Forum - View topicAnswerman - Is Anime Fandom More Dysfunctional Than In The Past?
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Stuart Smith
Posts: 1298 |
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If you're referring to that Comics Gate thing, it's not really a DC thing. People complain about Marvel because they like Marvel characters and dislike seeing them ruined like that. The second is definately toxic fandom, though. I'm not sure what it is about gay or race issues that make people so hateful. Tokyo Ghoul's mangaka was threatened by American fangirls because they dared to make the main character straight. It's scary.
Assuming you mean that literally, there actually are thousands more doujinshi than whats on the net. Most of them never get scanned. You might be lucky to find them on second hand import shops, but most are essentially convention-only. I know my collection for certain series dwarfs whats available on the main English doujin websites because I physically collect them.
Western fan content can't really reach Japanese levels due to copyright laws being much more stict here, and the fandom for stuff being much more niche. And to be blunt, most of it pales in comparison if we're talking quality anyway. -Stuart Smith |
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Hiroki not Takuya
Posts: 2615 |
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Ironic that only one of the group of about 10 or so toxic ANN commenters (who seem to have a perpetual pass from mods) have commented on this thread so far...
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yurihellsing
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To echo what belvadeer said I think you're mainly speaking for the NA section of fans as most stories of "culture sock" seem to come mainly from Americans who have been burned by the JET programme. Further more I get my understanding of the term "Otaku" from Otaku no Video which from my understanding is that Otaku is more or less used as an umbrella term for Geeks, Nerds, and Fanatics(fans). So anyone who can tell the difference between Gucci and Prada would be a Fashion Otaku. Generally I would blame the toxicity that seem to be present in the community on the amount of fans that have came in via Video games. The reason I believe this to be the case is that they tend to come with some baggage from the mount of mistreatment gamers get from both the general public and publishers. That coupled with the tensions between Console and PC gamers and how some will also comment on those who haven't or don't play *game* or even how they play. For me back in the day if someone said they hadn't watched a certain show it would be met with "WATCH IT NOW!!!" followed by "one of us one of us one of us" One observation I have made over the past few years is not so much the fandom becoming more toxic but just rotting more with what seems to be an invasion of the Memers or "meme lords" as I call them. |
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Cptn_Taylor
Posts: 925 |
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Of course anime fandom has changed over the last couple of decades. Kids growing up in 60s or 70s or 80s were coming up in a different environment than those in 90s and 00s. To say otherwise is to be oblivious to societal changes.
You add on top of that Facebook and Youtube that are for all intents and purposes the dredge of Humanity and other like minded sites that have the real power to amplify and reinforce cultural bubbles with a rapidity never seen before in the history of mankind and it all adds up to an explosive mix. Mind you, the young fans of today grew up in a politically correct world gone mad. In a world where "cultural appropriation" is a real thing as crazy as it sounds. In a world where any art that isn't "inclusive enough" is seen as the object of ostracisation. In a world where masterpieces of world litterature that have entertained youngsters for generations have to have warning pages about "disturbing content" lest it be forbidden in school environments. All this translates into fandoms, and of course also anime fandom. You can see this play all over the internet, on ANN and other sites as well. You want to a fan today ? Be intelligent, choose your battles wisely and don't be afraid to express your opinions. Even if goes against the hivemind. Even if it "offends" some people. If people want to feel offended, let them be. It's not the end of the world and it's not your fault. Once you understand this you can be a productive fan. |
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Greed1914
Posts: 4566 |
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I don't think I've seen any arguments about that topic that in a while. Either that, or I've gotten pretty good at ignoring them. Like you said, the relatively easy access to both makes it pretty easy for both camps to just enjoy their preference and leave others alone. The more prominent examples of really bad dubs are old enough that newer fans probably haven't seen them, or were done by companies that have either improved since then or aren't active anymore. About the only real argument I see about it, and it's fairly rare at this point, is the old, "Why should I have to pay more for a dub I don't want." But that one seems to get brushed off as more of an excuse not to buy at all. |
