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Subaru has a neat solution to Betelgeuse trying to possess him that hadn't occurred to me: invoke the Witch

Funnily enough, that also hadn't occurred to me. I was 100% sure that they would use Julius connection to spirits to do something about it. It took me off guard and I was super excited to see what would happen.

I don't know... from where we are now, the best thing I can think of to say about this show is that it was definitely high-budget, and used its funds efficiently. It's well-constructed and animated and all of that. But that doesn't change what it is. So what is it? Well...

Comparisons to Madoka and Evangelion, especially the latter, were inevitable, and I probably don't need to explain why. Definitely a lot of similarities there. People hate on Shinji and Subaru for essentially the same reason--they're both subverted self-insert characters that unexpectedly start to exhibit negative characteristics of the viewer, so they push back in order to deny that they're like that and/or deny the existence of that sort of person entirely, and... okay, wait.

There's actually some important, but maybe not so obvious, differences between this show and those two predecessors, which have a lot to do with why I think it's... less significant, let's say. First, Madoka and Eva are about depression, and its effects on individuals, relationships, and society. Re:Zero is not; in fact, it could be read as a stereotypical attack on depressed or disaffected young people, claiming they're just lazy and entitled. (Middle-aged humanity's oldest pastime.) Hard to say if that's really the intent, since you could read almost any "bland everyperson develops into hero" story like that; but I think that's one of the main things that kept me from getting into it, since it was pretty obvious from the beginning.

The other big issue is the genre, which, while presented in a brutal and subversive way, it clearly never had any intention of escaping. (It's the harem genre. The second arc makes this especially obvious.) Magical girls and giant robots make somewhat better platforms for telling a story, because they're more generic--open to broad interpretation, and not... sort of pre-scripted as a mildly sexist wish-fulfillment sort of thing. Because, let's face it, despite being much more than merely otaku wish-fulfillment, that's still Re:Zero's foundation. It wants to be really good otaku wish-fulfillment, and strives to teach its target audience a thing or two about life... but still.

The finale makes this show's true essence clearer than ever--not even one of the numerous powerful women gets to do anything at all as Subaru, with help from several other men, finally gets to be a hero, kill the bad guy, and save the girl+children from a big giant explosion. Then he has his reunion with Emilia and somehow the whole conversation seems to be about him--not all positive stuff, to be fair, but for all his talk of the 2000 things he loves about her, he doesn't list a single one (quite unlike what Rem did for him). This is exactly what you'd expect from a harem show. The actual romantic interest is the least-developed one (insert any hypothetical girlfriend here), and the other women are primarily tools to enhance the male lead's development. Light novel spoiler: spoiler[I've heard Rem is going to end up in a coma sometime soon, so, no surprise there either.] He did have to suffer quite a bit to get here, but this is where he was trying to get... not to be an equal to any of those women, but to be the protector, the superhero. Subaru is "all this story is about."

I don't know where it's going to go from here. It could still totally subvert my expectations, and break free of its genre conventions. But so far, it hasn't. I guess we'll have to wait and see. It's virtually guaranteed to get a continuation, so at least there's that.

Last edited by Iron Maw on Mon Sep 19, 2016 7:07 am; edited 2 times in total

#844391 wrote:

Is Emilia even the heroine? To me she's the motivation and end goal of the main character/hero but not really a main character herself. She does get some character development throughout the series but it's almost always as a result of Subaru doing something and she develops as a result of that, she never does anything on her own that leads to major changes in the story or in her character. There are also a bunch of other female characters (Rem being the obvious example but others as well) that get more character development and actively participate in shaping events, even more so than Emilia.

Anyway, I loved the series, and hasn't it covered all 8 light novels so far? Just looking at the novels table of contents and illustrations, the anime seems to have covered all existing source materials. If I'm wrong someone please correct me.

This isn't even true, Rem supports Subaru, but she never shapes or drvies anything. She follows his lead post Arc 2. None of the other female characters have had near amount screentime nor do they get anymore development than Emilia. They do get a good amount of characterization, but that's less Emilia.

Frankly If not for her Subaru won't even be here. He probably been dead in a gutter. She also saved his life multiple times, support him emotionally even putting aside her own interests. Hell the reason he was even getting treat for his broken mana-gate as well as being allowed to stay Crusch manor was entirely because of her. A fact Crusch makes clearly to Subaru.

kotomikun wrote:

I Then he has his reunion with Emilia and somehow the whole conversation seems to be about him--not all positive stuff, to be fair, but for all his talk of the 2000 things he loves about her, he doesn't list a single one (quite unlike what Rem did for him). .

