then and there. When you take something so common and grey as that and then add a vague and amorphous rule like 'consent', nothing good can possibly come of it. Consent doesn't mean a darn thing; creeps are always going to be able to get away with claiming somebody consented who didn't, and morally corrupt individuals or groups are going to incite witch hunts by revoking their consent retrospectively. Everything that's been happening over the past few months ought to be a wakeup call that clearer rules need to be established. If we need a verbal yes or a written contract, so be it, but consent isn't gonna cut it.
As for all of the workplace regulations and such... ok, but dealing with enthusiastic fans and dealing with co-workers are two completely different animals. I think me too started off as something good. People who dealt with real creeps (especially in the entertainment business; those film directors, Bill Cosby, etc) finally started to speak up. But at this point, it's become a social media fad more than anything else, and half of the people I see get accused and lose their jobs end up proven innocent shortly after. Chris Hardwick, Enzo Amore... there are plenty. |
For the first bolded sentence, consent isn't a new thing IMO. Asian cultures are especially clear about that. If "amorous" cultures do exist, then it's about time they change. Culture should not be an excuse to abuse. Like, I've heard throwing food at someone on their birthday was even a thing(?) Moreso in modern society, where people of all walks of life are connected and coexist, being mindful is a good step forward.
As for the second bolded.. Who knows. The business world is messed up, even without the movement I wouldn't go near them anyways. Sleeping the way up is common. An interesting fad of karma, maybe.
|
Back to top |
|
|
Lynx Raven Raide
Joined: 01 Nov 2017
Posts: 412
Location: Central Coast, AU
|
Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:05 pm
|
|
|
Phraze wrote: |
Naruto Guru wrote: | See, that's the thing. Certain hugs can be plenty intimate, and then there some cultures use a kiss as a greeting the same way we would a handshake. I try to put my arm around most people to leave them with a good photo, and I've had the occasional creep touch *me* inappropriately and suggestively. For me, the lesson learned was that it's necessary to speak up then and there. When you take something so common and grey as that and then add a vague and amorphous rule like 'consent', nothing good can possibly come of it. Consent doesn't mean a darn thing; creeps are always going to be able to get away with claiming somebody consented who didn't, and morally corrupt individuals or groups are going to incite witch hunts by revoking their consent retrospectively. Everything that's been happening over the past few months ought to be a wakeup call that clearer rules need to be established. If we need a verbal yes or a written contract, so be it, but consent isn't gonna cut it.
As for all of the workplace regulations and such... ok, but dealing with enthusiastic fans and dealing with co-workers are two completely different animals. I think me too started off as something good. People who dealt with real creeps (especially in the entertainment business; those film directors, Bill Cosby, etc) finally started to speak up. But at this point, it's become a social media fad more than anything else, and half of the people I see get accused and lose their jobs end up proven innocent shortly after. Chris Hardwick, Enzo Amore... there are plenty. |
For the first bolded sentence, consent isn't a new thing IMO. Asian cultures are especially clear about that. If "amorous" cultures do exist, then it's about time they change. Culture should not be an excuse to abuse. Like, I've heard throwing food at someone on their birthday was even a thing(?) Moreso in modern society, where people of all walks of life are connected and coexist, being mindful is a good step forward.
As for the second bolded.. Who knows. The business world is messed up, even without the movement I wouldn't go near them anyways. Sleeping the way up is common. An interesting fad of karma, maybe. |
I'd say was common, not so much these days. It started dropping off in the 90s when equal rights were really starting to be pushed and incidents started to emerge, and these days with so many lawsuits and the fact mere mention can bring someone down within their own sphere the intended targets of these ladder climbers shy away from it. That isn't to say some still give in, but with social media and such it is a lot riskier
|
Back to top |
|
|
JustinTaco
Joined: 06 Jul 2016
Posts: 118
|
Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2019 11:43 pm
|
|
|
I would say "sleeping your way up" is a pretty backwards way to put it.
If we're talking the most common scenario, a man in power and a woman either not or with significantly less, it's more like "sleep with or be forced down."
|
Back to top |
|
|
Phraze
Joined: 11 Jun 2012
Posts: 43
|
Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2019 9:58 am
|
|
|
Lynx Raven Raide wrote: | I'd say was common, not so much these days. It started dropping off in the 90s when equal rights were really starting to be pushed and incidents started to emerge, and these days with so many lawsuits and the fact mere mention can bring someone down within their own sphere the intended targets of these ladder climbers shy away from it. That isn't to say some still give in, but with social media and such it is a lot riskier |
That's the thing. Most of these cases date back to the 90s. Nowadays they're less about power play, but trading sexual favors is still a trend.
JustinTaco wrote: | I would say "sleeping your way up" is a pretty backwards way to put it.
If we're talking the most common scenario, a man in power and a woman either not or with significantly less, it's more like "sleep with or be forced down." |
Some are duped into it, have no other options as you said, or are shunned if they refuse. It's a pretty broad term and not limited to just gold-digging. The Asian scene is especially rife with table deals behind the victim's back (like this, and what I hear about actresses). Men get some. The scene is just... No words.
|
Back to top |
|
|
El Hermano
Joined: 24 Feb 2019
Posts: 450
Location: Texas
|
Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2019 12:39 pm
|
|
|
Key wrote: | I have attended Acen (Anime Central) for the past five years, and every year I've walked away from it finding it to be one of the most energizing experiences of the year. Maybe the kind of stuff you're talking about isn't going on as much anymore, but I can feel the excitement and enthusiasm just from walking around the dealer's hall or the various 'con venues, or playing in a Cards Against Humanity event with literally hundreds of other people.
So yeah, I don't find 'cons these days to be the slightest bit more boring than anything that went on in the mid-'00s. |
I remember I picked up some bootleg One Piece DVDs at a dealer hall in the early 2000s before internet fansubbing was really a thing and watching it with those hilarious yellow subs that called Usopp "Liar Bu". We shared those around in my high school anime club and loved it. Now you can just watch any show online and buy any figures and merchandise you want from all the import sites. I guess technology kind of killed a lot of the mystery of discovery for me. Plus I'm in a serious relationship these days so the old days of con hookups are a thing of the past anyway. They definitely were no mans land territory back in the day while they're a lot more industry run and PR focused now so I can see how con culture has changed a lot.
|
Back to top |
|
|
|