Forum - View topic

INTEREST: Anime Director Yamakan Declares Anime Dead

Broadening the definition

Maokun wrote:

What about stop complaining and be the change you want to see, Yamakan!?

I think he tried – that's what he's saying, but basically the higher-ups won't allow him to do what he wants because they fear it won't sell. q.e.d.

And anyway, I don't see any reason why he shouldn't be able to complain or criticize just because he is part of the industry.

The crap being made today though? It makes my skin crawl. The rampant infantilization of girls, the idol fandom, the herbivore male culture/metro-sexualization of guys, the teen drama, the try-hard attempts at maturity --- this puerile shallowness that defines the modern otaku era is completely at odds with me spiritually. A bad show in the 90's might make me yawn, or even roll my eyes and shut off the TV. A bad show nowadays? The first episode of Tokyo Ghoul made me want to hurl a brick at my monitor. It feels like if the shows being made aren't for pretentious teens, they're for hollow, libidinous adults that never grew up.

0nsen wrote:

That's easy. Moe is the entire subculture of anime, manga, etc.

This is the sort of obfuscating reasoning I think that fringe moe-supporters use to defy the general perceptions of what constitutes moe anime. Broadening the definition to that sort of all-encompassing extent just comes across as far-reaching wishful thinking, than any sort of realistic recognition of how the term is being popularly used.

Kikaioh wrote:

Broadening the definition

Implying that there is a definition.
The point is, there is none.

Personally, I tend to side with Azuma Hiroki's definition of moe (desirable character traits). Very basically, this desire for moe-elements was brought about by the shift in consumption patterns in the 1990s with the new, postmodern generation of otaku. This then led to a change in the focus of production later on to cater to their tastes. Again, this lines up with your observations with regard to the production market not taking advantage of this shift until later, with shows that were more interested in creating desirable characters (and merchandise) instead of building grand narratives taking the spotlight. Of course, it wasn't known or marketed as moe until much later on as well, which is why you might not have heard of the term until sometime after the shift took place.

Perhaps we're just playing semantic games. But I personally don't favor the whole "moe = cute girls" or "moe = a style". It's too reductive, too simplistic, and paints a target on a specific type of show or artstyle when it's something that goes beyond that. The current style is just what happens to be desirable by the otaku in this current generation, just like how Ayanami Rei was viewed as a moe character by that generation (even if they didn't use the term). She was so popular, that her desirable character traits (moe-elements) were emulated by "Ayanami clone" characters from other anime like "Ruri Hoshino, Ruriko Tsukushima, Miharu, Anthy Himemiya, and Lain Iwakura".

Essentially, it's not as broad a definition as you're making it out to be. The concept of moe and moe-elements did not exist before this shift in consumption patters because the otaku were consuming anime for different reasons and anime was produced to cater to those needs. However, moe was indeed a thing way before it was recognized and marketed as moe as all moe needs to exist is for the consumer to recognize it as such. Therefore, what can be considered moe today, might not be tomorrow.

On a related note, why do some fans feel the need to value judge? I'm still wondering to this day. Pulling out my cynical side, I argue that by applying value judgment to taste they can then feel like they are better human beings and look down on others for liking or disliking certain shows. “Otaku-pandering” is just another term that is used to “other” the otaku and make oneself feel superior to them. But is that all? Where does all this stem from? Is this constructive in any way whatsoever?

Maybe it's just because I'm really, really, really open minded. I mean, I've hated shows before, but I've never referred to their fans as "hollow, libidinous adults that never grew up" like that's a bad thing (Hint: It isn't). Maybe I should start calling anime "elitists", "pretentious, pseudo-intellectuals who constantly pine for a romanticized past in a bid to quell their social anxieties and remain relevant in today's culture".

Oh, don't worry, I'm sure that many of us are very much aware of your stance on the issue. But seriously, your moral panic is nothing new. I'm sure that those of the previous generation felt just as offended or outraged at the very things you enjoy. Rock music being the devil's work and all that. (Out of pure unadulterated curiosity, I can get where you're coming from with most of it, but what's your issue with herbivore male culture again?)

On a related note, why do some fans feel the need to value judge? I'm still wondering to this day. Pulling out my cynical side, I argue that by applying value judgment to taste they can then feel like they are better human beings and look down on others for liking or disliking certain shows. “Otaku-pandering” is just another term that is used to “other” the otaku and make oneself feel superior to them. But is that all? Where does all this stem from? Is this constructive in any way whatsoever?

Maybe it's just because I'm really, really, really open minded. I mean, I've hated shows before, but I've never referred to their fans as "hollow, libidinous adults that never grew up" like that's a bad thing (Hint: It isn't). Maybe I should start calling anime "elitists", "pretentious, pseudo-intellectuals who constantly pine for a romanticized past in a bid to quell their social anxieties and remain relevant in today's culture".

Indeed, "popularly used"... Used to demonize, ridicule, value judge and silence discussion, you mean. I wonder why we're trying to "broaden" the term's definition - by which I mean, actually using our critical thinking faculties and not take things at face value.

I have nothing to complain about I love everything about anime and have never disliked a single thing I've ever watched and doubt I ever will. I wait until it's available to buy on bluray/dvd and enjoy, I'm a simple girl

I personally don't care about feeling as though I'm a "better human being" than otaku (tbh, I actually somewhat pity otaku in Japan and the state that their culture currently is in, since it seems for many to be a bit self-destructive with a long-term zero sum game). If it comes across as value judging, though, I think it's understandable, as the industry has changed over time to cater to very particular tastes, so it stands to reason that there will be people who grow to dislike and outwardly express their disappointment with the direction things have headed in. Having to wade through so much more distasteful content these days in order to find something appealing, I think increases the frustration of being a fan of something you loved, and realizing just how much it's transformed into something you dislike.

To be fair, I think word definitions can be flexible, and have different meanings depending on context. Certainly you can use "moe" in a broader sense to try and point out certain characters from past generations that you feel are "moe". Unfortunately though, you can want for people to focus on your specific usage as much as you like, but the reality is that definitions ultimately come from popular usage. So to try and deny the usage of "moe" as it refers to the various cultural and stylistic trends of the past decade, that isn't so much "using critical thinking" as it is "wanting to avoid reality".

Everybody seems to be talking about late-night anime. Is that really synonymous with the anime industry?

What about the family shows that dominate the ratings charts?
What about movies?
What about commercials? Does Japan not have animated advertisements, public service announcements, and promotional videos?

I do not see any indication that late-night anime is in trouble, but if it is would that be the end of the anime industry?

Those are not rhetorical questions.
I really do not know much about the anime business in Japan.

I hope this answer your question.