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Ten Years of Death Note: Is Light The Bad Guy?


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Animegomaniac



Joined: 16 Feb 2012
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2016 12:16 pm Reply with quote
Light was going to become a villain regardless; It was just a matter of time until he got a bit of power for him to use and abuse because he knows he's so good he's above the system. But for a guy so supposedly intelligent, I still can't figure out how he believed he'd improve the world with a device that could only kill people. Well, control them and then kill them. That sort of thinking always ends up as "Well, the first problem with the world is people. And now that I look at it, second and third as well. The world should be glad it has me to sort it all out." Amazingly, he got to that point by the first episode.

If you want an example of actual "good intentions" leading to ruin, I'd suggest Rui from Gatchaman Crowds. To compare the core of their two characters, separate from any supernatural power given to them, is one of certitude versus doubt.

Guess which is which. I'm not a fan of people who absolutely know what's perfectly right for the world. Some people really are just born evil- like Light, yes; If your first reaction to anything is what face you should show to the people who know you then you're better at resembling a human being, not being one- but only become able to act on their desires through sheer luck.

I have actual sympathy for Misa because while she's crazy, she is at least human with those "emotion" things. Feelings, that's it. Without Kira, she would have been fine... well, harmless to anyone but herself and her intended target of those feelings. But my sympathy comes in because as much as she loved Light, he not only didn't love her in return... not because of what she is but because of what he is... he used her primarily as another death note. And she knew it.

The only real feeling I got from the series was a touch of sadness when it was implied that Misa spoiler[killed herself when she couldn't face to live in a world without Light.]. No karmic retribution for her, no great revenge scheme from her, just quietly fading away like she doesn't matter.

Also, unlike Light, I'd say she was only "evil" because of the her Death Note and Kira. She had neither the ambition or inclination to do anything like mass murder/ mass "urban renewal" on her own. At most, double murder-suicide and considering her taste in men, it'd probably leave the world a better place.

Oh yeah, the series got really boring when L died. Not that he was the hero of this story but at least he...

Wait, he was kind of a villain too. One of his first moves against Kira was "Ha, made you kill them instead of me!". Worthy of a expert chessmaster but not exactly "Man of the Year" material.
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Azumi14



Joined: 09 Dec 2015
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2016 12:47 pm Reply with quote
Light and Misa killed without a conscience. Light destroy friendship and family all for his ego.
I cannot justify Misa reason for murder. Being stupid and loving Light does not justify murder. To me the Death Note acts like a drug that pulls the inner evil or darkness of a person. Without the Death note I do believe that Light and Misa would never be vigilantes of evil justice.
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Spoofer



Joined: 03 Aug 2003
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2016 3:33 pm Reply with quote
Spike Terra wrote:
While I thought Light was a great villain, I often thought that L was a terrible hero. L doesn't solve crimes out of some moral obligation but out of a way to kill boredom. L will use any method to solve crimes and he doesn't seem to have any regard for human life at all. I have always felt that if L had come across the death note before Light, that he would have become the villain instead. But he wouldn't be a crazy cult leader with a god complex, he would be a more cleaner and less restrained version of the Punisher.


I think that's instead what makes L such a compelling hero. It's been ages since I've seen the show and I have a terrible memory, but... L certainly seemed to have characteristics that could place him somewhere along the high-functioning autism spectrum. Related and on top of which, he's intensely focused and certainly derives satisfaction from challenging himself to solve puzzles and to engage in battles of wits, all in order to curb his own ennui (similar to Sherlock Holmes, no?). He doesn't see a problem with using a prisoner condemned to execution later that night as a guinea pig to test Kira's abilities, nor with all the other actions I've since forgotten which he employed throughout the series. The difference though is, even if it's pretty clear that he himself doesn't quite understand empathy and morality as well as (or along the same lines as) most of his peers, he seems to be aware of that fact.

Light thought he knew better than all of society, and chose to exert his will and his perverse vision of justice upon the entire world. L willingly sought out cooperation with society's existing framework of justice throughout his cases. Light was born into the lineage of police authority, but actively rejected their idealism and the boundaries of their role in society, even as he was working right alongside them. L, even though he had been distanced as a result of struggling to truly empathize with others in society, devoted his life to entrusting and offering his services to society's existing guardians. He used them as an extension of his own investigations, but he also willingly chose living, breathing, thinking people with their own sense of right and wrong, and trusted in them to keep his own actions in check. Light grew power-crazed while utilizing a mere tool that would enable and obey his every command.

