View previous topic :: View next topic |
Author |
Message |
|
Drowning_Wolf
Joined: 26 Sep 2006
Posts: 193
|
Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 6:55 pm
|
|
|
ichiro3923 wrote: | And to be be fair for Anime vs. American shows, maybe we should step it up a knotch and compare Anime Movies vs. American Movies. I'd like to see how Anime Movies can compare to Blockbuster Hollywood movies like Pirates of the Carribean, Spiderman 3, Shrek 3, Harry Potter, Ocean's 13, etc.
(THE FIGHT IS ON!) |
What about those lesser known (or limited release, I guess) movies... which are (in my opinion) often much better than the big blockbusters (not that I dislike those, in fact I like most of the example you give with the exception of Shrek 3 and Spider-Man 3). American movies wins for sure anyway but I'd prefer not too go there (and there is much less anime movies than series to, right?).
|
Back to top |
|
|
ichiro3923
Joined: 08 Apr 2007
Posts: 167
Location: hiding in your closet watching you
|
Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 7:07 pm
|
|
|
Drowning_Wolf wrote: |
ichiro3923 wrote: | And to be be fair for Anime vs. American shows, maybe we should step it up a knotch and compare Anime Movies vs. American Movies. I'd like to see how Anime Movies can compare to Blockbuster Hollywood movies like Pirates of the Carribean, Spiderman 3, Shrek 3, Harry Potter, Ocean's 13, etc.
(THE FIGHT IS ON!) |
What about those lesser known (or limited release, I guess) movies... which are (in my opinion) often much better than the big blockbusters (not that I dislike those, in fact I like most of the example you give with the exception of Shrek 3 and Spider-Man 3). American movies wins for sure anyway but I'd preferred not too go there (and there is much less anime movies than series too, right?). |
One movie I think was good was Akira. I think that it was an awesome movie or at least revolutionary to the way people viewed anime. This literary book I read that discusses the theme of Akira made me think that Akira was a perfect masterpiece. I kinda got dissapointed w/ the ending because I was expecting a bigger " BANG" w/ Tetsuo's form because that book I read praised how the movie shows the "beauty of the grotesque". Plus, I was also expecting a grim ending where that planet will explode, lead to chaos, and civilization is wiped out just so people will be shocked in the ending.
|
Back to top |
|
|
ichiro3923
Joined: 08 Apr 2007
Posts: 167
Location: hiding in your closet watching you
|
Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 7:24 pm
|
|
|
Drowning_Wolf wrote: |
American movies wins for sure anyway but I'd prefer not too go there (and there is much less anime movies than series to, right?). |
I hate to sound like a bitch who wants to be edgy, but I thought anime was the "Ultimate form of entertainment". Now American Movies can't play a factor in this debate?
(I'm in a provoking mood today...)
|
Back to top |
|
|
Akukaze
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
Posts: 185
Location: Stony Brook, NY
|
Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 11:35 pm
|
|
|
One thing about the anime > American TV viewpoint that has always bugged me is that usually people compare the "best" anime ever with what's CURRENTLY airing in America. Ghost in the Shell, Cowboy Bebop and Wolf's Rain all ended years ago, and I don't believe any of them were airing at the same time. If you look at 13 or 26-episode anime series, generally there are maybe one or two of any real artistic merit airing during any given season, with the rest ranging from merel entertaining to just bad. And the same can be said of American TV.
And another problem with comparing, say, Chevalier with CSI is the same problem you get form comparing indepent films with major studio productions, or comparing an less commercial piece of art to a more commercial piece of art. Chevalier aired in the middle of the night and made no intention of bringing in a goldmine in advertising or DVD sales.
For the record, I watch more American TV than anime. I grew up with American TV, and I'm used to American humor and the American idea of drama.
And I recognized the Cake parody right away. I can actually imagine John McCrea singing the "new" lyrics.
|
Back to top |
|
|
Fiction Alchemist
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 438
|
Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 2:51 am
|
|
|
Deleted.
Last edited by Fiction Alchemist on Thu Sep 08, 2022 12:40 pm; edited 1 time in total
|
Back to top |
|
|
ikillchicken
Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Posts: 7272
Location: Vancouver
|
Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 3:21 am
|
|
|
I really think Its pointless and even downright silly to compare Anime to american TV. Theyre massively fundamentally different from each other. The most major difference is Anime is obviously animated whereas most TV is live. (Unless ofcourse you want to compare it to cartoons, but then youre comparing animation aimed at all audiences to animation aimed primarilly at kids.) Then theres also just the differences in how the TV buisness works here vs in Japan.