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Redbeard 101
Oscar the Grouch
Forums Superstar Posts: 16961 |
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What's really ironic is that you would make a blatantly off topic post that is nothing more than pure bait while complaining about other toxic posters here. Nobody gets a perpetual pass here btw. If you have a legitimate complaint about the conduct of another user then report them or PM a mod about it. Simply trolling a thread with bait solves nothing and only adds to any problem there in. |
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Redbeard 101
Oscar the Grouch
Forums Superstar Posts: 16961 |
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Oh they're still here and there. They have lessened but part of that is because we've moved on from the old core hot button topics to new ones. Sub vs dub, the moe craze, BL and shota debates, a lot of the Gundam wars, and even to a lesser extent the loli debates have dropped more to wayside in favor of all the new political and social topics that flame wars are waged over. In hip speak, sub vs dub is so last week. *shrugs shoulders* When they do pop up they definitely don't garner the same ire and zeal they once did. As for the actual question....short answer is yes in my opinion. I've mentioned my opinions on the current state of the fandom many times before already. Greater sense of entitlement, too much available and too quickly so many are desensitized to waiting, lower appreciation for titles that came before and paved the way for what we have (anything before X is garbage etc), and so on. Atmosphere's at cons are different now as well and in my experience are a bit more hostile, or maybe cliquish. I know I'm considered an old coot at this point by fandom standards though so my opinions aren't worth much. Meh. |
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belvadeer
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Well here's a current example of subs vs dubs going on regarding the upcoming FLCL broadcast on Toonami, though it basically boils down to pointless and childish bickering: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lleTz_DQTh4 |
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Agent355
Posts: 5113 Location: Crackberry in hand, thumbs at the ready... |
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I was specifically responding to this claim:
There is a lot of manga parodies, but that doesn't mean every "true" (?) Japanese fan makes parodies or that Western fans almost never make parodies. Jose Cruz mentioned nothing about the industry itself, and his statement supported the idea that Japanese fandom is niche--he seems to be arguing for gate keeping. |
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Juno016
Posts: 2412 |
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I lived in Japan and self-published a doujinshi there. I hung out in an otaku circle for a bit while they helped me start up and every weekend, I was visiting nearby Nagoya and its Akiba-like subsection (Oosu-kanon). I know how the general otaku is, and you're right that they act somewhat different than a general Western otaku, but the general idea of either is not really a barrier to becoming an "otaku" by any definition. The line is pretty blurry and the only time it's ever defined is when the person, by their own volition, uses it to refer to them self. Gatekeeping does little to separate these people from their peers, and it rather does harm to the community by trying to raise a barrier, making the gatekeepers look bad to newcomers and vice versa. A "fan" is defined by their own interest, not their experience. While it sounds like it makes sense that someone with more experience in anime would be a bigger "fan" than someone with a casual interest, it's not the defining factor. One of my work buddies is a big enough fan of anime that he has seen a lot more obscure stuff from the 70's and 80's that no fan of his age would normally know about. He watched anime in the 90's and 2000's and we make Re:Zero and Maid Dragon jokes at work. Still, he doesn't consider himself an enthusiastic anime fan. He just... watches anime like any other media. He's more of a movie buff. Meanwhile, one of our other work buddies is just starting out and, while he doesn't know much, we were able to drag him into some cool things he never knew existed and how he's enthusiastic about learning more. He would definitely consider himself a big fan of anime. What matter is how one views their own interest. It's not a defining characteristic, but rather one of identity. |
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Ouran High School Dropout
Posts: 440 Location: Somewhere in Massachusetts, USA |
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THIS. RIGHT. HERE. Been a regular, active fan since the late 90s; started in earnest when licensed VHS first came on the scene. (Missed the whole fansub era, and Usenet for me was rec.games.frp.dnd.) Anime was my first lasting contact with an organized fandom community. I attend Anime Boston every year, and AAC in NH when I can. And I admit, I'm a gatekeeper--the kind that rips the iron bars off their hinges, smiling and waving as younger/newer fans breeze by. The recently converted are an absolute blast to be around, and I treat them with respect. I can't say how many times they've given me the heads up on something new worth watching, and I point out the best titles from years or decades ago. To me, aggressive gatekeeping isn't just foolish--it's counterproductive. You want to support new blood in any hobby--they're the ones whose enthusiasm will help keep the medium alive long after others have left. |
