Forum - View topicNintendo Comments on Changes in Western Localization of Fire Emblem Fates
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Galap
Moderator
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There have been multiple problems and deletions across both of these Fire Emblem threads. I'll leave Errinundra to explain his edits, but in general, we are not happy with the way things have been going down in here. If there are any more displays of incivility, ad hominem attacks, or intellectual dishonesty in this thread after this post, the thread will be locked.
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Errinundra
Moderator
 Posts: 6561 Location: Melbourne, Oz |
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@ Renasviel,
There will be times when a mod draws a line in the sand and tells posters to stop. It will be because the posters are becoming unnecessarily combatative. That will always mean that one or other or both posters will feel that their grievances haven't been fully argued. Once that line is drawn, however, the opportunity for a "last word" is gone. Sometimes we just have to cool our heels. Mods included. |
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Parse Error
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I was initially inclined to believe anything beyond objections to the secret drugging of someone's drink was just a lot of overreaction over nothing, but reading the translated conversation actually changed my mind. Let's see...
Character starts out attracted to the same sex. It does not matter that people keep claiming, "we don't really know her actual sexual orientation, only that she finds cute girls attractive," because that attraction is treated as the sole focus. Someone intervenes, by interfering with her body (causing her to ingest a substance without her consent) and mind (altering her perception). This "fixes" her by causing her to choose the "correct" partner for a woman, which is of course a man. Oh, and as for her original orientation, which people like to claim is unknown or was always bisexual:
I prefer imported content to stay intact warts and all, so if I were into video games I would not be able to support removing it as a matter of principle, but I do not find it even remotely mysterious why many people are so angry about how that situation plays out. |
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Stuart Smith
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Er.. that's not what really happens. I think what's confusing a lot of people is context. For one thing, she is never actually "cured" and Kamui's treatment was a dud. She's still weak willed around cute girls. That whole support ends with her running off to spy on the male soldiers to see what they look like that's cute girls before the powder wears off. Also I noticed people seem to skip over the A support entirely in these debates, which is the last support you are able to get if Kamui or Soliel are already married to other people. S supports are limited to 1 per game. Most the time this whole conversation never ends with Kamui and Soleil marrying. When she marries any other guy she does so without any of this stuff happening. If you pair her up with Shigure like I did then they fall in love while he teaches her how to sing and gives her lessons. So if people want to argue about gay conversion they're going to have to address and argue that point for all of her romance routes where Kamui is never involved. -Stuart Smith |
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Parse Error
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It's also never really mattered quite so much in real-world society that some people happen to be attracted to the same sex, provided they don't act on it – or at least if they do at times, still ultimately marry and start a family with someone of the opposite sex. This is exactly the route the scenario in question follows. She may retain her desires internally, but externally someone has steered her to the "natural and proper" way of life.
Well, then those routes aren't relevant to this particular thread, but if the game is so consistent with the "lesbians are just straight women in disguise" mentality, that doesn't exactly make this instance come across any better. |
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Aura Ichadora
 Posts: 2300 Location: In front of my computer |
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Drugging people, on the other hand, I can't agree or accept no matter the circumstances. No matter if it's a fantasy situation like what's being done in this game or to a real life situation such as date rape. And that's why I don't personally understand why people are so set on hating on Nintendo for removing a scene depicting a character being drugged against their will. Yes, the drug or magic powder in question isn't realistic, but placing it in someone's drink is, and that's what's wrong. |
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Mad_Scientist
 SubscriberModerator  Posts: 3011 |
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That analysys was flawed, and was not done in good faith. Niche Gamer had to edit that article at least three times to remove massive factual mistakes. They originally claimed Soleil was straight, that she asked the main character for help (and by "any means possible), and that the character explained to Soleil that he had to give her the drug without her knowing. All of these things were false. TWO of them were directly contradicted by THEIR OWN TRANSLATION in the article itself. And you know what's funny? That article is still factually incorrect. From the article: "The magic eventually wears off, and Soleil is now comfortable around other women" From their own translation, included in the article: "Kamui: How were the results of the special training? Soleil: It was no good. Not much changed. But after I returned from battle, the cute town girls surrounded me. The blood rushed to my head, and when I came to, they were fussing over me. Even though you used that magic powder and gave me that special training. Kamui: Ah, I see." A bit later on: "Soleil: I won’t. I couldn’t succeed with the special training but you tried with all your might to do something for me. I’m very happy because of that. So this isn’t a forced smile. It’s a real one." And isn't it funny how every single one of the four factual errors they spread would have the effect of making the scene less bothersome if true? It's almost like they had an agenda to push! Which of course they did. That agenda was to defend the scene at all costs, even if it meant spreading falsehoods contradicted by their own frigging translation. Most of the blatant falsehoods were removed after they were pointed out, but that doesn't change the fact that their "in-depth analysis" was pretty much just them posting their translation of the scene (which confirmed the previous translation was accurate) and then saying "see? Nothing wrong!"
Do you not understand that the entire point of lesbian conversion stories is that the lesbian marries or ends up with a guy at the end? If she didn't, it wouldn't be a conversion story.
