Forum - View topicInterview: Seiji Kishi
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Key
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Posts: 18385 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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Why? They showed that a physically disabled person, with a few accommodations, could function just like any other person, and they did a beautiful job of it, too. I applaud how well they detailed the accommodations without overemphasizing that they existed - in other words, without making it the point of the scenes. That is absolutely uncharted waters for anime, too, and they didn't waste a shred of that opportunity. As for the interview, I, too, found the comments about how Kishi sees the nature of the hero as having both changed and not changed to be particularly interesting. |
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nobahn
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kotomikun--
I agree -- in toto. |
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Jajanken
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otagirl
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That comment about heroes these days being "flat" and not dealing with conflict is just outright bull. I can understand if he's referring to harem leads but the majority of MCs these days are likely to be more complex.
Someone used Levi earlier as an example of heroes these days, while its easy to just pick on specific examples, you can just as easily point out Erens/Historias growth inmore recent chapters to prove the contrary. I think the director is probably harking back to old times where shonen heroes would overcome simple weaknesses to beat the villain. Characters these days have more diverse backgrounds and maybe he just cant relate. Think Yuuki from Gakkou Gurashi (school live) and tell me theres no conflict there. |
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Hyperdrve
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The attention span thing has a lot to do with it. These days people have the luxury of being able to stream their anime online and there's a lot of competition for the viewer's attention. Naturally the most accessible anime out there requiring minimal attention span will be at the top of the queue. But there's at least one anime out there that's popular and deals with depressive states: Paranoia Agent. The problem with anime imitating Shinji is that it usually does something that makes you hate the character, like for example stagnating an otherwise linear plot, or doing something irreversible like getting a favorite character killed or destroying a whole planet. A lot of anime do a too good of a job in getting you to hate the Shinji archetype. And there's a natural, logical response that people have to that as a result. Some people would call that "art" but I strongly disagree. |
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Afezeria
Posts: 817 Location: Malaysia, Kuantan. |
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ChibiKangaroo
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The problem is this: even Kishi acknowledged that disabled people live like the rest of us. They go out and do stuff. They go to school. They eat at restaurants. They have fun. They do all the things that the rest of us do. Some people might ignorantly not understand that, but I think most people do realize that to be true. So, in other words, he was using Mimori to reinforce something that all of us already know (or should know). You could look at it from another angle - when it comes to people with disabilities, or other issues that cause them to have some kind of unique or minority condition, there is an external view and an internal view. Some might also refer to it as an external struggle and an internal struggle. What he showed us was the external, and in the case of Mimori, he showed us a mostly happy and well-adjusted external face of a disabled person. She is a disabled person who has pretty much fully adjusted to living a perfectly normal life with her disability and is more or less happy-go-lucky and all smiles. Perhaps this is a somewhat idealistic and hopeful view of someone living with a disability, and I have no doubt that there are many such people going about their daily existence. Personally, I'm fine with him showing us that external view because a "wallowing" external view would have probably been a major drag on the show. However, I think he more or less glossed over the internal view. There are all kinds of things that I would have loved to see as far as the psychology of a disabled girl coping not only with her disability but also transitioning to being a magical girl despite her disability. That is the uncharted waters I am talking about. Let's be honest, this isn't the first time we have ever seen disabled people in anime. There is a whole class of "Moe" dedicated to insanely cute girls who are disabled or otherwise vulnerable. That combination tends to drastically amp up their appeal to the target audience, protective male viewers who want to help them or keep them safe. In that sense, presenting a well-adjusted, cutesy and mostly happy-go-lucky disabled girl is not new. What would have been new in my mind is if we actually got to the internal perspective. They should have made Mimori a focal character in that way, not in the way they ultimately did spoiler[(having her go crazy because of how the Taisha treats them and the perceived futility of their efforts)]. Seeing her internal struggle with the disability would have made her a great and memorable character. Instead, she was more of a symbol that disabled people are just like the rest of us. Again, I understand why they did it. It carries a different message. Maybe Kishi and the others thought that was important to help people see that, but I don't think it was necessary and I do think that was the safe thing to do. The risky and much more memorable thing to do would have been to explore her unique perspective and the struggles associated with that, particularly with the added fantastical nature of the magical girl context. |
