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Last edited by Zac on Tue Feb 27, 2018 3:07 pm; edited 1 time in total

Chiibi wrote:

So you don't agree with the statement:

"It's better that obese people know the truth than be fed a sugar-coated lie that could be way more harmful"?

American society does not feed fat people a "sugar-coated lie" about being overweight. Society does not make things easier for them, nor does it tell them to accept themselves for who they are. There are fringe movements around fat acceptance that haven't been embraced by society at large - and weirdly the actual proponents of that line of thinking are never actually involved in discussions like these, their arguments are just wildly misrepresented and strawmanned into meaninglessness by people hyperventilating over the idea that kindness sometimes also works, and not everyone is motivated by Strong Daddy the same way you are.

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Sorry, but I think people need to toughen up and accept the facts. People seem to think they can get out of anything by playing the "I find that offensive" card so they don't have to even admit they have a problem, let alone agree they are responsible for said problem.

So if we're dealing with reality as it is, I would say that where we're really running into trouble is the idea that you're the person who needs to personally enforce societal health and beauty standards on overweight strangers. Or as you're framing it, "fat people need to be shamed by me or they'll never learn".

People are cruel. The insecure seek targets. They tell you that it's for your own good, that society should shame you for looking this way, otherwise you wouldn't know any better. Dehumanizing condescension, like you're speaking to a child who can't take care of themselves. Every single fat person you roll your eyes at and presume to be worthless and lazy involves a mountain of insulting presumption and hubris on your part. It's weird to me that you can't see this, that your empathy for them is so lacking that you'd presume to understand the totality of their experience and the context of their life based on a glance. And that arguing that you, personally, shouldn't cast yourself as their judge is somehow reframed by you "enabling their unhealthy lifestyle", again bestowing yourself with the title of enforcer. You're not the only person arguing this line of thinking in this thread, either, but I would ask, who asked you to do this job?

That's what people are arguing with. The fantasy that it's somehow your role to make fat people feel terrible about themselves, otherwise they'll never learn. Anything shy of dehumanizing, empathy-free shame and cruelty is ineffective weakness because society takes it so easy on fat people. That's a whole lot of bad ideas to me and a lot of other people, and they're telling you so in this thread. At least we're discussing it civilly, but this is very personal to a lot of people. You should probably expect heated replies.

Brand wrote:

Gina Szanboti wrote:

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men must stay at 85 cm (33.5") or below, while women's waistlines can't be any wider than 90 cm (35.4").

Why are women permitted 2" larger waistlines than men? Since they're shorter than men, shouldn't they have smaller waists? And is there no adjustment for height in either sex? Seems a bit unfair to tall people.

Maybe, to take in account for pregnancy?

If that's so, and extra 2" isn't going to cut it. Smile

I would assume pregnant women would be exempt from this dictum, though they probably get caught up in the weight gain net.

Cptn_Taylor wrote:

Why should you not ridicule fat people, especially if they're fat because of choice ?
While in some cases people are fat because of some genetic disorder (and these should most definitely not be ridiculed), most of the time being fat is a consequence of having unhealthy eating behaviour.

How do you tell the difference? Shocked

I assume you're talking about ridiculing strangers on the street rather than your friends, so how do you know which ones to ridicule?

Last edited by Chiibi on Tue Feb 27, 2018 3:33 pm; edited 1 time in total

Zac wrote:

American society does not feed fat people a "sugar-coated lie" about being overweight.

Pffft the hell if they don't.

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Or as you're framing it, "fat people need to be shamed by me or they'll never learn".

Forgive me but I think there's a middle-ground between "shaming" and telling people "Your fat rolls are beautiful; you don't need to change at all!" I don't do either of these but I think the latter is actually worse to do.

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your empathy for them is so lacking

Um, I am friends with overweight people. I love how you just assume you know everything about my feelings towards them from a couple sentences.

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Forgive me but I think there's a middle-ground between "shaming" and telling people "Your fat rolls are beautiful; you don't need to change at all!" I don't do either of these but I think the latter is actually worse to do.