In these ways, despite having traits in common, L served as the polar opposite to Light, and was the one to recognize and supplement his own deficits by believing and entrusting in society in order to slowly come out from the shadows, offer what he could, accept his own limits, and ultimately become the true light of humanity in the show.
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Spike Terra
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Joined: 21 Mar 2016
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2016 4:46 pm Reply with quote
Spoofer wrote:


In these ways, despite having traits in common, L served as the polar opposite to Light, and was the one to recognize and supplement his own deficits by believing and entrusting in society in order to slowly come out from the shadows, offer what he could, accept his own limits, and ultimately become the true light of humanity in the show.


That's a very compelling case for L's character. My hats off to you Spoofer.
I too have a pretty terrible memory of the source material. Since we're on the subject, what did you think of Near and Mellow? Near was more like L2 while I felt that Mellow was more destructive than helpful as an investigator.
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Ammonite



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2016 5:13 pm Reply with quote
[Post deleted.]

Last edited by Ammonite on Thu Aug 04, 2016 8:43 am; edited 1 time in total
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rinmackie



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2016 6:22 pm Reply with quote
Considering the way the direction this thread has been going in, I know I might as well be talking to a wall. But the thing that really bugs me about this debate is that almost everyone not only thinks that Light was a bad guy but he was always was that way. Actually, we didn't really get much of a chance to meet Light before he picked up the Death Note and started using it. I know, he seemed sort of like a psycho from the get-go but the qualities Light possessed are not that unusual for someone of his age. In other words, there are lots of teen/young adults like Light in the world but I wouldn't say they were "evil" just immature. Of course, some of them grow up and some don't; we don't know what kind of person Light would have become if he hadn't found the Death Note. Plus I do believe that the Death Note did corrupt him. Also, it was clear that Light was considered likable by his peers; he had friends, even girlfriends. He was smart and athletic as well. If fact, one of my fears concerning the American adaptation is that they will turn him into some "pathetic loser type" who uses the Death Note to get revenge.

Anyway, I don't really like the idea of some people being "born evil". Stop and think about the implications of that, if it's true what should we do with such people? How can we identify them? Maybe if Light had continued his campaign long enough he would have started killing children as well. Bratty kids and juvenile delinquents. Who knows, maybe he did get that far, the show stopped going into detail after awhile. While I do think what Light did was evil, I can see why he went in the direction he did. In his world, there was no room for compassion and mercy. And no shades of grey, just black and white.
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Spoofer



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2016 7:09 pm Reply with quote
The Shinigami in Shinigamiland (or whatever) all had Death Notes of their own, but the use of them had long been considered passé because there was no challenge or excitement in it. Ryuk, bored out of his skull, had the idea to drop his extra DN into the human world to see what would transpire. In the first episode it's explicitly stated that while Death Notes had occasionally made their way to the human world before, Light was the only one who had written the sheer volume of names as he had in the first few days. Ryuk was first surprised, and then mightily impressed, by Light's reaction to his presence and his rationale for using the Death Note. He realized how entertaining it was going to be to watch the result of a teenager's conceited ambition when granted unmitigated power.

Ryuk made it clear that entertainment was all he was in it for, as well as to witness how far Light's ambition would take him and the unpredictability of the chain of events he would surely put in motion. The scope of what Light immediately decided to do with the DN, and how easily he had decided to cast away whatever reservations he might have otherwise had, was far beyond what any human had ever decided to do with the power of the DN before. Omoshiroi!

If the DN had some sort of supernatural ability to corrupt an individual, it would have defeated Ryuk's reason to be entertained, and would instead have been as passé and predictable as if a Shinigami itself had been using it. No, what Ryuk enjoyed most (aside from apples, obviously) was simply watching the darkness within the human condition corrupt itself when granted absolute power, and where better to drop the DN than a high school campus full of turbulent, arrogant, disillusioned youth? The narrative of the show and its varied exploration of human nature would have been meaningless if Light's use of power was hand-waved away as a curse rather than an exploration of the potential for darkness and arrogance within man.