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tsukumiyomi
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spoiler[I think they didn't focus on it because the disabilities weren't permanent, it would be kind of pointless to have an internal conflict about disabilities if they wouldn't actually last, also, Tougou did tell Yuuna that she had negative thoughts when she's alone, she never specified what type of negative thoughts, you can assume what you want, though I think they're mostly related to the Vertex issue than anything else.]. At the end it makes sense her conflict was with the magical girl system since spoiler[at the end the world is still fire.] |
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WingKing
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Keep in mind that "complex" is one of those subjective words that may mean different things to different creators - and viewers. And anyway, Kishi himself didn't use the word "complex" in this response (at least as translated). What he talked about specifically are the angsty, low self-esteem character types who are trapped in their own heads, constantly second-guessing themselves and doubting their own abilities or value to the cause (e.g. Shinji, or Hitomi from Escaflowne, or Sakura Kinomoto; even Naruto had some shades of that, especially early in the series). As far as that goes, I can see his point - that particular brand of angst was a very 90s thing, and I don't see that as frequently in MCs anymore (it's not entirely gone, just less common). In part, you can probably thank the rise in popularity of characters like Haruhi and the K-On girls who just keep either recklessly or naively plowing ahead towards their goals in defiance of any and all obstacles, either supreme in their self-confidence or just convinced that everything will work out somehow as long as they don't give up. Interestingly, Yuki Yuna has three characters who could have been exactly that type of angsty protagonist (Togo, Itsuki, or Fu), if he had chosen to make one of them the title character, but he opted for the plucky, persistent, optimistic Yuna instead. As far as the complexity problem itself goes, whether a character is 90s-angsty or recklessly persistent doesn't by itself make them simple or complex. An angsty character isn't a complex character if all he ever does is invariably angst about every little thing and never shows another personality facet. Conversely, one of the things that makes Haruhi more interesting than many modern light novel characters is that despite her righteous attitude and stubborn refusal to self-reflect most of the time, she's still a much more complex character than what she initially seems. There's a whole mass of conflicting desires with her, and what she says and what she really wants aren't always in harmony (and the same is true of Kyon). Whereas with someone like Bell Cranel for instance, mostly what you see is what you get with him; you rarely have to stop and ponder what he's thinking or why he's acting a certain way. Personally, I like Patricia Wrede's take on what makes a character complex or not; I think it makes a lot of sense. |
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ChibiKangaroo
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I don't agree with that. If the fact that spoiler[the disability wasn't permanent somehow made it a pointless character trait, then there would have been no purpose to Kishi even talking about how he wanted to use that disability. His response to the question would have been something more like "We didn't even think about that at all because it was just a temporary plot contrivance."] I think he has clearly shown that he wanted to use the disability as a character trait, but he decided to use it in a way that is different than what I would have liked. As for Mimori saying spoiler[she had negative thoughts when she was alone, I would have definitely loved to see that explored more and see more of her internal struggles developed in regard to the disability.] So yea, maybe they were hinting at something there but why didn't they go all the way on that? Was it perhaps too risky? Too frightening for the audience? Even when she spoiler[first attempts to commit suicide, it was because of what the Taisha did and because she thinks their existence is futile now.] Why couldn't we have seen those types of struggles instead dealing with her disability? Like I said, maybe that could be seen as more risky, but I think the payoff would have been greater. Personally, I think her struggles could have ultimately been used as a strength. I said before that I thought spoiler[her going crazy at the end was repetitive because Fuu had just gone crazy. Why not have Fuu go crazy and then Mimori is able to overcome her despair once she learns the truth due to the fact that she's already overcome the perceived futility (at least in some people's minds) of living with a crippling disability?] That would have made her a much stronger and compelling character IMO. |
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Key
Moderator
Posts: 18385 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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Yes, we know that in the real world, but we don't see that in anime. Think about the debilitated girls anime has shown in the past, the ones that don't have cyborg components or some other persistent means to get around their illness/disabilities. Almost without exception (and maybe without exception?), they're shown as terribly limited. Even if they're happy, they're tragic characters and specifically portrayed as such. Mimori is an archetype-buster.
