View previous topic :: View next topic |
Author |
Message |
|
Panino Manino
Joined: 28 Jan 2018
Posts: 748
|
Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 12:23 pm
|
|
|
CrowLia wrote: |
I also think Gabriella is underestimating the show -or maybe overestimating it- in regards to Akira. The framing of the narrative is giving us no indication that Akira's actions in this episode may be reprehensible. Yes, sneaking into Kondo's apartment would be considered creepy, but we see the scene covered in sparkles from Akira's excitement. When she sniffs Kondo's shirt, the colors turn warm and pastel, making it look like a sweet moment. And even her jealousy about the hamster issue results in her being able to give Kondo the list, once again getting us a pastel colored picture of their hands almost touching. They are "landmarks" in the development of their relationship, designed to make them grow closer. |
Those are expressions of Akira's feelings.
It may be "creepy" for you, but for her it IS a sweet moment.
"It can't be helped", ne?
|
Back to top |
|
|
Spike Terra
![](/bbs/phpBB2/images/subscriber-silver.png) Subscriber
Joined: 21 Mar 2016
Posts: 361
Location: Maryland
|
Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 7:29 pm
|
|
|
Well I'm happy that Akira yelled at her cowrkers. Sure she did it out of jealousy but the only other person at the work station was Kase (and let's be honest nobody likes Kase). Akira could have just saved the restaurant from inevitable customer complaints.
|
Back to top |
|
|
Dian Z
|
Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 2:06 am
|
|
|
I wonder if anyone commenting here are aware that the manga it is adapted from, and thus this anime which is a pretty faithful adaptation as shown thus far, has the genre of seinen romance.
Although being serialized in a magazine of this demography particularly aimed at adult male does not necessarily mean that the heroine is to be depicted through a 'male gaze', it is quite unfortunate that After the Rain is among those which tend to lean towards such particular depiction.
As you may have noticed that, even since the first episode, we've been presented a lot of Akira's thigh shots in short skirt or pants. We've seen some of her ever beautifully stylized hair do, some featuring her figure in wet clothes in the rain, and now seemed to peak (for now) with her wet clothes revealing clearly her bra. And I expect there will be more of those coming up. The others might appear quite naturally, but the tea spilled over the bra scene does seem cheap that I admit I also find it distracting. But the thing is, that it will go to such route again, whether they will be written more naturally or not.
Even Kondo's appearance, although may not entirely have such purpose, can be interpreted as contributing to the seinen romance trope of a 'beauty' falling in love with the pretty much 'ordinary' person. It can surely be interpreted as more than that, as I find myself do that.
What I like about After the Rain is that despite its adhering to the 'obligatiry' seinen romance tropes, it still managed to show a well-thought plot developments, some contemplative and symbolic moments, while presented through some simple beauties mostly overlooked in daily life.
|
Back to top |
|
|
#Verso.Sciolto
|
Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 2:47 am
|
|
|
Blood- wrote: | One of the things I am liking about the series is that we finally have a heroine in a romantic show who isn't a shrinking violet. She knows exactly what she wants and she makes no bones about going after it. How refreshing [...] |
"Emancipate" young women by “allowing” them more autonomy in "choosing" to say and do exactly what previous generations of men wanted from young women, in silence. That's one way this show can be interpreted.
The young woman here is presented as the manager's way out of his current -hellish- existence and she is portrayed as though she is offering herself out of her own volition but she is otherwise not really that different than "muses" in previous tellings of stories like these. The manager is there to educate her and make her aware of her "flaws". That's how I read the remark about the salty egg dish etc....
|
Back to top |
|
|
Ryutai
|
Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 4:28 am
|
|
|
Dian Z wrote: | I wonder if anyone commenting here are aware that the manga it is adapted from, and thus this anime which is a pretty faithful adaptation as shown thus far, has the genre of seinen romance.
Although being serialized in a magazine of this demography particularly aimed at adult male does not necessarily mean that the heroine is to be depicted through a 'male gaze', it is quite unfortunate that After the Rain is among those which tend to lean towards such particular depiction.
As you may have noticed that, even since the first episode, we've been presented a lot of Akira's thigh shots in short skirt or pants. We've seen some of her ever beautifully stylized hair do, some featuring her figure in wet clothes in the rain, and now seemed to peak (for now) with her wet clothes revealing clearly her bra. And I expect there will be more of those coming up. The others might appear quite naturally, but the tea spilled over the bra scene does seem cheap that I admit I also find it distracting. But the thing is, that it will go to such route again, whether they will be written more naturally or not.
Even Kondo's appearance, although may not entirely have such purpose, can be interpreted as contributing to the seinen romance trope of a 'beauty' falling in love with the pretty much 'ordinary' person. It can surely be interpreted as more than that, as I find myself do that.