Last edited by Spoofer on Mon Mar 21, 2016 7:47 pm; edited 3 times in total
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vashfanatic



Joined: 16 Jun 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2016 7:11 pm Reply with quote
TarsTarkas wrote:
She was more than not nice. She was a murderer also. By law enforcement standards she was an knowing accomplice to Light. She was also a murderer of people she knew were innocent of any crime. Think it was safe to say she is evil.

Law enforcement were fighting a human being that had god like powers, and if that god like human being could identify them, they were as good as dead. I think any normal human being could sympathize with the police in this case, over Misa a murderer and an accomplice to Light.

First, I was using a sarcastic understatement....which does not come across well on the internet, I know. But to me, Misa is more...deeply, deeply messed up, wile Light who knows exactly what he's doing. Hence, when I said I have "more sympathy for her" I meant relative to Light, who doesn't have her excuses, like the trauma of murdered parents. He's doing this because he's bored, not because he's suffered.

That said, I believe in rights for people even after they've been convicted of a crime, and what L does to Misa during the Yotsuba group arc were a violation of her rights, regardless of the murders she's committed. Ide walked out, and I would have too.
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TarsTarkas



Joined: 20 Dec 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2016 7:33 pm Reply with quote
vashfanatic wrote:

That said, I believe in rights for people even after they've been convicted of a crime, and what L does to Misa during the Yotsuba group arc were a violation of her rights, regardless of the murders she's committed. Ide walked out, and I would have too.


They were fighting a god, for all intents and purposes. One little mistake and they are all dead. The stakes are too high, even for such rights.
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Spoofer



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2016 7:39 pm Reply with quote
Spike Terra wrote:
Since we're on the subject, what did you think of Near and Mellow? Near was more like L2 while I felt that Mellow was more destructive than helpful as an investigator.


Eh, I wasn't Nearly as invested in that part of the show as I was with the Light/L dynamic, and like I said it's been far too long since I've watched it to really have an articulated opinion, beyond the obvious of the duo representing a new pair of displaced youth and how they each chose to deal with their pain and frustrations in our harsh world.

I had somehow miraculously avoided all DN spoilers until I watched the show a number of years back, and was really moved and impressed by the show's decision to have L fall in his battle of wits against Kira, after tragically developing a lot as a person due to willingly developing a friendship with the facade that was Light. Some sort of direction afterward similar to the one Ohba ended up choosing was of course necessary, but what he ended up writing (assuming it's similar in the manga) still seemed rather contrived and wasn't Nearly as compelling for me as the first stretch of the story, not that it didn't have its merits or issues to contemplate.

There's stuff about Near and Mellow that I liked, but eh... They were certainly worth sticking with in order to get to the ending that we got in the anime, which I thought was quite well done for reasons alluded to or spelled out in the actual article. I haven't read the manga yet, but I'm interested in seeing how Ohba's original story ended as well.
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rinmackie



Joined: 05 Aug 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2016 8:07 pm Reply with quote
I don't think the Death Note ALONE corrupted Light but he had the personality flaws that made it easier and possible. I just don't want to believe that only Light could have done it. Now if Ryuk said Light was the first person to take it that far but we don't know how under what circumstances or how many times he had previously dropped the book. Plus i'm not sure how trustworthy Ryuk's word is either. Also, I do know that one of the fan theories was that Light became a shinigami himself after death. That rumor may have been debunked, I'm not sure. But it does make sense since one of the rules of the Death Note was that whoever used it would be shut out of both Heaven and Hell. If it is true, then there have people who used the Death Note, perhaps quite extensively. Though Light may still have been the most successful ones, but we don't know exactly how he well he did compare to other users. Mikami, for example, had no problem using the Death Note. But he only did as Light told him and I don't believe he ever took any initiative on his own. But if he had been the first, I think he would have been as destructive and power mad as Light. However, I don't think he would have lasted as long and would have been quickly caught because he lacked Light's cleverness. But if was obvious the Mikami was messed up from an earlier age. But he was the inverse of Light; he was bullied and didn't seem to have a privileged background. He also had a rigid black and white worldview. He didn't mourn his mother's death because she wasn't as sympathetic to his standing up to the bullies at school.