Funny. First you chide other people for not actually looking at the conversation, then admit you've actually never looked at it yourself and are just going on "what you heard".
It's entirely possible for one scene to evoke the idea of gay conversion without the other scenes showing that. Characters and games aren't always written consistently. But I actually have argued about the other marriages and why they support the idea that Soleil is lesbian, in depth. *Sigh* At least this thread was a bit less exhausting than the other, though maybe that's because I'm too burnt out by my giant reply there to post as much here. Also, I realize now seeing the mod comments in this thread I probably got a bit too heated in the other, so my apologies for that. EDIT: One more thing. I'm not gonna copy everything from my giant post in the other thread here, but I will show you the support conversation snippets I posted there. These are all bits of supports that are NOT the one with the drugging/etc, but they give you a bit of an idea of how Soleil, and her sexuality, is portrayed. SOLEIL: Don't be silly. There's no way a boy could be this cute. I... I can't hold myself back anymore... Fufufufufufu... FOLEO: I... I have to escape... Waaaaaahhh! Later on... SOLEIL: I can't leave you alone when you're this cute! I won't do anything scary, so just trust me and give in. FOLEO: Y-You're lying... you're looking at me the same way a wild animal looks at its prey... Later SOLEIL: Prove that you're a boy. I'll give up if you do that. FOLEO: Yes, but... I do not know how I should prove that... SOLEIL: In that case, I've got a good idea. Just do as I say and we'll have our proof. FOLEO: W-What do I have to do? SOLEIL: Come bathe with me. Or also... Soleil: Can’t you see? Over there… the group of cute girls! Ah, give me a break… how can they possibly be so adorable! Alright, we’re okay for launch! Which route should I pick, I wonder! Ignis: … Hey. What are you planning to do to them? Soleil: Right now, the strategy I’m leaning towards is to creep up on those girls from behind… and embrace one of them as hard as I can! Ufufu… fufufufufu… Just imagining it… makes me so happy I could faint… Ignis: Soleil… you’re making a pretty extreme face there… Soleil: I can’t help it. My entire body is pulsing with pleasure right now! Or maybe Ignis: … Soleil. Are you… chasing after girl’s behinds again? Soleil: What, that’s so rude. It’s not just their rear ends, I chase after the whole package. I like everything about a cute girl, not just one part of their body. This is important, so keep notes. Also Kamui: …….. The thing I saw was… the outline of you and a village girl talking… Soleil: Yeah, what’s wrong with that? Kamui: It’s because what you were saying… was just so incredibly… embarrassing… Soleil: ………. Just what kind of embarrassing thing could I have said to that girl? I have no memory of it at all… Kamui: You said things like… “You’re looking cute again today,” or, “You’re lovably adorable,” and as you said them you got closer… You whispered in her ear, “Your shy and troubled reactions are too much for me to bear”… The final line was, “If I had the chance, I’d drown you in my love…”… And also this (this is the female version of Kamui here, like above. And I mean the actual female version that Soleil can't marry for some reason, not the drug induced hallucination version of the male Kamui that she CAN marry.) Soleil: Truth is, I wanted you to flirt with me. Kamui: Eh? Soleil: But I thought your heart wouldn’t beat for me, unless I cooled down about something. Kamui: Eeeh!? Wanting me to flirt with you… you don’t mean… you planned for me to say something embarrassing!? Soleil: Hm, I don’t know if it was really embarrassing or not, but you definitely flirted with me just now, didn’t you? Kamui: N-N-No way!! If that’s true, I’m telling everyone about your dance! Soleil: Eeeh!? Y-You can’t! That’s off-limits! Kamui: Fufufu. I’ve got the upper hand here. Soleil: Uuuu… On the contrary, I’ll practice a lot, and someday I’ll show you my courtship dance of love…! This is the character people are arguing is actually straight. |
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Stuart Smith
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I think the other routes are relevant to this thread for this reasoning then. They showcase she marries a man without any external interference regardless. While I initially compared her to Kirino's imouto obsession, another forum compared her to Kashima from Gekkan Shoujo Nozaki, which might be more fitting for her flirting. I like the support with her dad when she brags about wooing more girls than him. I think trying to analyze for nuance in a franchise with such blantant over the top anime tropes might get some people disappointed. This is also a franchise with heavy incest tropes as well, which will be heavily censored as well if Awakening is any indication. I really have to question Nintendo of America's decision of marketing this to normal gamers instead of anime fans. -Stuart Smith |
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Mad_Scientist
Subscriber Moderator Posts: 3011 |
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It doesn't take any deep character analysis to see that:
a) Soleil is portrayed as lesbian, or at least someone extremely attracted to girls both sexually and romantically, with basically no interest in guys b) Soleil can only marry guys, despite the above, and despite the fact that two of her marriage scenes specifically reference the fact she doesn't actually like guys c) One of her marriages comes about as the result of a side effect of the main character drugging her without her knowledge and consent and her falling in love with him while in an altered state of mind d) All the above combined could make some people very uncomfortable, and evoke the idea of conversion therapy This isn't some deep, nuanced, highly complicated thing here. It's pretty blatant, obvious stuff. |
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Rensie
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Don't matter, fans wants games to be released in the west as in original form, every change made to accomodate another moral watering down the original content, is despicable (and censorship). So yes, boycott is the best weapon in this capitalistic world where money and profit are more important over everything else. Fight with your wallet! |
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Stuart Smith
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I was thinking more along the lines that the game says she's a girl who likes to sexually harass other girls for fun yuribaiting in comedic ways but she's straight, and I say "Oh one of types, got it" I mean people can argue about this until they're blue in the face but in the end she can only marry guys so that's all that can really be said about her.