Its an apples and oranges comparison. If you really must compare the two, you should at least compare these fundamental differences between the two, instead of comparing how good various shows were.
|
Back to top |
|
|
Tempest
I Run this place.
ANN Publisher
Joined: 29 Dec 2001
Posts: 10455
Location: Do not message me for support.
|
Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 9:30 am
|
|
|
MasterYeshua wrote: |
Allow me to elaborate to clear up these misconceptions with my all time list. I've been watching anime for 7 years now and have watched over 250 series. I came up with this list in about 15 minutes. I didn't post this list to be the end-all be-all, 100% accurate, unquestionable, representation of anime's best. |
Allow me to elaborate on my previous post to clear up your misunderstanding of my point.
Not only are those shows not the very best of anime, they really are really poor examples of how "anime is better than US TV." If you were to show any of the shows I listed to an American adult and say "this is very good anime" their response should be "Meh, cool... but it's kids stuff, now stop bothering me with your cartoons."
Anyways, I've been watching anime longer than you, I've seen more anime than you have, I've thought about thesubject much more than you have (I spend about 10 hours a day thinking about anime, some 300 days a year, but I probably also devote a good 40 hours a year dissecting about the comparison between anime and non-japanese animation and non-japanese live-action) and I can't quite confidently say, "you're wrong."
You're blanket statement that anime is better than US TV sounds like every other misguided anime-phile that has come before you.
Anime has a lot of very strong points when compared to American TV, and especially when compared to American animation. But it isn't a clear winner. For example, the animation quality of anime is, on a technical level, below that of most American animation (Japanese studios drop frames to keep the budget down). This is just one example of why anime isn't "clearly"superior to american animation. There are many more.
Don't get me wrong, I don't think American TV is better either. I think that any conclusion that either of the two sub-mediums is better reflects an either flawed, or highly biased comparison.
And please, next time you want to convince adults that anime is better, pick better, adult-oriented examples, and compare those examples to the best that american adult TV has to offer (ie: The Sopranos). If you aren't well into adulthood yet, just accept the fact that anime is better for you and you like it more, but you're in no position to explain anime's superiority.
-t
|
Back to top |
|
|
Veoryn87
Joined: 14 Nov 2006
Posts: 808
|
Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 1:36 pm
|
|
|
MasterYeshua wrote: | For example, the animation quality of anime is, on a technical level, below that of most American animation (Japanese studios drop frames to keep the budget down). This is just one example of why anime isn't "clearly"superior to american animation. There are many more.-t |
Why do they do that though? Are they just big penny pinchers (I should probably say yen pinchers), or are Japanese animation studios just poorer? It's hard for me to believe that Japanese animation studios don't make enough money.
|
Back to top |
|
|
CCSYueh
Joined: 03 Jul 2004
Posts: 2707
Location: San Diego, CA
|
Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 2:35 pm
|
|
|
Master Yeshua, my problem is I've seen enough GOOD American tv (since I've been watching since the '60's) it's simple to find superior shows, Yes, I've been suspicious of some shows I've seen on whether the creators were familiar with anime since I recognize some of the plots from older anime (Buffy), but I also can EASILY pick out the steals from our stuff in anime. Like the classic Megazone 23 anime steals HEAVILY from Star Wars & we won't even go into all the post apocalyptic Road Warrior steals, much less Blade Runner.. Even my teen recognized the thinly-veiled Twilight Zone theme in the background of Big O. YuYu Hakusho is similar to cartoons I grew up on in the 60's (ghost-buster type titles like Funky Phantom or Scooby Doo)
But many, many manga-ka's admit to borrowing heavily. Akira Toriyama, in one interview, commented he would lunch with a couple other author's & they'd bounce ideas off one another, or "borrow' other ideas which I believe is where he got the Super Saiyan thing or the Kamehameha (I do believe he commented his wife named Goku's signature move after a Hawaiian King). It's like the old joke in the Dark Shadows community-that the "bible" for the series was Plagerism 101. I swear it's obvious in Bleach when Kubo dreamed up that Bankai thing since suddenly EVERYONE was whipping it out(if he'd had it planned all along, why didn't anyone use it prior in their fights?). This isn't greatr literature--it's highly disposable mass entertainment. Yes, some of the makers aspire to more & manage to accomplish it, but a lot of the best shonen stuff is solidly in the realm of our soap operas where the makers are so busy grinding out 5 shows a week, who can be original? Weekly Shonen Jump-that's what-a chapter a week these guys have to dream up? Of course hey settle for re-hashing plot devices from other titles. That's even part of the job requirement. Shonen is aimed at the younger marker. THe younger market expects certain things & aren't looking for totally new & original. THe hero is the hero. He might stumble here & there, but he (his team) will ultimately save the day using moves all the kids know with a new one added every so often. Move into Seinen & one can get the darker doom & gloom bleak future. Shojo is going to explore themes teen girls are concerned about, usually relationships with friends, lovers & crushes.