What I like about After the Rain is that despite its adhering to the 'obligatiry' seinen romance tropes, it still managed to show a well-thought plot developments, some contemplative and symbolic moments, while presented through some simple beauties mostly overlooked in daily life. |
The fact it is serialized in a seinen magazine, it doesn't imply its main purpose is to make fanservice about the heroine. The author is also female, and while she meant to create a very beautiful heroine, she never made her a pure sexual object like some are implying, and it's incredible how they are so much focused on a scene where you can get glimpse of her bra rather than on all the rest, extremely more important. Tachibana wears a short skirt, and sometimes shorts? Sure, she also wears long trousers, and many other well-finished outfits, and you can clearly see the female touch here (as I already said, the author is female). Tachibana character design is indeed closer to the one of a shojo heroine (her figure is extremely thin, tall and elegant) rather than to the one of the protagonist for a male target. She is so thin that I can't even consider her sexy. Elegant? Yeah. Sexy, no.This manga is published also in my Country, and it's liked probably more by a female audience, than by male readers. And it's pretty natural, since it shares elements that you can find both in serializations for males and females. In the manga, we can see also one scene where Kondo is taking a bath. And as a female reader, I can tell you in some circumstances, he is presented with looks and attitudes pretty charming. The author shows all her characters simply in different outfits and daily life situations, but it's never with a blatant and invasive fanservice purpose like some are implying. Probably the scene with the tea is the only clear example of pure fanservice that I saw in the manga so far, since the glimpse of her bra could be avoided, without changing the sense of what was happening. Even tho the series is published in a seinen magazine, this isn't so meaningful for the real content in the series. Indeed, these days the demographic of the magazine became more a technical matter, and it doesn't establish actually which will be the actual target that will love mainly the series. Both the authors and editors know perfectly that the more they mix up elements appealing for different targets, the wider the audience can be. For this reason, we have tons of manga that are published on shounen magazines, like Haikyu or Kuroko's Basket, whose popularity is HUGE with female readers. These days the borders between seinen, josei, shounen, shoujo, are slimmer than ever.
As a female reader of this manga, I can tell you that I disagree completely if you think we'll get a lot of fanservice on Tachibana. Plus, many scenes that you could see as fanservice, they aren't like that from a female perspective, because we get similar scenes, exactly with the same style, in josei or shoujo manga all the time. This manga introduces also a lot of male characters, that can be charming for female readers. Probably, there are more male characters than female characters. And all of them, can be charming in their own way, for the female audience.
|
Back to top |
|
|
Emdykay
Joined: 14 Nov 2017
Posts: 85
|
Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 4:41 am
|
|
|
Dian Z wrote: |
Although being serialized in a magazine of this demography particularly aimed at adult male does not necessarily mean that the heroine is to be depicted through a 'male gaze', it is quite unfortunate that After the Rain is among those which tend to lean towards such particular depiction.
|
I honestly disagree and personally figure the original works female mangaka a very notable presence. Also there is a difference between showing a womans body, including parts that are appealing to heterosexual men, and doing it for the purpose of titillation.
Sure there might be subtle shots or situations in there that are so ubiquitous and stock use in anime that neither audience nor creators realize they are actually products of male gaze, but I would argue that they indeed are subtle and not so overwhelming that it steers the show into clean cut out "male gaze" territory.
Many of the situations depicting Akiras feet for example are shots of Akira perceiving herself, sometimes even through a mirror, thus being visual story telling of Akiras thoughts about herself, rather than showing off her body.
On the other hand there are shots depicting Akira through male gaze with the subtlety of a sledgehammer, like the shot on the bridge after their date. But that is exactly the point here: Kondo perceiving Akira as appealing in those moments.
And not even the wet shirt scene is evil in that regard, as here the lack of ornamental framing and direction despite being the most obviously sexualized situation of the show so far coupled with Kondos absent reaction tells us something about what is going on in those characters. Yeah, it was horribly contrived and cheap, as I pointed out myself, but it wasn´t a fanservice shot without purpose other than being fanservice.
And claiming that anything that physically depicts a womans body within range of being potentially sexually arousing is male gaze regardless of function and context is just silly, by that logic you could never actually portray those in media without adhering to male gaze.
On the other hand there is an abundance of what could be considered "female gaze" so to speak via visual symbolism, as Gabriella pointed out in her reviews already.
So no, I do not consider this a "male gaze" work, in fact I experience this as something heavily on the feminine side, it was simply published originally in a male targeted publication that is all.
|
Back to top |
|
|
Ryutai
|
Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 4:56 am
|
|
|
#Verso.Sciolto wrote: |
Blood- wrote: | One of the things I am liking about the series is that we finally have a heroine in a romantic show who isn't a shrinking violet. She knows exactly what she wants and she makes no bones about going after it. How refreshing [...] |
"Emancipate" young women by “allowing” them more autonomy in "choosing" to say and do exactly what previous generations of men wanted from young women, in silence. That's one way this show can be interpreted.