You know, the best part about all you're complaints is how you can't even remember correctly what you're complaining about like this part. He said if she 10 things bad about herself he say 2000 things about her. That doesn't he's mean going list off bunch of about her. Subaru could but that isn't the point. He's essentially saying what Rem said to him, that even if she should herself he wouldn't doubt her.

The return of your post just buzzwords and reductive nonsense solely done discredit the show and disconnected any from reality. All because Subaru managed achieved something and grow up learn from is mistakes instead being a cipher for you to bash LN protagonists. You don't seem to care the means, developmental progress he made towards that point or that he wasn't handed anything on a sliver platter, only the fact that he became a hero. You also misunderstand how things like harems actually work. I've actually watched a bunch of harem and I can tell things like don't happen nevermind that romance has been one-sided and also exclusively targeted at 3 characters. Harem my ass, it's triangle and you're salty that your ship didn't win when even she was supporting it.

kryslogan wrote:

His growth - his ability to articulate himself better is itself a victory given his prior breakdown - and tying that to his ability to articulate his feelings to Emilia reminds us that this story is indeed about a boy meeting a girl, pursuing her selfishly, messing things up, then trying to make amends, and finally having the opportunity to move forward with her.

Does that mean we can't desire more character growth for Emilia - of course we can want that but, this is simply how this story begins, why force things and reveal too much too soon?

Why does Emilia cry? She said why: she never believed someone could love her. How much more of an answer does anyone need? To grow up ostracized, feeling unworthy of love, and then having someone give that to you unconditionally would make anyone cry profusely. It is a quintessential aspect of her character that can't be ignored.

Gina Szanboti wrote:

Because even if she still can't quite understand the depth of his feelings, she's seen him back it up with actions, whereas before, as far as she could see, he was mostly about the words (and some actions that belied those words, like breaking a promise and fighting out of his own ego). Yes, he'd risked his life before at the loot house, but that just looked like he got in over his head when things went south, whereas his recent actions showed he knew the risks going in and acted anyway.

If that's not enough, consider that the recent events were much more harrowing for her than what led up to their fight at the capital. Call it the Bridge Effect if you like, but after all that, most people would be ready to burst into tears at that point. Smile

Btw, is it just me, or did Subaru steal that 10 vs 2000 things idea from Rem? Bastard. Smile

All of this. I'm rather disturbed some are still trying to twist Subaru's feelings for Emilia into something it's not even after that has happened and fact he apologized to her. To begin you don't decided who fall i love or when. It's an irrational emotion that often starts from something small and grows from there and it's heavy dependent on the individual. His feelings for her were never wrong, it was fact he was back then partily using as a way to justify his self-worth and pride instead doing it because he genuinely care about her. All that which got stripped in ep 14-18 to point then laid bare his feelings for her to Rem. From then on he stopped caring about that, to swallowed his pride threw himself into hell he witnessed when he confronted the Witch Cult because he cared about her.

Someone who went helped him and others without any obligations, who was completely shunned by society because of her birth and someone who people refuse to see herself instead of remnant of some bygone era. He's not going through this crap because of some dumb idea of being her White Knight but because as someone who has personally benefited from her good will far more than he deserved, she in turn deserves a chance to be loved, respected and to be seen for who she is rather then perceived as what she might be.

I actually agree with some of kotomikun's points: the bits about female characters getting sidelined or downplayed (you only have to look as far aback as this forum's discussion on Crusch's congratulations for that), the brisk pace that the last third seems to have gone through to make up for lost time after Subaru's breakdown, and it does seem to have heavy shades of otaku wish fulfillment fantasies towards the very end. Add to that list my own personal gripes that the issues with Julius were wrapped up so very quickly compared to the overwhelming animosity Subaru had for him, and that a lot of Wilhelm's lines are translated to or actually mean something kind of chauvinistic; I am hoping "nothing can stop a man on his way to see a woman" was just a clumsy translation of something more graceful.

That's not to say that it doesn't buck certain trends really well: the breakdown, the candidate's refusals to help Subaru where ordinarily they would be granted, the no-pressure confession, etc., but I do think a lot of what will make or break Re:Zero as a genre-bucking show for me will be where it goes from here, given that myself and others are concerned that it seems to be shaping up to be more generic. And that doesn't mean that I need to see Subaru hanging from the rafters or anything next season if and/or when we get a second season. But I would like to see him make more mistakes--not Death-by-Return-level ones, just small ones that show he's still on his way to becoming the person he wants to be. That, and I want to see the care that went into crafting Subaru's character get spread around some more to the other characters; they need some love. Anime hyper

Those oils in Otto's carriage really came in handy didn't it? Very Happy

I wanted to make another reply but if I did whiskeyii would feel compelled to sue me for plagiarism.

