Forum - View topicEP. REVIEW: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works
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killjoy_the
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Kirei completely lost interest in Kiritsugu after the 4th War, and wasn't around all the time, spoiler[and Kiritsugu himself was often travelling to Germany to try and meet Ilya.] This isn't presented in F/SN though, only in F/HA, iirc. Taiga was pretty much the one who was with Shirou the most. The Church is actually quite a ways off Shirou's home too, and the kid made a point to never go there (which is a plot point of sorts in Fate, but not really explored in any other route). I'd suppose there's more than one grocery store in the entire city that'd make two people coincidentally meeting like that not an occurrence to be rather believable.
I disagree a bit on this. Archer himself gets reminded that he's saved people before he became a Guardian, and we get the flashbacks. They're small, sure, I'll give you that. The point of the emphasis of Archer's actions to be on the millions murdered is because that's all he experienced. As a Guardian, he got summoned, killed people, and was taken back. He never really saw what his actions amounted to, and I believe he himself says it in one of the episodes.
You do have a point here. It's specifically seen in that people still think that Shirou will definitely, 100% become Archer if he keeps his ideal, which is untrue, as has been said so by the author himself in interviews. There's a chance, yes, but pretty much all of people's criticisms on Shirou's insisting on the ideal is that Archer has proved to him that it's going to turn bad, and he keeps going, when in actuality it's more a case of it can turn bad, and Shirou's acting on the belief that just because Archer fucked up somewhere doesn't mean he will. Last edited by killjoy_the on Sun May 31, 2015 10:10 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Caramichael
Posts: 114 |
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Agree with most of the review, but I don't understand the rating really, from the tone I thought it would be a B. You could have detailed that a bit more since in this review it only appear you really disliked the first half.
Surprised that you didn't mention Shinji's fate in this one also. Concerning Gilgamesh letting them go, it is indeed not logical, but again we talk about a guy who's logic is hardly understandable throughout all the series. I had also this feeling in F/Z.
I stand by my belief that it is voluntarily what the show is trying to convey, especially with Archer saying in the end that he hopes Rin will help changing him.
To be the devil's advocate, I would say that it is shown when Archer flashback about when he was globetrotting and was greeted by many people. I think that was the turn where he gave up the fight really. Moreover, it is shown that he didn't remember/wanted to remember his past life as Shirou, I got the impression that he was aware of the fact that he was Shirou in his previous life, but that he forgot (voluntarily) his past life (and thus his motivations and feelings that are coming back to him during the end of the fight). One thing I find very amusing looking at the reactions from people is how polar opposite the criticisms are from non-type Moon fans to type moons fan. The later always cry at how they left huge chunks of the monologues and that is the reason why people don't understand and don't like the show while the former (like myself) find there is way too much monologues and staring at each other. I felt they try to compensate that last week by tying it into the choreography (which didn't work either for me), but this week I really had the impression of watching a VN. |
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otagirl
Posts: 111 |
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I for one agree with her views on this show. It's a piece of turd for the most part. The prequel is great which is the only reason why I bother watching this, for the sake of completeness.
MOD NOTE: Personal attacks will be removed without remorse. |
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor
 Posts: 7912 Location: Anime News Network Technodrome |
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Keep it civil, people.
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鏡
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Most of these reviews seem to be from a very specific, narrow perspective of gender dynamic analysis, which the review of 20 pretty much confirmed. The idea that the show needed to say anything more than "Archer is preventing the collapse of the human species" to show the essential morality of his actions to support Shirou's revelation about the beauty of Kiritsugu's wish seems to emerge from the failings of the show to serve that very specific perspective: the show goes through a lot of pains to show that Shirou's persistence is justified by his refusal to fall into Archer's cynicism/regret about the justice of his actions, despite their appearance. All of the rhetoric about his choice being "dripping with hypocrisy yet just" is meant to elaborate on that idea.