The young woman here is presented as the manager's way out of his current -hellish- existence and she is portrayed as though she is offering herself out of her own volition but she is otherwise not really that different than "muses" in previous tellings of stories like these. The manager is there to educate her and make her aware of her "flaws". That's how I read the remark about the salty egg dish etc.... |
Tachibana is one of the best female characters that I saw in romance manga, especially if we look at how stereotyped and weak female protagonists are usually in shoujo manga. You are speaking like if all her actions were manipulated by external forces, just to please the male target. I disagree completely with you, her actions are the result of her personal way to deal with her crashed dream in the first place, and her relationship with Kondo is presented all the time as a surrogate of her main love: running. She is isolating herself from her friends of her same age because they remind her of her sense of failure. Plus, you think that only Tachibana can learn from Kondo, but it's not like that. They learn from each other experiences a lot, this is one of the main points of the series. Like different generations can live the same sense of failure, and learning from each other. Tachibana isn't learning from Kondo like to become the perfect wife. The sense of the story is completely different.
|
Back to top |
|
|
Ryutai
|
Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 5:20 am
|
|
|
Emdykay wrote: |
Dian Z wrote: |
Although being serialized in a magazine of this demography particularly aimed at adult male does not necessarily mean that the heroine is to be depicted through a 'male gaze', it is quite unfortunate that After the Rain is among those which tend to lean towards such particular depiction.
|
I honestly disagree and personally figure the original works female mangaka a very notable presence. Also there is a difference between showing a womans body, including parts that are appealing to heterosexual men, and doing it for the purpose of titillation.
Sure there might be subtle shots or situations in there that are so ubiquitous and stock use in anime that neither audience nor creators realize they are actually products of male gaze, but I would argue that they indeed are subtle and not so overwhelming that it steers the show into clean cut out "male gaze" territory.
Many of the situations depicting Akiras feet for example are shots of Akira perceiving herself, sometimes even through a mirror, thus being visual story telling of Akiras thoughts about herself, rather than showing off her body.
On the other hand there are shots depicting Akira through male gaze with the subtlety of a sledgehammer, like the shot on the bridge after their date. But that is exactly the point here: Kondo perceiving Akira as appealing in those moments.
And not even the wet shirt scene is evil in that regard, as here the lack of ornamental framing and direction despite being the most obviously sexualized situation of the show so far coupled with Kondos absent reaction tells us something about what is going on in those characters. Yeah, it was horribly contrived and cheap, as I pointed out myself, but it wasn´t a fanservice shot without purpose other than being fanservice.
And claiming that anything that physically depicts a womans body within range of being potentially sexually arousing is male gaze regardless of function and context is just silly, by that logic you could never actually portray those in media without adhering to male gaze.
On the other hand there is an abundance of what could be considered "female gaze" so to speak via visual symbolism, as Gabriella pointed out in her reviews already.
So no, I do not consider this a "male gaze" work, in fact I experience this as something heavily on the feminine side, it was simply published originally in a male targeted publication that is all. |
I agree with you completely, you explained everything I would like to say with a great English (sadly my English is poor). I think the female point of view is really strong in this series. I find Masami Kondo attractive in so many ways, and I believe you can feel how his character was written by a woman clearly. Plus, not all female readers are into your typical stereotyped bishonen.
|
Back to top |
|
|
#Verso.Sciolto
|
Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 5:46 am
|
|
|
Some selective quoting ahead.
Ryutai wrote: | ... rather than to the one of the protagonist for a male target. She is so thin that I can't even consider her sexy. Elegant? Yeah. Sexy, no.... |
As indicated by previous comments, some unfortunately now deleted, there is not one single look that is appealing to all men and those creating stories and characters meant to be appealing to a male target audience are quite aware of that. Not every male fetish conforms to the same "beauty" ideals.
Ryutai wrote: | ... , her actions are the result of her personal way to deal with her crashed dream in the first place, and her relationship with Kondo is presented all the time as a surrogate of her main love: running. |
... and she is scripted to slide right into his kitchen on the skid ... once in the manager's home the teenage girl naturally proceeds to cook a meal for the manager's son. Smoothly, as if she'd never wanted anything else out of life than to be given that opportunity ...
|
Back to top |
|
|
Blood-
![](/bbs/phpBB2/images/subscriber-silver.png) Bargain Hunter
Joined: 07 Mar 2009
Posts: 23972
|
Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 7:35 am
|
|
|
Dian Z wrote: | What I like about After the Rain is that despite its adhering to the 'obligatiry' seinen romance tropes, it still managed to show a well-thought plot developments, some contemplative and symbolic moments, while presented through some simple beauties mostly overlooked in daily life. |
I agree with this. I also agree with your comment that there are male gaze moments. I'm a male with a gaze so they don't particularly bother me, but they are unquestionably there.
|
Back to top |
|
|
Panino Manino
Joined: 28 Jan 2018
Posts: 748
|
Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:50 am
|
|
|
You're projecting so hard @#Verso.Sciolto...