And as I complained, far too often what could be a great title settles for the the easy route-the path everyone else treads of common plot devices because, yeah, it is hard to pound out 10-20 pages per week. Our stuff does it also. Back when I was a teen, my sister & I would track plots from 6 Million Dollar Man over to say Barnaby Jones or whatever other show (I thionk one plot made 6 different series one yeat). Yeah, back then in the days before video recorders they probably figured they could get away with it-change a couple things to make it work for each title-who's going to notice? Yeah, the Dark Tournament in YuYu Hakusho is similar to the Dark Tournament in Flame of Recca & both may have their basis in Gladiators. Is Death Note all that different from our cat & mouse detective stories where life is on the line (Sleuth comes to mind as I read the play between L & Light & later Near & Light) And if one reads the comments most manga-kas include in their works, they often mention various American titles they enjoy which just might influence their stuff. The author of Hana Kimi commented the school doc's looks are based on James Spader from a decade or so back. Satisfaction Guaranteed's author stated she loved Ewan McGregor which is where she got the name for the psychic in Volume 4. The author of Lament of the Lamb said he wrote it after being influenced by Near Dark, a dark little vamp movie from the 80's
The honest ones make no bones about the liberties they take.
|
Back to top |
|
|
belligerent
Joined: 02 Jan 2007
Posts: 49
Location: NC
|
Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 3:07 pm
|
|
|
Quote: | The Saiyuki dudes look good unclothed |
Oh yes.
Yay for the Top Chef mention! I'll be over here waving my #1 Stephen Asprinio fangirl banner. I guess I'm a bad person for not watching much anime lately...but there's always good American stuff on, though I mainly watch either bravoreality stuff or true crime programs.
Saying that there is no good television in America is so culturally self-loathing. There's a lot of this attitude among anime fans, though...if anybody is looking for research topics, this might make an interesting one.
The flake made me laugh a lot, even though I knew immediately what it was spoofing. I guess it was just the phrasing. "I want a Zac," etc. Very funny, though.
Anybody who hasn't seen THIS show is missing out. But I love rubber bats and werewolf sideburns almost as much as I love Stephen Asprinio and unclothed Saiyuki guys, so I'm biased.
|
Back to top |
|
|
Mercury Crusader
Joined: 21 Jan 2006
Posts: 67
|
Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 3:23 pm
|
|
|
MasterYeshua wrote: |
The point is if you were to create an all time best anime list and then compare to an equal all time best TV show list, Anime would be victorious. |
Considering you stated you have watched anime for seven years, and I'm guessing you haven't watched many shows, anime or otherwise, from before you were born possibly, that is a pretty bold statement. Also note that while everybody has their own opinion of what is and isn't considered a "best of", it is just that: an opinion. I know everybody wants to be some kind of representative or expert on the subject of entertainment, any kind of list or "facts" you can throw out would be purely subjective.
You'd also need to do side-by-side comparisons with American TV shows and anime, and that's nigh impossible unless they're based on the same story. You could also limit or expand the list by referencing works based on year produced, what "era" it comes from, the various genres and sub-genres, production budget, and a whole lot of other crap that, when you're done sorting out, will realize those facts should not an opinion make. The blanket statement of "X is better than Y because of Z", where Z equals name dropping a bunch of series for X while not mentioning anything from the Y camp is not exactly the most scientific or logical means of proving a point.
tempest may have seen more anime than you, or even me, but I bet I've seen more general TV shows than a lot of people, be they recent, classic, etc. I wasted most of my life on television (though I'm sure there are people here who can beat me on that on the fact that they're older than me). Even so, I'm not about to debate on why The Rifleman is just infinitely better than Trigun. Though, now that I think about it...
|
Back to top |
|
|
CCSYueh
Joined: 03 Jul 2004
Posts: 2707
Location: San Diego, CA
|
Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 6:51 pm
|
|
|
Mercury Crusader wrote: |
tempest may have seen more anime than you, or even me, but I bet I've seen more general TV shows than a lot of people, be they recent, classic, etc. I wasted most of my life on television (though I'm sure there are people here who can beat me on that on the fact that they're older than me). Even so, I'm not about to debate on why The Rifleman is just infinitely better than Trigun. Though, now that I think about it... |
There's another thing.