To put it in the context of Archer's pre-regret philosophy specifically: Shirou is "biting the bullet" of Archer's argument against utilitarianism as being something that requires us to commit horrible acts for the greater good, and maintaining his faith in that greater good while doing it, which is the one step Archer forgot to take. Shirou is still a decidedly broken person, dedicated to a single wish handed to him by Kiritsugu, but now he has a deeply personal faith in it which defines him and gives him the resolve to understand the necessity of the heinous acts he may have to commit. 19 and 20 have been the height of the series for me, 21 inevitably cooled off a bit. I did enjoy Gil's speech though; made him seem like a lonely, spited lover. I'm glad ufotable held off so long on using Emiya's theme, the payoff was huge. |
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jl07045
 Posts: 1527 Location: Riga, Latvia |
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I don't think the show needs to spell it out that saving someone benefits at least the person that was saved. That's not the focus of this whole endeavor. The focus is the clash between idealism and cynicism, determination and self-doubt. Idealism wins out, because we're not ready to give up on it just because world sucks. Determination wins out, because one can't go towards a goal like Shirou's if they're not absolutely convinced it's worth it. Two problems remain: 1) does Shirou actually have enough strength to be what he strives for, i.e., can he walk the talk; 2) can he find joy in his life apart from his determination to become champion of justice. The show is not over yet. |
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Stelman257
Posts: 297 |
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I personally have seriously enjoyed the last 3 episodes of this arc, and thought the second especially was a fantastic way to continue/conclude Kiritsugu's story arc from Fate/Zero.
As far as sequels go this is honestly everything I wanted in regards to Kiritsugu's story. Fate/Zero is really the only Fate thing I've had much interaction with, and I've been invested in Kiritsugu's plot-line about becoming a hero ever since. Back then all I'd heard of FSN was the silly dumb things, so I was super disappointed Kiritsugu was succeeded by some awful harem protagonist like Shirou. But honestly this adaptation has really seriously warmed me up to Shirou, and the Archer plot twist made me like him even more. Last weeks episode was absolutely fantastic to me just because it legit was the perfect continuation and capping off to Kiritsugu's arc that I wanted to see, and especially the one that Fate/Zero's ending was pushing so hard. All of Archer and Shirou's dialogue has been fantastic, and I went from liking Archer for being a suave badass, to wanting him to calm down and stop betraying everyone, to liking him again because we finally saw what makes him tick, and how Shirou really ties into all of this. And I would argue that it's no coincidence these Archer episodes have ended up at almost the same place the Kiritsugu episodes were placed in Fate/Zero. So yeah, almost total newbie to the franchise, loved Fate/Zero (especially the dub, can't wait to hear UBW dubbed as well), was super worried about a new supposed FSN adaptation, but I've been pleasantly surprised and have really ended up loving it. |
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Chrysostomus
Posts: 335 |
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I'm glad that there were no shoehorned-in irrelevant tangents about gender in this week's review, but I kinda feel that had it been a naked girl bathing in that grail mud, and not Gil, we would have gotten another sermon about how evil and chauvinistic it is to portray sexualized females.
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HughAlexander
Posts: 51 |
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Gabbie "is really crippled by (her) inability to make and support an argument.
I find it funny how much this line fits her own review. Another review that is "filled with hypocrisy," baseless, irrelevant, or counterfactual arguments, and a very big failure in analysis on her part. Luckily we didn't have any shoehorned opinions about irrelevant topics, and has managed to remain free from double standards this time around. The only thing she can stand behind is the "opinion" card, showing how she fails to establish even one actual valid point. The message of the show, which she so blatantly refuses to acknowledge, is so clear that you'd have to wonder how she could miss it. There is a saying in Spanish that fits her so well, "No hay peor ciego que el que no quiere ver." There are none so blind as those who refuse to see |
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Caramichael
Posts: 114 |
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That was kind of my point, as I said last week:
The right thing leading almost certainly to failure, maybe I should have explicited that. The point of UBW is that the questions you ask are the ones which the answer is implicitly in this route "No". And that is because it is a tragedy at this point of the adaptation. Tragedy isn't only Fate (heh) that keeps kicking the protagonists, the protagonist more often than not have the possibility, sometime multiple times, to back off or prevent their death, but because the right thing to do is the one that lead them to their death, and because they can't back away from righteousness, they go towards it. For example, in Hamlet, all could have been resolved if Hamlet had used his chance to kill Claudius, but because it was not the right thing to do, and even though he is aware he might not have another chance, he backs away. I have the feeling that it is exactly what was happening in these last 3 episodes. Shirou is at the point of his life where he has the chance to back away but despite knowing that it will be his undoing, and here quite clearly from Archer's fate, he will still follow his right path. |
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor
Posts: 7912 Location: Anime News Network Technodrome |
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This thread is absolutely not the "let's all verbally abuse the writer".