Apart from Re:Zero being a strong contender for anime of the year, I'd be quite surprised if anything got over it in the "race" for the title.

The reason, is that I'd say "anime of the year" is more a symbolic title than a literal comparison step by step on quality. There could be better anime like Showa Genroku Rakugo Shinju, a comparison which I'm not sure of since it was my cup of tea (although I'm waiting to watch it again some time later), but that doesn't make them stand as the anime of the year, if you know what I'm going for?

Re:Zero was not only good, but it was a trip. It was a pretty amazing trip that had us gripping our chars with every episode, had us discussing week after week, combing the episodes for small things we might have missed, looking for secret meanings and possible yet crazy theories. This is the main reason I'm quite certain Re:Zero will "get" anime of the year. It's not just the buzz it made, but the kind of buzz and excitement that it made and brought.

That's how I feel about the "anime of the year" thing, at least. Kind of like how I personally consider MAL ratings to end with 9/10, since that's excellent, and a 10/10 means that the work is a masterpiece, smth that has deeper, extra meaning to just its overall quality and goes into a sort of "S category, after A."

Last edited by Iron Maw on Mon Sep 19, 2016 9:48 am; edited 1 time in total

whiskeyii wrote:

I actually agree with some of kotomikun's points: the bits about female characters getting sidelined or downplayed (you only have to look as far aback as this forum's discussion on Crusch's congratulations for that), the brisk pace that the last third seems to have gone through to make up for lost time after Subaru's breakdown, and it does seem to have heavy shades of otaku wish fulfillment fantasies towards the very end. Add to that list my own personal gripes that the issues with Julius were wrapped up so very quickly compared to the overwhelming animosity Subaru had for him, and that a lot of Wilhelm's lines are translated to or actually mean something kind of chauvinistic; I am hoping "nothing can stop a man on his way to see a woman" was just a clumsy translation of something more graceful.

I would agree if that was actually happened and Subaru didn't have make effort to reach out this people, understand what they and made sure he wasn't the only one benefiting. What Crusch said about was the truth was futher echoed by Wilhelm. They were able to accomplished their long sought after goals much quicker then would otherwise have thanks his knowledge which cost him his own life. It's wasn't to downplayed her but to acknowledge Subaru especially because as she said back when most of army losing hope to despair despite being the weakest in the among everyone there he displayed the most bravery by not giving up when the odds where stacked against him. You trying to derive something negative from simple gratitude and admiration showed to her even a weak person can do great things all because it was direct at protagonist. It's not fair and far from wishfullment which based on world bending backwards for the MC with him ever having to struggle or face rejection.

It's the samething with Wilhelm's comment which has nothing inherently offensive about it. This comes from a guy who says chivalry is dead and taught Crusch how to wield a sword in the LN. The meaning in his comment applies to either gender. For someone who been deep in love once before, he defended others who feel the same.

As for Julius, Subaru never had overwhelming animosity for him for to begin and his heel turn to him wasn't immediate which is why Felix to told to now try truy befriend him with the past behind them. Subaru's dislike of him was petty to start with and more out of internal issues and he admitted it. Julius himself did his best to be civil and admitted his faults. Subaru himself started to warm up to him after that because Julius could berates him instead and played to his caricatured image of him. It one of things that showed Subaru maturing in how he talked to people and dealt things he may of initially liked ti achieved something.

Must be excruciating painful for Rem's fanboys to watch that lengthy scene between Subaru and Emilia. Overall, I don't like this all that much. It takes too much screen time away from main girl Emilia.

whiskeyii wrote:

Hiroki not Takuya wrote:

As to the "Death Note" use, the left page has "eh" and "so" in hiragana and the right page kanji looks like they were going for one that means "villain" or "disaster". Not sure if they meant "eso" as that is "gangrene". Confused

Took a gander at reddit; according to them, the author confirmed on Twitter that Subaru wrote "owari" or "the end" in the in-universe language.

Sources (if you can read Japanese): https://twitter.com/nezumiironyanko/status/777542682616864768
https://twitter.com/nezumiironyanko/status/777542882785845249

Thanks very much for this! I was thinking of trying to decipher the in-universe writing as it seemed like a distortion of hiragana similar to what was done in DanMachi, now I guess I'll have to (unless someone beat me to it)...

@xyz, I'm one of those fanboys, but I'm still happy for Emilia-tan and Subaru because his infatuation is still definitely groundless and Emilia similarly hasn't had the interaction needed to form a real love relationship so they will probably understand that someday and Subaru will realize he and Rem have a love relationship based on reality and will end up as a couple...

xyz wrote:

Must be excruciating painful for Rem's fanboys to watch that lengthy scene between Subaru and Emilia. Overall, I don't like this all that much. It takes too much screen time away from main girl Emilia.