We've influenced then so much, it's really hard to cut off pure Japanese product from Western influenced stuff. Such as in those little interviews included in Samurai 7 where the makers were asked for their favorite scene from the original Japanese movie & one or both of the people being interviewed commented they were more influenced by Magnificent 7, the American re-make rather than any one scene in 7 Samurai. Trigun is fun, but they didn't have the Wild West in Japan-that's all our influence. Vampires are more wester-Japan has more vengeful spirits. I do like the anime with a heavy Japanese flavor, but a lot of that is the older stuff from the 80's & early 90's when they were animating for a Japanese audience. Now their eye is on a world audience so we're not getting that Japan uber all in the flavor of Blue Seed. Now they're animating stuff with an eye to it being popular in Japan, but also the other markets so maybe we'ere getting a couple really good titles per season, but overall, we're sliding towards Denny's middle of the road. I appreciate a good fan service title such as Sorcerer Hunters or Saber Marionette because they're funny, but so many of the fan service harem titles aimed at dudes lately seem so busy covering all the types (glasses, Ruri/Nadescico, etc) that I'm just not laughing as much. At least the gal harem BL titles remember the humor even if they pack in 2 dozen gorgeous guys & we know we're not looking for rocket science in these titles (I have no need to excuse them as guilty pleasures. I work hard for my money. This is my relaxation-pop in some bishies & laugh) Maybe it's the Japanese fan (if titles like Genshiken or the vertical & horizontal fans in Comic Party aren't just jokes), I don't know. If they are getting as inflexible as the jokes, then that could be the reason these titles aren't as funny
But that's also the fault with the mass of US tv. Yes, we have our 24, Sopranos(never watched that one), Rescue Me, whatever, but the bulk is aimed at people who have put in their 8-10 hr day & don't want to do the New York Times crossword--they just want to unwind.
Wow, someone else here remembers Dark Shadows. My teen was named after one of the names the witch that cursed Barnabas used & she knows it. We just usually tell people she's named after the Greek myth.
|
Back to top |
|
|
Fiction Alchemist
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 438
|
Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 11:42 pm
|
|
|
Deleted.
Last edited by Fiction Alchemist on Thu Sep 08, 2022 12:40 pm; edited 1 time in total
|
Back to top |
|
|
DRWii
Joined: 16 May 2007
Posts: 642
|
Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 10:28 am
|
|
|
Quote: | But it isn't a clear winner. For example, the animation quality of anime is, on a technical level, below that of most American animation (Japanese studios drop frames to keep the budget down). |
I don't get why Japanese studios have lower budgets. Perhaps most of the money in Japan gets used up on making the country work (which is very important, obviously) and all those tecnological advances, so there just isn't much left for the entertainment industry (obviously its lower on the priority scale, but that makes sense).
Of course, they certainly know how to use those low budgets. I saw "Paprika" this past weekend, and it looked beautiful. Now, imagine it with the kind of budget Disney had for, say, "Treasure Planet". *Imagines*
*Faints*
|
Back to top |
|
|
Veoryn87
Joined: 14 Nov 2006
Posts: 808
|
Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 2:49 pm
|
|
|
shirokiryuu wrote: | Wow to the Flake of the Week.
Although I do have to comment on one thing about hotsprings. Anime can be misleading. The lady at the hotsprings in Japan wouldn't let me go in with a towel around my body. I guess those were just ways to bypass the nudity block on TV.
I agree with the anime being the best part. Although I watch more anime than American TV, it's not hard for me to tell that there are a lot of bad shows as good shows. I used to like everything when I was in middle school ,but now as a high schooler, when I look back at those shows, I realize how flawed they all. (Usually I still like them for sentimental reasons) |
That's what I was wondering. Still, anime like Samurai Champloo, Eureka Seven, Ghost in the Shell, and Gankutsuou are undeniably beautiful.
|
Back to top |
|
|
|