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Ajc228
Joined: 29 Dec 2015
Posts: 265
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 Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 1:58 pm
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| Ragdollomega wrote: |
| Ajc228 wrote: | | Yes, I'm aware this is WWI, but it's essentially nazis and I can't abide by how they frame Tanya as this cool character. |
You're aware that this is set in a (somewhat delayed) WWI time period, but of course because it involves essentially Germany, it's Nazi's lol. Cus everything German has to be Nazi's. Good for you man.  |
I'm not gonna argue semantics,dude. Don't kid yourself. They can call themselves whatever they want in the show but for all intents and purposes they are Nazis.
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Lemonchest
Joined: 18 Mar 2015
Posts: 1771
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Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 2:09 pm
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| Ragdollomega wrote: |
| Ajc228 wrote: | | Yes, I'm aware this is WWI, but it's essentially nazis and I can't abide by how they frame Tanya as this cool character. |
You're aware that this is set in a (somewhat delayed) WWI time period, but of course because it involves essentially Germany, it's Nazi's lol. Cus everything German has to be Nazi's. Good for you man. |
Tanya purposely blurs both wars (& arguably going as far back as the Second Schleswig War) together, both in terms of combatants, technology & the ebb & flow of battle. For instance, it starts with the Germans pursuing an equivilent of the Schlieffen Plan (WW1) but ends with the French evacuating from Brest to Algeria, which is Operation Ariel (WW2).
Really, though, these alternative 20th century wars that never left Europe stories are just ways for military otaku to get their jollies out of 20th century warfare while keeping Japan's complicated involvement in both wars out of it - not to mention ensuring their story has any hope of selling in the rest of Asia.
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TasteyCookie
Joined: 19 Jan 2017
Posts: 423
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Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 3:01 pm
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| Zeino wrote: | | I don't care how clever the writing is or if it's intended to be black comedy, anything that tries to make any form of fascism look cool and admirable especially in these times is morally repugnant from my point of view. |
The show doesn't frame any sort of fascism as cool or honorable. It 100% portrays Tanya as an awful person doing awful things. The show has no apologetic tone for the protagonist at all, which is what makes it so refreshing.
Honestly if someone watches this show and think it's trying to portray war or Nazi's as cool, they should reflect on what their own viewpoints are instead of trying to force their own narrative.
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Tuor_of_Gondolin
Joined: 20 Apr 2009
Posts: 3524
Location: Bellevue, WA
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Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 3:17 pm
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One of the interesting things about this series is that while Tanya does some pretty bad things, many of those in the Imperial Staff are *much worse* than she is. Pay attention to those staff meetings and listen to what the generals are talking about.
Yes, if all you care about is explosions (and I do like my explosions), then Tanya could be looked as being kind of cool. But that is a very shallow way of viewing what is going on. Once you start taking a closer look at things, it's pretty clear that the people behind the series are NOT glorifying what the military is doing. In fact, it's a critique of war and the philosophy behind using war to achieve national goals. It's a pretty interesting series, and one that *ought* to at least mildly disturb anyone who watches it.
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ultimatehaki
Joined: 27 Oct 2012
Posts: 1090
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Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 4:33 pm
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| Ajc228 wrote: |
| Ragdollomega wrote: |
| Ajc228 wrote: | | Yes, I'm aware this is WWI, but it's essentially nazis and I can't abide by how they frame Tanya as this cool character. |
You're aware that this is set in a (somewhat delayed) WWI time period, but of course because it involves essentially Germany, it's Nazi's lol. Cus everything German has to be Nazi's. Good for you man. |
I'm not gonna argue semantics,dude. Don't kid yourself. They can call themselves whatever they want in the show but for all intents and purposes they are Nazis. |
So you're saying Tanya and by extension not-germany is trying the purge the world of impure races so the one superior race can reign supreme and carry out government control purging of specific religious groups? Cause what I saw was a country defending their homeland from invasion.
Get over yourself.
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Sahmbahdeh
Joined: 05 May 2015
Posts: 713
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Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 4:36 pm
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I don't understand how someone can watch this show and think it's an indictment of Tanya or her worldview; it clearly works. She does rise through the ranks like she said she would, and she is ultimately successful. The real enemy is Being X, who unfairly and idiotically sends her/him to a war-torn alternate world for simply doing his job (if you recall, he was told by his superior to fire the guy, meaning it wasn't even his decision. Now granted, that could be commenting on the whole "I was only following orders!" line of logic (see: Nazis), but there's simply not enough there for it to be anything other than shallow). Also, Being X has to constantly change the goalposts, adding additional modifiers to her situation because Tanya's too good at adapting to her environment. If anything that seems like a rousing endorsement of the cutthroat capitalism that Tanya represents.
If I may play armchair philosopher for a moment, I might even mention that you could look at how Being X and it's arbitrary limiters represent a socialized government entity, hampering Tanya's free market, entrepreneurial spirit. It's no Atlas Shrugged, for sure, but it's interesting to think about.
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Ragdollomega
Joined: 24 Feb 2017
Posts: 72
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Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 4:39 pm
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| Lemonchest wrote: | |
Tanya purposely blurs both wars (& arguably going as far back as the Second Schleswig War) together, both in terms of combatants, technology & the ebb & flow of battle. For instance, it starts with the Germans pursuing an equivilent of the Schlieffen Plan (WW1) but ends with the French evacuating from Brest to Algeria, which is Operation Ariel (WW2).
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Yeah, I know that the show mixes WW2 events and tech later on. It was really interesting reading comments by history buffs in the forums pointing out the different events each of the battles were based on as the show was airing.