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TheAnimeRevolutionizer
Posts: 329 |
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Some other fun things I've learned as an anime fan who learned of his entry into fandom by his 10th/13th/tweener years alive:
In the 1990s, anime fandoms were rather toxic for sometimes going very overboard with their anime to be "authentic and 100% pure" from Japan. How so? Apollo Smile. Granted, the stuff she put out was rather a grab for attention, but if anything she was thrashed and trashed badly by the anime fandom in the 1990s. It also didn't help that plenty of the gatekeeping back then revolved around badmouthing Apollo Smile and sometimes going as far as getting her stuff autographed and then throwing it away for a laugh. Did I also mention that, as pointed out from another ANN goer who has helped me in my knowledge of the history and sociocultural impact of anime worldwide, that a dubbing and script director for various dubs of anime back in the late 1990s also had death threats sent out to him if he so much as set foot in a convention? Don't get me wrong. I'm not a fan of the wild mood swings of being depressed and self loathingly dysphoric then bashing and endlessly ripping into what you like as a way of "being humble", especially from anime fan pages on Facebook and otherwise. People like that come across as ingenuine and broken in a bad way to where I don't know if they're doing it to suck up to people who don't respect them and have any proper function to be a human being. Major loss of respect for things like that. As for elitists, they'll always be around. Do your anime fandom community a favor and kick out any asshat who begs for anime being like "the good old days." They always make things awful and insufferable, and if anything they'll be the reason why anime dies out. |
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BadNewsBlues
Posts: 6224 |
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You couldn't? gee makes me wonder how it was I didn't touch Evangelion until like 2008.
With these characters being helmed by various writers some of whom grew up reading those characters and therefore would have their own ideas or where to take these characters you'd figure those people would be used to the characters and their books being "ruined". |
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Redbeard 101
Oscar the Grouch
Forums Superstar Posts: 16961 |
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A good idea I picked up long ago is that when anyone starts tossing the term "true fan" around it's time to ignore that opinion and not give it any weight. Anyone who uses that term is probably about to say something closed minded to some extent and/or judge others by their own personal lofty standards. It's really just a thinly veiled way to insult others that person deem lesser than them in whatever fandom it is. Considering the source here and the topic it's not surprising though, nor the first time to be posted either. I have to echo Juno016's opinion.
You seem to be tossing out 2 blanket judgments here. I don't disagree on the first point to some extent, but you seem to be implying that was how majority acted. Which is hardly the case. Just as in your second point you're really tossing out a blanket judgment when you compare anyone who says or feels "back in the good ole days" is an elitist. This is even further from the truth than your first point. There are elitists in the anime fandom no doubt. They come in many flavors. However, using your point just because someone is more nostalgic, or preferred anime in days gone by, does not automatically make them an elitist nor mean they always make things awful for everyone. For example, I personally think the atmosphere in the fandom has changed and while I may have my own views I would never say or think everyone who is a newer fan fits into that category of being ungrateful, impatient, or entitled. Even for those people who I do think are like that I would still never stop them from enjoying what they like. Just as they should not stop someone else from enjoying what they may like. People who are overly judgmental, on either side of a topic be it subs vs dubs or whatever else, are what will ruin the fandom and they are the ones who should leave. Whether it's old fans clamoring for bygone days who refuse to embrace anything new and think all new fans are ungrateful, or newer fans trying to purge older material from the fandom because it's old or outdated and therefore irrelevant just as those who enjoy it. |
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leafy sea dragon
Posts: 7163 Location: Another Kingdom |
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Something I've noticed, as of late, is that the anime fandom seems to have moved to a bigger target: Western entertainment in general. I'm seeing a lot more negativity toward American movies, television, literature, video games, and such than I used to. That being said, among fans of western entertainment, the feeling is mutual, making it a fandom rivalry.