It wasn't glossed over; it just wasn't concentrated on for Mimori. spoiler[Sonoko covered that aspect.] And the show wasn't about examining the struggles of a person coping with a disability, so it would have been inappropriate to focus on it much more. Let me put it another way: if they had taken even a few minutes to focus on that, what else would you have cut out to fit it in? Yes, there were a couple of scenes where characters' laments where drawn out a little too long, but we're talking a total of maybe one minute - two tops - across the series. To do what you're talking about properly would have taken much more than that. So what goes? And if you put that in, how does that alter the tone of the piece, which is very carefully balanced as it is? Now, if your disappointment on this is along the lines of "it would have been nice to have it if there was room for it" then sure. But I don't think people consider enough the impact it would have on the series to make changes like this. |
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otagirl
Posts: 111 |
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I think you took one word I used and went on a bender with it. The reason why I even used the word "complex" was in response to the words the director used, which is, "unmoving" and "relatively plain", which in a sense, implies lack of depth and complexity. The inference that Mr Director is talking about "angsty"/"self-doubting" characters is an interpretation I don't agree with. What he actually describes are characters who "really think and get into conflicts with himself about what he was doing and what not". To be frank, I can't think of many characters outside of the shonen genre (if they can even considered to be "thinking") who fit that description from the 90s since I've not watched that many anime from that period, those that come to mind are the likes of Kenshin, Ikari Shinji, Iwakura Lain, and Guts. Although Naruto & Once Piece mangas started in the late 90s, most of the actual character development for Naruto/Sasuke/Luffy is done in later volumes. Then come the noughties to the present day I can think of plenty of characters who fit his description and then some. From the top of my head, Kaneki Ken, Decim (death parade), Ryougi Shiki, Enma Ai, Tachibana Hibiki, Shiroe (log horizon), Emiya Kiritsugu, Ange (crossange), Momonga (overlord), Tsunemori Akane, heck even Kurosaki Ichigo fits the bill. Obviously, you'll get those awful poser characters who have an annoying one-track mind like Emiya Shirou but the past one and half decade has produced some ridiculously diverse and interesting characters, I've not heard any compelling arguments to prove otherwise. |
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Hyperdrve
Posts: 276 |
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^
I think Seiji is just referencing the projects he's worked on the past. He said that in the past clients came to him with characters that would get into conflicts with themselves. The interview talks a lot about the topic of personal turmoil, i.e., angst. His work with "flat" and "unwavering" protagonists is what got him a 2014 Animation Kobe Award. Compare Seiji's recent work to the work of the first two individual recipients of an Animation Kobe Award: Hideaki Anno and then Hayao Miyazaki. At least in contrast with his senpai Hideaki Anno, Kishi Seiji doesn't complain as much about the times and strives to keep up. Unless Anno does some changes to Shinji's character for the last Rebuild of Eva movie, the character will again not be well-received. |
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Blackiris_
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I don't think a characters has to be likeable in order to be a good character. (More like, relatable.) I also don't think a character has to be well-received by the majority of the audience.
Take Ping Pong for example. I think there a quite a few people who disliked Peco. I can somewhat understand why, but I still think he's a wonderful character. |
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ChibiKangaroo
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Okay I agree with that. They are often portrayed as limited in the sense that they need the (often male) protector to help them or take care of them. However, they are also often portrayed as well-adjusted and happy. So I guess I wasn't seeing too much difference between them and Mimori, even though she is different in that she is mostly independent (with the exception of Yuna sometimes helping her get around). So I suppose there is a somewhat unique aspect to her in not only showing that she exists in society like "regular" people, but that she can do so fairly independently. It's a good point. However, I would still like to have more. I'll freely admit that I am the type of person who doesn't generally consider a character to be "great" unless I can really connect with that character with some special measure of depth. It's why I don't consider Madoka a great character despite the fact that the show was so great. She was a shallow tool, to the end pretty much. Even after acknowledging that you are correct in saying Mimori is distinct in the type of disabled person she was, I still think she was more a symbol in that sense rather than a deep, developed character, and so it is hard for me to really buy into her. Yea, you are right that developing her with more intensity would have taken time away from other places and probably would have changed the tone of the show in certain ways, but I guess I feel confident that such changes would have simply made it a better show. |
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