Sure Rem didn't get the guy, but Rem fans such as myself can take solace in the fact that she has won the internet, if CR's recently released poll is any indication

xyz wrote:

Must be excruciating painful for Rem's fanboys to watch that lengthy scene between Subaru and Emilia. Overall, I don't like this all that much. It takes too much screen time away from main girl Emilia.

Enh, I was more frustrated by the lack of buildup to the big reunion. While Rem was actively in the picture kicking butt and winning our hearts Emilia spent over half the series off screen sitting in her palace being sad. I would like to like Emilia but I don't know a damned thing about her except that Subaru thinks she's hot. Makes saying 2000 good things about her hard when he doesn't even know what her favorite color is.

Iron Maw wrote:

Frankly If not for her Subaru won't even be here. He probably been dead in a gutter.

I assumed from context, you're referring to Emilia, if I'm wrong, please let me know. If so, we can't say this for certain. I haven't read any of the source material, but UNLESS we assume Emilia=Satella (the witch, which admittedly, I do) then we can't say Emilia "truly" has ever "saved his life" since he magically revives each time. She has clearly made things more "comfortable" for him, but that's not the same thing and Rem has also made efforts to do that.

I was happy with the season finale, and I am GLAD that it ends in a way that you COULD stop here and be somewhat satisfied. As a fan of many other LN adaptions, I'm annoyed how many end with "and then there's so much MORE material in the books" kind of endings, and I'd hate it at least twice as much if it were a clear cliffhanger kind of thing.

Really, my only issue with the finale is that the things with Betelgeuse wraps up too "quickly" (or two slowly, as one may prefer) ie. pacing for the end. I think this was done to hit the episode count. The big issue is that all the previous "issues" take several iterations for Subaru to figure out and work all the angles. The final possession instead happens once and is resolved quickly in the second loop. It makes the final loop iteration feel a bit superfluous. I love the solution to the problem, and I also appreciate that Subaru is shocked how "easily" it works, but it does leave the viewer feeling like there was more to develop there which I think it mainly a function that all the other loops have multiple iterations instead of just one. I think it would have been better served having the solution just be worked out during the original iteration (in episode 24) and then spending the finale just doing final story resolution. That'd give the Emilia+Subaru relationship more time to breathe and not leave the Betelgeuse "battle" feeling both abbreviated AND excessive.

Also, for anyone noting Emilia's role and notoreity, I think this is worth noting (especially the final 10 secs):
http://www.crunchyroll.com/rezero-starting-life-in-another-world-shorts/episode-7-petit-7-from-zero-717873

Great, now that this is finally over I can start binge watching it.

DAMN IT!!!!!(Subaru yell) I didn't see those poll buttons at all. OK zrnzle500 lets move the poll here then...Annoyingly, Infuriatingly, Inconceivably, Unjustifiably, Totally, Totally,Totally,Totally,Totally WRONG it is that Betelgeuse Romanee-Conti wasn't shown love, ardent love, unconditional love, beautiful love by CR viewers...(smiles) How truly slothful they are... Twisted Evil

Here's my favorite character list in order

1. Rem- My Waifu, go away Subaru
2. Felt- Go get'em! Knock down those a-hole aristocrats
3. Beatrice- A "Sama" should do, I suppose...
4. Petra- A beautiful girl with a big heart
5. Puck- Kitten-soft fur, loving heart, baddest ass
6. Margrave Roswaal Mathers- Do you even know~wwwww~ what a Ma~aaargrave is?
7. Wilhelm von Astrea- Next baddest ass but a lover too Crying or Very sad

8. Elsa Granhiert- One of the more interesting characters who should have a back-story
9. Crusch Karsten- A German woman of honor, my Husbando?
10. Felix Argyle- It takes guts to look like that and be a guy (or are you??)
11. Pearlbaton Twins- Cute little warriors!
12. Ricardo- Could be popular in Latin America
13. Emilia- That Silly Girl, but still should have an interesting back-story. Get over Subaru
14. Subaru- If you're supposed to be me, I don't want to be you
15. Ram- Ramu,Ramu! Did you hear you're sister is truly wonderful??
16. Reinheard von Astrea- A good guy but not very interesting
17. Priscilla- A jerk with a skirt
18. Julius- Another jerk, but redeemable (should have higher placement?)
19. Aldebaran- Wouldn't want to forget you
20. Otto- Lovable throw-away character, don't worry I won't hurt you

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