Forum - View topicNEWS: Kodomo no Jikan Kickstarter Meets Goal
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Fel Temp Reparatio
Posts: 14 |
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I think people are talking past each other due to assumptions on how to deal with a piece of media. Watch this video on The Thermian Argument if you want to get everyone on the same page. |
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Polycell
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Watching that video, it's clear he completely rejects any form of contextualization as a "Thermian argument" because it might damage his surface-level criticism. If you had a man in platemail and a woman in tights(which superheros lifted from acrobats), he'd probably dismiss any claim of them having two different fighting styles because the author could've made them have the same and thus dressed them the same. That he didn't offer any real examples that weren't torture porn says a lot about his point of view.
Note that I'm not trying to inject myself into the actual argument; it's just your video is shit. |
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Halko
Posts: 107 |
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Holy shit that video has issues. They point out how its all fantasy and doesnt exist and condemn it because its somehow effecting reality and is bad for people. If it doesnt exist it cant possibly directly do anything to anyone and in order for something to be wrong it must DIRECTLY do something. Creating a fantasy that has some elements people dont agree with is perfectly fine. Creating said orc rape fantasy setting as said in the video is perfectly fine and ok as there are no actual orcs in reality raping people nor does it directly brainwash anyone into doing it. If that were the case any and every slasher film or exploitation film ever made is somehow immoral and should be illegal. You dont have to justify art. You dont have to justify freedom of speech and expression. If you dont like what you see dont watch it.
The entire argument against these kinds of things is a simple "I dont like it so its TOTALLY WRONG AND IMMORAL AND NEEDS TO BE BANNED!" Its all a giant joke. I dont like rap but you dont see me out with a sign calling for it to all be removed from stores and its creators jailed. You dont have to like something you just have to acknowledge that it has a right to exist. It was a nice touch for him to be wearing those problem glasses though. |
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enurtsol
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I think ya missed the point of that video. The video doesn't make a point whether something is immoral, illegal, or shouldn't be watched or whatever. The video doesn't make any moral judgement of that at all. Rather, the point of the video is whether the in-story justification of what happens in fictional media invalidates the critique of why what happens is put there by the author in the first place. Last edited by enurtsol on Mon Jul 04, 2016 7:39 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Fel Temp Reparatio
Posts: 14 |
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He doesn't say any of these things. Try actually paying attention to the video. it's about what meaningful criticism of a work of literature is and isn't. Criticism is not inherently a call for banning something nor a statement that the thing being criticized causes bad behavior. |
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Fel Temp Reparatio
Posts: 14 |
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He's promoting exactly the opposite of a surface level reading. He's saying that a justification that only makes sense in a fictional universe (i.e. this person sucking on her friend's breast isn't sexual because neither of the characters, whose "thoughts" are entirely controlled by the author, thought it was sexual) does not override the fact that that's a choice that an author deliberately made, and that the reasons for that choice are what's actually important. Maybe another good comparison is stuff like sexism in fantasy settings. You'll see a lot of fantasy authors argue that they're keeping things "historic," which doesn't really hold water as an explanation when they didn't care about the historicity of magic and dragons. It's perfectly fair to ask something like "Why was sexism so much more important to you than all the other things you changed from history?" And you've probably seen people do that. I've done it, too. But here's the thing: I've also actually seen an author give a really good defense of sexism in their setting. It was in either a forward or afterward to Ursula K. Leguin's Tombs of Atuan. The short version is that she was actually communicating something about sexism, what it does to people, etc. There may still be criticism to be had, but the discussion of "Why did she have sexism of this sort in the work, what does it mean, and what can we learn from this?" is much, much more important than something like "What in universe factors led to Kargish culture turning out that way?" |
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DangerMouse
Posts: 3984 |
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Excellent, glad it made it!
Yeah, it's impressive. |
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Halko
Posts: 107 |
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To those that replied to my last post I'd just like to say that while the video doesn't outwardly state that it wants to ban or remove something directly the implication is very much there. If something can't self justify itself in some way shape or form your essentially saying that anything that isn't 100% rooted in whatever perception of reality a person has shouldn't exist. It's an attack on fantasy and imagination itself. You don't have to and shouldn't have to justify something that clearly isn't reality on reality's terms. Saying that not doing so invalidates its plot process is as simple as saying it shouldn't exist.