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Ajc228
Joined: 29 Dec 2015
Posts: 265
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Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 5:01 pm
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| ultimatehaki wrote: |
| Ajc228 wrote: |
| Ragdollomega wrote: |
| Ajc228 wrote: | | Yes, I'm aware this is WWI, but it's essentially nazis and I can't abide by how they frame Tanya as this cool character. |
You're aware that this is set in a (somewhat delayed) WWI time period, but of course because it involves essentially Germany, it's Nazi's lol. Cus everything German has to be Nazi's. Good for you man. |
I'm not gonna argue semantics,dude. Don't kid yourself. They can call themselves whatever they want in the show but for all intents and purposes they are Nazis. |
So you're saying Tanya and by extension not-germany is trying the purge the world of impure races so the one superior race can reign supreme and carry out government control purging of specific religious groups? Cause what I saw was a country defending their homeland from invasion.
Get over yourself. |
There is nothing to get over. Im not virtue signaling or casting aspersions on those who like the show. I stated a criticism of the show and my personal view on it. There is no need to get defensive or internalize my critique of a show as a criticism of those who enjoy it. All the people jumping to say"well actually, bro.." can chill.
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ultimatehaki
Joined: 27 Oct 2012
Posts: 1090
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Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 5:08 pm
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Since you seem to have missed the point I'll just spell it out. When you criticize something it actually has to be based on solid fact or foundation, otherwise it just comes off as ignorance at best or total nonsense at worst which is what your Germany=Nazi argument was.
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Ajc228
Joined: 29 Dec 2015
Posts: 265
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Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 5:39 pm
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| ultimatehaki wrote: | | Since you seem to have missed the point I'll just spell it out. When you criticize something it actually has to be based on solid fact or foundation, otherwise it just comes off as ignorance at best or total nonsense at worst which is what your Germany=Nazi argument was. |
Yeah, I'm not gonna engage in a back in forth about why or why not the Empire are essentially Nazis. Nothing you say is going to change my view, just as nothing I say would change yours. We're gonna have to agree to disagree about how we characterize the Empire.
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ultimatehaki
Joined: 27 Oct 2012
Posts: 1090
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Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 5:46 pm
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Sigh. For the thousandth time no one can provide even one reason as to why they're Nazis. Oh well I give up.
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maximilianjenus
Joined: 29 Apr 2013
Posts: 2894
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Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 6:00 pm
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errr. not really, is a common theme/joke in the series that things always go wrong for tanya, sure she climbs some military ranking, but that's not what she wants at all, what she always wants is get a decent position but more importantly, get sent to the back lines so she can actually survive the war and live peacefully, having the war I stil head to a wwII scenario where germany loses is tanya's huge losing battle, no matter what she does the military brass won't listen to her to avoid that. that's both a big joke anda big theme in the series which makes me think people who disregard that either did not watch it, did nto pay attention or diseregard that to make their silly little moral points.
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Key
Moderator
Joined: 03 Nov 2003
Posts: 18396
Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley)
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Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 6:40 pm
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| Ajc228 wrote: | | There is nothing to get over. Im not virtue signaling or casting aspersions on those who like the show. I stated a criticism of the show and my personal view on it. There is no need to get defensive or internalize my critique of a show as a criticism of those who enjoy it. All the people jumping to say"well actually, bro.." can chill. |
You used the phrase "all this admiration of Nazis" to refer to actually liking Tanya as a character and you expect people to not take that the wrong way?
Sorry, but there's no "agree to disagree" option in that scenario. Tanya isn't a Nazi; in fact, she's probably find most true Nazis sentiment to be wasteful and ridiculous.
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Zeino
Joined: 19 May 2017
Posts: 1098
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Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 6:49 pm
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| Key wrote: | | Tanya isn't a Nazi; in fact, she's probably find most true Nazis sentiment to be wasteful and ridiculous. |
She may not be an actual Nazi but Tanya is still a perfectly willing and happy servant of imperial militaristic authoritarian regime. From any principled Leftist view, she still is a fascist.
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Sahmbahdeh
Joined: 05 May 2015
Posts: 713
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Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 7:15 pm
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| maximilianjenus wrote: |
errr. not really, is a common theme/joke in the series that things always go wrong for tanya, sure she climbs some military ranking, but that's not what she wants at all, what she always wants is get a decent position but more importantly, get sent to the back lines so she can actually survive the war and live peacefully, having the war I stil head to a wwII scenario where germany loses is tanya's huge losing battle, no matter what she does the military brass won't listen to her to avoid that. that's both a big joke anda big theme in the series which makes me think people who disregard that either did not watch it, did nto pay attention or diseregard that to make their silly little moral points. |
But the fact of the matter is, Tanya would probably have succeeded if not for the meddling of Being X. Like, it just arbitrarily decides to change criteria and add a bunch of extra rules and conditions, and goes out of it's way to make Tanya's lot harder, because she was succeeding at first. That is the reason it made things harder for her to begin with. Sure, she gets the raw deal when dealing with the military, but that's just another example of a big bureaucracy getting in the way, which goes back to what I was saying before.
Her issues had nothing to do with her worldview or morals, it was simply unrelated shenanigans that were totally out of her control. If the show was trying to say that her worldview was the problem, and wanted to criticize her, it would have done so by making her fail on her own terms. By making others be at fault for her problems, (the military brass, Being X, etc.), it actually reinforces the individualistic, fierce-capitalist nature of the show. Now whether that's intentional or not, I couldn't say, but it's definitely there in the writing.
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