It is, perhaps, an extension of anime versus western animation that used to be a really big thing in the 90's and 00's. Still is, and it always felt awkward to be a fan of both and get yelled at from both sides.
I forget what the name of the principle is, but there is the idea that the negative, angry, entitled behavior within a fandom happens within a range of sizes. If the fandom is smaller than this range, not only do the fans have to work together to survive, but bad apples can be identified on an individual level and removed before they cause more trouble. (This is what I experienced as part of the Meteos fandom. As in the falling blocks video game, not the League of Legends player.) If the fandom is bigger than this range, there will be a general consensus and the bad apples are slowly made to feel unwelcome by sheer force. (The Pokémon fandom is an example of this--though it's big enough that the bad apples sometimes just gather together.) The western fandom for anime has been within this range for a long time. I think it entered it sometime around the 80's, and as it only penetrated the mainstream with children's shows (the last one to do so being Naruto), the fandom's still within it. This is not strange for a fandom, by the way--most fandoms that have lasted this long, I would say, wind up here. Small fandoms disappear after some time; large fandoms are relatively few in number but you know about all of them. (And sometimes, large fandoms suffer something bad and fall back into this range. American comic books are an example.)
It really DOES cut both ways. I've been in the Sonic fandom since the start, and until recently, toxicity was the norm. Ordinary people with ordinary tastes were made to feel unwelcome. Sonic fans have a reputation for being a particularly nasty, hostile, and aggressive bunch of people, and during those times, it felt like your typical Sonic fan hated everything that wasn't Sonic and were willing to wage war on all other fandoms.
I remember yaoi paddles. I aslso remember convention-goers trashing the hotels and nearby places. (There are still traces of that recently--I can think of a smashed door with "One Punch Man Was Here" written on it, for instance.) The age demographics moving up definitely shows though. It used to be tweens and teens who get caught up in a fantasy world and lose their inhibitions. Now, people are still losing their inhibitions, but it tends to be alcohol-related.
It might be because I live in California, but I saw the subs-versus-dubs stuff before I even got into anime, because my fellow classmates at school had taken sides. My high school's anime club was run by someone decidedly on the subs side. He was the sort to only refer to Japanese animation as anime if he liked it--otherwise, they were just "cartoons."
Well, racist organizations like the KKK are still around--you're bound to find a few racists in any group of fans, especially with the anonymity of the Internet. As for the other stuff, yeah, I see that all the time on YouTube. Lots of e-peening around: Because people can put up content, other people can then mock it and say they're better. (Also, for some reason, a lot fewer YouTube viewers understand puns than they used to. My own videos and their descriptions are full of wordplay, which used to be something people commonly commented on. Now, videos with puns in the title get far fewer views than videos with direct titles.)
Something bugging me about this term: The word "gatekeeping" and "gatekeeper" has been around to refer to media and people's reaction to media for a long time, but until recently, it referred to a person who gets to decide what will be shown and what won't, rather than fans trying to let some people in and not others. The problem lies in how those terms are the ONLY ones used to refer to the former definition, and now it's morphed into something else. That's pretty much what I wanted to say about that.