Gabriella Ekens did not harm you personally. She did not insult you personally. She did not come to your house and leave a flaming bag of poo on your lawn. Here's what she did: she expressed an opinion about a TV show you didn't agree with. Your response should be appropriate to that, rather than behaving like she personally keyed your car. The amount of condescension and vitriol in this thread is absurd for what it's discussing. HughAlexander, you seem to be dedicating an enormous amount of your life angrily refuting every single opinion in this thread and in the review that does not fall in line with yours 100%. Looking at your post history, you not only signed up here just to complain about this review, you have literally done it 5 times a day every day for the past week. It's not my place to tell you how to spend your time, but this is getting close to "soapboxing", which is against the rules. Gabriella is not your personal punching bag and neither are the other posters in this thread. Maybe take a breather. Disagree with the writer all you want on subjective grounds, but if you can't show her basic human respect, you're gonna get tossed out. Those are the rules. They aren't up for debate. |
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Vanadise
 Posts: 516 |
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I felt like the dialog in the last few episodes was pretty painful, at best. Shirou and Archer have just been ignoring each other while yelling meaningless platitudes at each other that would only sound profound to somebody who's never taken a philosophy class.
Really, here's everything that happened between them in the last three episodes: Archer: "If you think you can sacrifice yourself and save everybody, you'll just end up killing a lot of people and destroying yourself." Shirou: "No I won't!" Archer: "Yes you will!" Shirou: "No I won't!" *stabs Archer* It could've been condensed down to half an episode, but I guess they decided to keep the VN's glacial pace because otherwise they wouldn't have enough plot to fill out the rest of the series. |
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Pipoko
Posts: 165 |
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Yeah. I think I agree with the reviews in the end. The dialog is a mess; we've been repeating the same thing for 3 episodes and Shirou's resolve doesn't really work because it's shown as noble and the positives aren't really focused on, so it's a stubborn one-upping, it's not admirable. Though this episode seemed to frame it maybe as possibly a more sad/tragic thing that Shirou still clings to these ideals if you squint? Maybe that reading is kind of possible? I can't tell because the damn prose is so muddled and no, as a person some pages back clarified, it's not just bad subs.
That said, yeah, Gilgamesh is kinda interesting and it's kind of satisfying/horrifying (who deserves that?) to see Shinji get his fate, but it's just so very boring. This is just not doing it for me. |
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Valhern
 Posts: 916 |
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I'd like to clarify some things about Sumerian culture which I think the reviewer skipped to make her point.
First off, Gilgamesh was not an emperor, he was a king, people from Sumer didn't understand what conquest was, forget even forming an empire. Sure, there were some little skirmish over territory and what some kings (most of the time they were not actual kings) did was take nomads territory and installed people there because the city was too overcrowded. The empire was Akkad and the king Sargon, Semites, totally different origin. Gilgamesh, also, was a hero, not a god. Hero in Sumer means a role-model, an example. In his myth, Gilgamesh aims to attain immortality, but that's only for gods and he has his punishment, lesson for all men: Don't try to imitate the gods for you are not one. At the same time, a god was above even the king; the king had the power of the army, but only gods can determine war, therefore the priests had more power than the kings, in some cities the king was in fact the most important priest rather than the best militar. Long-story short, Gilgamesh was obeyed because he was truly an ideal king, protector of his people, but truth is, what he seeked was beyond human and surpassed the gods, and in Mesopotamy, gods > you and he ends up understanding that. I read part of his backstory that is not included in the anime so far and it's basically a completed version of what we actually have of his epic, and it would really help understand his character now, since as a Servant and with the Holy Grail he can do what gods wouldn't let him. On the actual episode, I feel it would have been better for the first half to be part of the previous episode; of course, a 30 minutes episode was out of the question, but ending that one with Archer's defeat would have made it perfect, but watching it a week after makes it all the weaker, still, I think a B would be more fitting as a Rank but whatever. |
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Merostay
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ubw was stripped down to bare bones long ago... -UBW- Shirou: I want to save everybody! Archer: That is both a logical contradiction and a denial of the self. Shirou: But the ideal encompasses an aesthetic that makes the endless journey worth it. Why can't I selfishly pursue selflessness? Archer: ...crap Gil: Those swords are copyrighted, mongrels! END. |
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