Besides the guy in the video is a pretty big narcissist if he thinks he can just make up a new logical fallacy out of thin air when what he's trying to base is judgement on literally doesn't rely on real world logic. The video is a joke. |
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Redbeard 101
Oscar the Grouch
Forums Superstar ![]() Posts: 16941 |
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Because the moment we lock a thread prematurely or do not allow discussion a chance to take place people will bitch about us being tyrannical and not allowing them to post their opinions. First amendment, freedom of speech, Murica!!! and all that. Plus the fact is we at ANN value letting people speak their mind. Provided they do it CIVILLY. Which granted yes many cannot do. Even if it's for a show or manga we don't personally like, or an opinion we don't agree with. In this case it's a manga, it's real, and there are people who want to discuss it who enjoy it. Simple as that. I personally am not one of them but just as this is not what I enjoy I know many of the T&A magical school shows I like as guilty pleasures many do not. To each their own. If the trolls and loud mouths show up then we mods deal with it. If the situation is deemed too far gone or too hostile we lock the thread. It is all a hassle and time consuming for us but it comes with the job. Not allowing discussion to at least have a chance to take place at all though is something that will NEVER happen here. If any of us mods even tried that I guarantee you all the tea in China Zac or Tempest would step in and that mod would possibly loose their moderator powers. We strive to allow people to discuss the topics they like provided they follow the rules here. The main reason why threads on certain topics end more often than not in locks and warnings is because some users simply cannot act like adults and let others be. They simply HAVE to soapbox and lecture others instead of simply avoiding topics that do not interest them. Why should we punish those who are following the rules and limit their chances for discussion because of the bad behavior of others? That's not fair. On another note coming in here to simply poke at the topic and complain about it being open, while adding nothing to the actual discussion, is also not very helpful. It only fans the flames and given your specific complaint is sort of a self fulfilling prophecy situation. |
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Angel Investor
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Everyone here is foaming at the mouth about whether or not ecchi content is, or should be, contextually justified, but am I seriously the only one surprised to find out that the author of KnJ is in fact a woman? If you look at other popular franchises with loli fanservice like Dance in the Vampire Bund, Black Bullet and Monogatari, all of those have been written by male authors. I wonder if there would be this much backlash if a male author made a manga with shota fanservice.
As for the whole ecchi argument, I think it's pretty damn stupid. Yes, there are risque scenes in an ecchi manga that may or may not titillate the reader. And yes, those scenes can at the same time work in the context of the story to reveal new aspects of the characters, move the story forward, create tension / drama, etc. |
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jenthehen
![]() Posts: 835 Location: Cincinnati, Ohio |
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Having read a lot of this manga (scanlations), I don't think it's surprising the author is a woman. I don't think a man would have the same understanding of female puberty and sexual awakening. Not to mention the depth in which she gets into the two adult woman teachers' thoughts and feelings. |
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championferret
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As someone who has actually read this entire series and who can safely say it makes my skin crawl, I still maintain it isnt outright porn/lolicon. It's just a very disappointing psychological story that could have been a great exploration of a disturbed child's mind but spoiler[instead she literally ends up banging the teacher but its ok guys! there was a time skip! And its ok that the teacher had feelings for her before then because she SEDUCED him, the little whore! barf. Seriously man that ending made me want to retract every single defense I'd ever made for the series.]
but my personal irks about the series aside I mainly just came in to say that the Australian dude who got arrested for simpsons porn had actually been busted previously for actual, real child porn and was on some kind of good behaviour trial. I'm not saying simpsons porn is obscene enough to justify him blowing that, but the point is that wasnt what he was being arrested for and it gets a little tiring seeing it come up all the time as 'evidence' that australia would send anyone to jail over simpsons porn. So I doubt this would be actually illegal in any western country unless it was actual lolicon porn outright, although granted there are plenty of pages that would be awfully hard to explain out of context. EDIT- I've seen the japanese volumes of it at Kinokuniya in Sydney, so there's that. |
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jenthehen
![]() Posts: 835 Location: Cincinnati, Ohio |
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Thanks for your honest assessment. I actually never finished the manga, but I knew generally how it ended. I kind of chalk it up to Japanese sensibilities / culture, tbh, moreso than any lolicon thing. Kind of like how Bunny Drop ends ... or, honestly, how there are a lot of little weird seemingly sexist moments/commentary in a lot of anime and manga that just rub me the wrong way. |
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championferret
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Considering the less than positive opinion the average Japanese person has on otaku anime/moe, let alone more lolicon flavoured stuff, 'it's just cultural differences!!!' is literally my least favourite excuse in the world when it comes to this kind of stuff. I'm not saying people arent allowed to like it or even that they're bad people for liking it, but if people would stop trying to pretend its some sacred cultural thing mere westerners cannot comprehend and this fact instantly neutralizes anything 'iffy' about it, that'd be great.
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Halko
Posts: 107 |
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spoiler[Well technically they don't truly do the deed as it starts to hurt her too much so they stop. That's splitting hairs at that point though. I found it kind of cute that after all the big talk and strutting she couldn't follow through.]
But in the end this is all just up to how your tolerance to these things is. I have a pretty big tolerance level for stuff like this so it didn't bother me too much. It's all just fantasy so whats the big deal you know? Gotta stay open minded about stuff. I can totally understand it making people uneasy though but that's almost the point of something like this much like Lolita when it was first printed. You can't play it safe with themes and events forever. There has to be some kind of controversy every once in a while. |
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