This is a strawman argument. Nobody is making that argument in this thread at all.

relyat08 wrote:

dark13 wrote:

See I'm not fat but even I know even if a character is overweight that shouldn't stop them from being interesting For example let me show you this https://youtu.be/JAo7TTilmBw?t=981 thorough out the series these characters treat each other like real people tell me something ? give me a list of anime that actually have overweight characters treated like human you can't because IBO is one of a kind show no anime has done it before because Sunrise wanted to actually you know put effort into its characters that's just fact which Darling in the Franxx doesn't because its not a good anime, I don't know why people keep talking about its not that good and all it is a waifu anime.

Edit anyways I already give my facts and evidence if people wish to stay ignorant forever that's up to them japan is already way ahead of the game in terms of overweight characters and some studios actually giving them respect.

I'm glad you have so much respect for IBO, but I hope you realize that you are literally destroying your own argument...

???????

Zac wrote:

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Forgive me but I think there's a middle-ground between "shaming" and telling people "Your fat rolls are beautiful; you don't need to change at all!" I don't do either of these but I think the latter is actually worse to do.

This is a strawman argument.

.........yeah, I don't really understand that term so......

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Nobody is making that argument in this thread at all.

You just said I was fat-shaming because I said "they shouldn't be lied to". Which is hardly the same thing.

Chiibi wrote:

Zac wrote:

Quote:

Forgive me but I think there's a middle-ground between "shaming" and telling people "Your fat rolls are beautiful; you don't need to change at all!" I don't do either of these but I think the latter is actually worse to do.

This is a strawman argument.

.........yeah, I don't really understand that term so......

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Nobody is making that argument in this thread at all.

You just said I was fat-shaming because I said "they shouldn't be lied to". Which is hardly the same thing.

A "strawman argument" is an argument making false assumptions about what your opponents in the argument are saying. I think here, Zac is trying to point out that the "Fat is beautiful, so don't change" idea is not as widespread as you think it is, and it's not being argued here. People know it carries health risks. But making fat jokes without regards to those who already feel guilt, discomfort, and shame regarding something they've struggled with in their life... definitely comes across as pretty jerk-like. There are ways of pointing out a problem, but ridiculing someone for the way they are is probably THE least efficient.

Terrible90sDub wrote:

The US generally has a lot more open space than somewhere like the UK or Italy, making it difficult to build sidewalks at all. You could walk around crop fields..

If this argument (the nation is so big) had any weight, the overweight epidemic in the USA would have started at the dawn of the 20th century. Back then the distances were just as big and most people lived on the countryside. The refrigerator was invented back in 1927 and the Ford model T debuted in 1908 (and there were horse carriages before that) so by the 1950s both technologies were ubiquitous.

BTW, the most obese countries atm are tiny:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_body_mass_index

mangamuscle wrote:

Terrible90sDub wrote:

The US generally has a lot more open space than somewhere like the UK or Italy, making it difficult to build sidewalks at all. You could walk around crop fields..

If this argument (the nation is so big) had any weight, the overweight epidemic in the USA would have started at the dawn of the 20th century. Back then the distances were just as big and most people lived on the countryside. The refrigerator was invented back in 1927 and the Ford model T debuted in 1908 (and there were horse carriages before that) so by the 1950s both technologies were ubiquitous.

BTW, the most obese countries atm are tiny:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_body_mass_index

I was speaking about rural areas more so than size alone (a small country can still be rural and have trouble connecting resources). I also didn't say that was the only reason and listed quite a few others which often intersect with it. A lot has changed in a short amount of time, such as how jobs have become less physical while processed food has become more common. Some of those countries have circumstances which aren't really comparable. (As for the era, while people - especially the wealthy - could have cars, you still hear older people say "I had to walk miles to school"... which doesn't really happen today.)

Here's an article discussing the rural obesity rate being higher and some of the potential reasons for it for the curious: https://www.ruralhealthinfo.org/topics/obesity-and-weight-control#contributing-factors

dark13 wrote:

???????

>You said Japan doesn't have an issue with shaming fat people because there is one show called IBO that exists which doesn't shame being fat.

>You said using Darling in the Franxx, as an example of how Japan views fat people is wrong because it is "a bad show".

>You provided an example of a show where a fat person is not ridiculed to prove that Japan doesn't have an issue with shaming fat people(I'd like to point out that they do regularly make jokes about how much he eats, and it is very much in the same vein as Darling in the Franxx in terms of the comedy they attempt to garner from it).

>Another user noted that just as using one show that jokes about being fat as an example of how Japan views being fat is wrong, using another show that doesn't is equally flawed.