My point is there may have been other users who were as corrupted as Light but had different priorities, such as revenge or were caught before they got too far. Also, there's the issue of the "shinigami eyes", which shortens your lifespan by half. Maybe the other users went for that option and had their life cut short before they could complete their goals.
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leafy sea dragon



Joined: 27 Oct 2009
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2016 1:00 am Reply with quote
jl07045 wrote:
Cynics distrust any good intentions and think that everyone acts out of self-interest. That would include Light. Why would they side with him? They know that he's either an asshole or will never accomplish his goal, because he'd eventually have to kill too many for the society to function. Where do you get the idea that a cynic necessarily thinks a person deserves to die for wrongdoing though? He just thinks that it's in man's nature.
What is more likely that people with sociopathic tendencies would agree with what Light is doing, and egotism goes hand-in-hand with sociopathy much more than cynicism does.


What I was thinking was that a cynic would think that people are so bad that they'd deserve to die due to the cynic's lack of belief that people can be redeemed, and that they would identify with Light because he does what they would want to do. You know, the idea that the world is rotten, that all people of power are corrupt, and that the world is better with them permanently removed from existence.

But I guess I'm just confusing cynicism with pessimism, or just plain angst.

TarsTarkas wrote:
She was more than not nice. She was a murderer also. By law enforcement standards she was an knowing accomplice to Light. She was also a murderer of people she knew were innocent of any crime. Think it was safe to say she is evil.


I'd say Misa is evil, but only because Light is evil. She is so infatuated with Light that she'll try to align herself with wherever Light stands. As Light is evil, so is Misa.

rinmackie wrote:
Anyway, I don't really like the idea of some people being "born evil". Stop and think about the implications of that, if it's true what should we do with such people? How can we identify them? Maybe if Light had continued his campaign long enough he would have started killing children as well. Bratty kids and juvenile delinquents. Who knows, maybe he did get that far, the show stopped going into detail after awhile. While I do think what Light did was evil, I can see why he went in the direction he did. In his world, there was no room for compassion and mercy. And no shades of grey, just black and white.


Well, Ryuk did passingly mention that the logical conclusion to Light's actions is that Light would be the only person remaining in the world. I'd say that, at least in his later stages, Light kept killing trying to fulfill a quota to basically exert power and control over other people. The fact that he was going after less egregious lawbreakers also hints that Light had run out of big-time criminals to kill, and he would've likely kept making his way down until he just killed people not loyal to him, then people not fanatically loyal to him. And there's no reason to it besides as a continuous show of force, a deterrent of resistance against him.

rinmackie wrote:
Mikami, for example, had no problem using the Death Note. But he only did as Light told him and I don't believe he ever took any initiative on his own. But if he had been the first, I think he would have been as destructive and power mad as Light. However, I don't think he would have lasted as long and would have been quickly caught because he lacked Light's cleverness. But if was obvious the Mikami was messed up from an earlier age. But he was the inverse of Light; he was bullied and didn't seem to have a privileged background. He also had a rigid black and white worldview. He didn't mourn his mother's death because she wasn't as sympathetic to his standing up to the bullies at school.


Of course, Mikami DID quickly get caught anyway even with Light's assistance. In a way, it's because of Light that he got caught, as Mikami attempted to imitate Light's way of thinking as much as possible. Those activities were what made Near and his FBI agents suspicious of him.
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jl07045



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2016 3:31 am Reply with quote
rinmackie wrote:
Considering the way the direction this thread has been going in, I know I might as well be talking to a wall. But the thing that really bugs me about this debate is that almost everyone not only thinks that Light was a bad guy but he was always was that way.

You say that the Death Note corrupted him. Do you have any proof of that apart from the simple observation that Light became more psychotic as time went on? There are naturalistic explanations for that or the time he had amnesia and, since otherwise DN doesn't feature any mind powers or anything of the sort, naturalistic explanations are the way to go.
I don't think there are that many people here who think Evil is something metaphysical. There are evil deeds and there are character traits that in right conditions would cause a person do those deeds. Light has had those character traits since the beginning and finding dn let him exercise his megalomania and sociopathy.
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residentgrigo



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2016 6:57 am Reply with quote
Light wasn´t corrupted by the DN and that was why he worked as a character. He picked it up and BAM off to the races! This is again why the life action telenovela doesn´t work.
Light would have probably started to collected Huey Lewis CDs and fill his fridge with cut apart child prostitutes if "destiny" didn´t fall from heaven. (Spot the reference.)