-Stuart Smith |
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Mad_Scientist
Subscriber Moderator Posts: 3011 |
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"The game" never says that. The game simply shows her flirting with women. And talking them. And talking about how much she loves them. And talking about how she doesn't like guys. And so on, and so on, in pretty much every scene. Have you actually READ her support conversations? Because I have. I've read every single one of them, more than once. Let me post two snippets again. "Kamui: …….. The thing I saw was… the outline of you and a village girl talking… Soleil: Yeah, what’s wrong with that? Kamui: It’s because what you were saying… was just so incredibly… embarrassing… Soleil: ………. Just what kind of embarrassing thing could I have said to that girl? I have no memory of it at all… Kamui: You said things like… “You’re looking cute again today,” or, “You’re lovably adorable,” and as you said them you got closer… You whispered in her ear, “Your shy and troubled reactions are too much for me to bear”… The final line was, “If I had the chance, I’d drown you in my love…”… " That's straight? "Soleil: Truth is, I wanted you to flirt with me. Kamui: Eh? Soleil: But I thought your heart wouldn’t beat for me, unless I cooled down about something. Kamui: Eeeh!? Wanting me to flirt with you… you don’t mean… you planned for me to say something embarrassing!? Soleil: Hm, I don’t know if it was really embarrassing or not, but you definitely flirted with me just now, didn’t you? Kamui: N-N-No way!! If that’s true, I’m telling everyone about your dance! Soleil: Eeeh!? Y-You can’t! That’s off-limits! Kamui: Fufufu. I’ve got the upper hand here. Soleil: Uuuu… On the contrary, I’ll practice a lot, and someday I’ll show you my courtship dance of love…! " A literal "courtship dance of love" for another girl is straight? And so what if she can marry guys? Again, if she COULDN'T end up with guys, then it wouldn't be lesbian conversion. She HAS to be able to end up with them for it to be that. And some of her confessions with guys specifically reference how she doesn't like guys (except for, for some reasons, the one guy she's marrying). This falls right in with the lesbian conversion "just hasn't met the right guy" trope. Because that is exactly what Soleil is, a lesbian who the game portrays as just "not having met the right guy." Well, except when she's falling in love with a guy as a side effect of drugging. |
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SilverTalon01
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I don't think you can call a character that has romantic relationships with quite a few men but never has one with a woman a lesbian. I'm not saying she is straight, but you're being way too quick to rule out bi. |
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Mad_Scientist
Subscriber Moderator Posts: 3011 |
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When her "romantic" relationships are out of nowhere, sometimes specifically reference the fact that she doesn't like guys in the very scenes where marries a guy, specifically have her say that she'd have to "give up" on any romance with a character if he's a guy, involve nonconsensual drugging in one case, and all revolve in some way or another around her love for girls, I think I can fairly safely say she's a lesbian. And I haven't ruled out that she was bi quickly. I talked about this a lot back when the whole controversy first hit. I researched, and as I've said, read literally every single support conversation she has multiple times. My conclusion that she's a lesbian stuck with a bunch of "cure the lesbian" tropes was made after a lot of thought. I think I linked earlier to a part of a multi-part series I wrote about Fire Emblem Fates where I discuss the whole controversy and why I reached the conclusion that she's lesbian. But hey, I could see an interpretation of her as an extremely lesbian leaning bi woman, I suppose. It seems very unlikely and to clash with the way she is portrayed, but there is a slight bit that could support it. But that interpretation wouldn't really make her character, or the scenes she's in, much better. And as I said, I think it's not as well supported a view as her being a lesbian. |
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Johan Eriksson 9003
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Obviously they can be wrong in debates, but this isn't a situation where it is appropriate for anyone to debate in the first place. We are talking about whether or not a certain piece of media is homophobic or not, an issue that homosexual people are not only experts on, they are quite literary the ones who decide whether or not something is homophobic. They are the ones who know whether or not something is harmful to them. If you hit a pedestrian with your car, you don't start arguing with that person about whether or not you hurt them. Also, I'm throwing away these arguments because they are really freaking bad, not just because they seem to come from straight people. I see people arguing that it was perfectly FINE for the main character to put drugs in the girl's drink, as if that alone wasn't already a huge breach of trust and a really [expletive] shitty thing to do.
Actually I called it an excuse for homophobia. I also elaborated on my points when someone else brought up a similarly flawed "analysis". Besides, my point kind of was that there is no debate to be had with you from the start, because you are trying to speak over people who are far more qualified at this than you. So no, I'm not debating you. I was never debating you. |
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