>You go on a diatribe about how rare it is to see anime that treat fat people with respect, going as far as to call IBO a one of a kind show in regards to its respectful treatment of a fat character.

If you don't see how you just completely contradicted yourself and gave tons of evidence to the "Japan does have a problem with shaming fat people" argument, I can't help you.

Terrible90sDub wrote:

jobs have become less physical while processed food has become more common.

Yeah, but those reasons apply just the same in the country or the city (albeit theoretically in the countryside you should have better access to fresh fruit and vegetables and working in a farm is still more labor intensive than blue collar jobs).

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As for the era, while people - especially the wealthy - could have cars, you still hear older people say "I had to walk miles to school"... which doesn't really happen today.)

The USA "school bus" was invented in the middle 19th century.

Chiibi wrote:

@Animeking1108

Sorry, but I think people need to toughen up and accept the facts. People seem to think they can get out of anything by playing the "I find that offensive" card so they don't have to even admit they have a problem, let alone agree they are responsible for said problem.

And this isn't just about the topic at hand, this could be about ANY kind of problem they caused for themselves.

For example, I have a problem with acne....but I'm not going to cry every time an acne joke is made in media because "it hurts my feelings". It exists and I accept the reality that it exists. I don't think the people close to me are wrong for pointing it out. It's partly because they don't lie and say "You look fine" that I'm doing my best to get rid of the problem.

Not everybody is blessed with thick-skin. However, not all of those people just own 20 acres of Safe Spaces. Autistic people (some, not all) can't take jokes by nature.

mangamuscle wrote:

Terrible90sDub wrote:

jobs have become less physical while processed food has become more common.

Yeah, but those reasons apply just the same in the country or the city (albeit theoretically in the countryside you should have better access to fresh fruit and vegetables).

You're still ignoring all the other factors listed that cause it to become more of a problem in rural areas. In more urban areas, health can improve because of sidewalks, access to parks, and gyms. Additionally, in most areas of a city, there's a wider variety of restaurants and grocery stores other than Walmart. (See also: That link above)

I grew up in the rural Rust Belt... most people there are not eating fresh fruit and vegetables. Even a lot of farmers will grab fast food instead of cooking something for themselves, especially if they're busy all day taking crops off. Amusingly, I saw more farmers markets and healthier food when I moved to the city.

Invented doesn't mean implemented in every school.

Last edited by dark13 on Tue Feb 27, 2018 5:14 pm; edited 3 times in total

relyat08 wrote:

dark13 wrote:

???????

>You provided an example of a show where a fat person is not ridiculed to prove that Japan doesn't have an issue with shaming fat people([i]I'd like to point out that they [b]do regularly make jokes about how much he eats[/b], and it is very much in the same vein as Darling in the Franxx in terms of the comedy they attempt to

I hope you realise the mistake you did there because through out all of IBO Biscuit isn't made fun off about eating ( in fact I don't think we see him eat at all actually ) because the only time we see that is in the first episode and even that is treated like his eating with the rest of the characters the rest of season 1 his him being the voice of reason because that's pretty much his role in the show,( actually the real joke character in IBO Zack even tho I don't find him that funny) I brought up Darling in the franxx because for some odd reason people seem to think its the be all end all anime with when it comes to overweight characters but I know that isn't the case and Japan knows that isn't the case.

Edit funny enough the rest of the characters are eating in season 1 while Biscuit and Orga regular go and meet with Naze so i'm pretty confused about your statement right now also have you actually seen IBO ? because that comment was pretty much a straight up lie if you gonna make such a claim provide evidence like I did( ie episode links ) where Biscuit was treated like a "joke" spoiler alert tho you won't find it anywhere in season 1 because it doesn't exist go on I'l wait. Just to prove my point again I give you another episode as evidence for my argument https://youtu.be/PrEJpY-35lw?t=350 sooo funy right lol characters having a heart to heart ? LOLOL Joke character right ? and there are many more moments like that now compare that to what trash Darling in the Franxx is doing yeah If your smart I like to think I don't need to tell you who wins in terms of character.

It doesn't really matter that you've "reduce the amount of obesity with a statistical insignificant 1%" over the 7 year period. The fact that they've managed to keep the obesity rate at 3,5%, rather than having it increase, that deserves praise and should broadcast the policy as being successful!

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