Misa is an empty inside victim leafy sea dragon. A bit like pre New52 Harley Quinn.
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Akane the Catgirl



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2016 7:06 am Reply with quote
You know, there's a certain logical fallacy I've seen from Kira Apologists that keeps popping up over and over. I could go on about the other Unfortunate Implications, but I chose this particular argument to focus on. This is mostly because it's one of the most common and least sensible things I've seen. It is as follows:

I should not think badly of Light Yagami because his idealogy is morally pure, and therefore, his actions are no longer evil BECAUSE he has a point.

That argument makes no sense to me. By that logic, I should not criticize PETA because they're just trying to save the poor widdle animals, just as Light is trying to save the poor widdle bystanders. PETA (People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals) is an animal rights organization that almost nobody takes seriously due to how their publicity stunts repeatedly undermine any message they want to tell. That is to say that they do such benevolent things such as desecrating the grave of the real life Colonel Sanders, taking a Seeing-Eye dog away from their owner, and euthanzing most of the animals they rescue under pretense that "it would be better that way".

Same goes for Kira Apologists. On Wikipedia's article for Death Note, there is a subsection titled "Copycat crimes and imitations" dedicated to the sorts of antics this part of the fandom does. You might argue that Wikipedia isn't the most accurate source, but when you reach that section, you'll notice it's heavily annotated. All of those cases where people actually made their own real-life Death Notes and attempted to kill people they didn't like? Completely true. THAT is why I do not consider myself a part of the fandom- because I don't want to be associated with a bunch of loonatics.

Too long, didn't read? I don't care how righteous your goals or motivations are; do something illegal, immoral, or outright stupid, and I will actively refuse to take you seriously.

As a bonus, I decided to play a little game. Ever hear of Dr. Hare's Psychopathy Checklist? I'm going to apply all twenty main traits to something that Light has said or done throughout all thirty-seven episodes. Here we go!

1. "Glib and superficial charm": Honors student by day, serial killer by night.

2. "Grandiose self-worth": Declared himself "God of the New World" in Episode One alone.

3. "Need for stimulation and proneness to boredom": Hey, that's how the entire series started!

4. "Pathological lying": If I listed every time he lied to someone, we'd be here for a looooong time.

5. "Conning and manipulativeness": Duh.

6. "Lack of remorse or guilt": I can count the amount of times Light ever felt regret for his actions on one hand. Coincidently, they all happened to be in the first episode.

7. "Shallow effect": L's funeral from the recap movies.

8. "Callousness and lack of empathy": His treatment of Misa is more than enough.

9. "Parasitic lifestyle": Say, did we ever see Light move out?

10. "Poor behavioral controls": That was quite the temper tantrum in the last episode, huh?

11. "Promiscous sexual behavior": No actual sex, but Light pretty much cheats on Misa with Kiyomi Takada. Who's not to say that he gave Misa sex just to keep her loyal to him?

12. "Early behavioral problems": Light is still a teenager when he receives the Death Note for the first time.

13. "Lack of realistic, long-term goals": A perfect utopia without crime is completely impossible without doing some terrible things.

14. "Impulsivity": If Light had just kept his hand off the pen, Lind L. Taylor would have been quietly executed, and Light wouldn't have fallen into L's trap.

15. "Irresponsibility": You really should have kept a better eye on Teru Mikami, Light.

16. "Failure to accept responsibility for own actions": That's pretty much a given.

17. "Many short-term marital relationships": Marriage doesn't apply, but we've seen Light's behavior with Misa and Takada.

18. "Juvenile Delinquency": Of course.

19. "Revocation of conditional release": Potato chip scene, anyone?

20. "Criminal versatility": Yes.

Hmm...that's a full twenty out of twenty. Your "hero" everyone. Join me next time when I put Shogo Makishima through the list!
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