Seriously boys (@Dian Z also), there's no reason to "fear", we already said that. Your "worst fears" about how this story will progress are unfounded.
We can't convince against the male gaze argument, I personally thing that it's thematically coherent that we see so many shots of Akira's legs, but even if there's a thematic reason, well, we are still seeing her slender legs and this may please some. But that is personal, just personal.
@Ryutai
What country are you from?
|
Back to top |
|
|
Blood-
![](/bbs/phpBB2/images/subscriber-silver.png) Bargain Hunter
Joined: 07 Mar 2009
Posts: 23972
|
Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:05 am
|
|
|
Panino Manino wrote: | I personally thing that it's thematically coherent that we see so many shots of Akira's legs, but even if there's a thematic reason, well, we are still seeing her slender legs and this may please some. But that is personal, just personal. |
It's definitely personal in terms of what kind of reaction shots like that evoke in individual viewers. For myself, I don't classify After the Rain as a fan servicey show despite being aware of the male gaze moments. There has been nothing that has aroused my libido the way shows that I actually consider fan servicey can do. Partly that's because the show's character designs aren't sexy to me (although I do like Akira's visual look) and partly because of the execution and tone of the show. However, in a discussion like this, I think you have to separate out whatever your personal response may be and think, "what is the intention of this shot in the minds of the production staff?" A shot may have more than one function. A shot can be fulfilling a thematic element as you suggest AND ticking off the male gaze box at the same time.
|
Back to top |
|
|
Ryutai
|
Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:21 am
|
|
|
#Verso.Sciolto wrote: | Some selective quoting ahead.
Ryutai wrote: | ... rather than to the one of the protagonist for a male target. She is so thin that I can't even consider her sexy. Elegant? Yeah. Sexy, no.... |
As indicated by previous comments, some unfortunately now deleted, there is not one single look that is appealing to all men and those creating stories and characters meant to be appealing to a male target audience are quite aware of that. Not every male fetish conforms to the same "beauty" ideals. |
My point is that Akira is absolutely drawn according to shoujo manga standards used for female leads. So, no matter what you or me could consider "sexy", this is an objective fact. The art style used in this manga in general is way more typical for shoujo and josei than for shounen and seinen.
Quote: | ... and she is scripted to slide right into his kitchen on the skid ... once in the manager's home the teenage girl naturally proceeds to cook a meal for the manager's son. Smoothly, as if she'd never wanted anything else out of life than to be given that opportunity ... |
It's not like she wants to become a housewife just because she is happy to cook something for the son of the guy she likes. First, there wouldn't be anything wrong with the fact that she wanted actually to become a housewife (you are insulting a whole category of women here, implying being a housewife is something derogatory, and all stay-at-home men as well), second, the plot already made blatant which her real passion is: running. Naturally, it's your free choice ignore all the most important plot points, and consider only the ones that fit your interpretation of the story.
|
Back to top |
|
|
Ryutai
|
Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:51 am
|
|
|
Panino Manino wrote: |
@Ryutai
What country are you from? |
I'm from Italy, this manga is published here with the title "Come dopo la pioggia", and it is generally very appreciated. I think most people are reading it are females, because the art style induce many people to think it is shoujo.
@Blood-
Quote: | A shot may have more than one function. A shot can be fulfilling a thematic element as you suggest AND ticking off the male gaze box at the same time. |
Some shots that you believe can pander to male gaze, actually can pander to female gaze too. And I'm speaking as a female myself. For example, when we see Akira smelling Kondo's clothes, according to your point of view this could be something made only to satisfy male fantasies, but personally when I see her behaving this way, I feel all warm and fuzzy inside, because I find that smelling the scent of the one who you love, especially if you can't have that person close to you, is extremamently romantic.
It's the bittersweet touch of the unrequited love.
|
Back to top |
|
|
Blood-
![](/bbs/phpBB2/images/subscriber-silver.png) Bargain Hunter
Joined: 07 Mar 2009
Posts: 23972
|
Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 12:17 pm
|
|
|
@ Ryutai - ah no, I would never think of a scene of a girl sniffing a guy's clothes as an example of the male gaze in action. That's just way too girly. I lump that in with Akira snagging the receipt from their date as a memento. Nah, male gaze shots are when the camera reaches out, pulls you by the lapels and says, "here! Look! Check out these gams/breasts/butts!"
I'm very glad to hear the show is delivering on female-oriented service, though.
|
Back to top |
|
|
|