Unfortunately, the more passionate one is about something, the stronger their feelings will be if they find someone who disagrees with them (especially if it's something that digs at the core of what they like--the Console Wars are a good example). This is because fans will have made what they like into a part of themselves and a part of their identity, and said disagreements will feel like direct insults to themselves and their life decisions. If I said that I didn't like the films of the late Ousmane Sembene, odds are you would just take that in stride and move on because you probably haven't invested much of your time, if any, into his movies. If I told a fan of Family Guy that I didn't like the show, they'd be way angrier than you hearing that I don't like Sembene's movies, because the fan has spent many hours into Family Guy and likely knows a lot about the show. (For the record, I DO like what I've seen of Sembene's movies.) This is a fundamental part of how trolls operate. They know that fans have buttons that are easily pushed, and are indeed pushed all the time by accident, even among other fans.
We'd probably have more of that if it weren't for very aggressive attorneys from the media companies.
What IS the term for someone who is only lightly into something then? Would it be an "enthusiast"? I've always regarded the word "fan" as the lightest term for being into something, and I think many other people do too, considering we have words like "connoisseur," "superfan" and "mega-fan," "guru," and "authority" to indicate higher levels of investment.
Agreed completely. I think the duty of a veteran fan is to be a mentor to the new fans. Make them feel welcome, and they will become bigger fans. Shut them out, and they will go find somewhere where they will feel more welcome.
I can confirm it is still very much alive on YouTube. I used to put up online match videos of the Naruto Storm games--the thing is, I always set it to the English dubs. Sure enough, in came the people vulgarly complaining about that aspect. (And it seems that Bandai-Namco received a lot of complaints about it, because while NUNS 2 had the English dub by default, every game after that had it to Japanese.) I have to wonder if it's currently flaring up with Dragon Ball FighterZ, namely in that the spoken language is set to Japanese by default, which I find really weird as if there's any anime franchise with a huge following for the dub, it'd be Dragon Ball.
In a sense, though, it's easier to make threats like that when the fans speak the same language as the creators and are physically much closer. I'm sure there are people trying to do these same things in the anime fandom--just that the creators speak Japanese and are geographically isolated. (Certainly, I've seen plenty of the above among Sonic fans, which is a Japanese franchise.)
When Anonymous decides to start causing trouble on a wide scale again, that's when.
For the most part, I think they're more veiled. I sometimes see comments, on this very site, disparaging the entire English-language voice acting business as being full of people who can't act and how Japanese voice actors are so much more talented and better-looking. Honestly, it just kind of irks me when I see remarks like that, as I grew up on American TV cartoons and I live in a place where I could just randomly meet up with Vic Mignogna or Nancy Cartwright on the street or at work.
Technically, one of his arguments supports the other, namely that he feels to be a "fan" requires a rather high bar. Hence, it's possible that drawing a manga parody, or a comparable level of investment, is one of the bars to being a fan, and that anyone not hardcore enough to do so isn't a fan.
While I don't know how much of an extent this is happening in the anime fandom (but I know it exists), I have been in some other fandoms that actively try to block out any newcomers, as they're seen as nuisance and an obstacle to them enjoying what they're a fan of to their fullest. (This is quite prevalent in the Smash Bros. fandom, as an example.) If you ask me, if behavior like that were to become the norm for people enjoying some particular thing, that particular thing is going to die a slow, painful death because the existing fans will leave until there's no one left. The thing is, to some of them, this is worth it, while some others don't believe this to be the outcome (or would rather not think about it). Smash Bros. can avoid that because there are plenty of people outside of these core groups, and Masahiro Sakurai is smart enough not to listen to them. On the other hand, I feel that Capcom listens to these groups too much, which resulted in games like Marvel vs. Capcom: Infinite and Street Fighter V, meant to satisfy the hardcore fans but little else. (I've been a longtime fan of the Mario Kart games. I witnessed the fandom being like this up until Mario Kart DS came out, when so many new people came flooding in that these people were completely powerless to stop them, and they just kind of gave up, disbanded, and scattered. I don't know what most of them decided to get into after that, if anything, as I lost contact with almost all of them.)
Is THAT why Apollo Smile refused to voice Ulala for the Sonic All-Stars Racing games...
The "no true Scotsman" logical fallacy at its purest. |
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