Forum - View topicEP. REVIEW: Maria the Virgin Witch
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ChibiKangaroo
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Oh come on Blood-, that was not a "wild distortion." That actually happens. Yes, Maria does eventually come around to it and say "ohhh okay," but initially she was opposed to it. (And it still wasn't done by her will, so "forced" is totally accurate by the way. She doesn't run over to Ezekiel, grab her and somehow stuff her inside her own body ![]()
Okay, but I've been saying that I think Gabriella has been ignoring certain aspects of the events, characters, dialogue, development, plot etc that contradict her interpretation. She's only been relying on what I think are loose interpretations of certain plot elements and whatnot that support her opinion. Sure, everyone does that sometimes in making a case, but I do think it goes a bit more to the extreme in this instance since she is saying the show is virtually flawless. Doesn't that seriously open someone up for extra scrutiny? Last edited by ChibiKangaroo on Mon Mar 30, 2015 10:55 am; edited 1 time in total |
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addiemon
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It might just be less readily apparent to a guy that this kind of layered, even-handed portrayal of a complex female lead is rare, since it's less rare for a male leads (although hardly common). ^^
I'm not sure I agree with the premise about how women in the show are portrayed (even Lolotte is shown more as an opportunist/survivalist than primarily a sex worker). That said, one of the major themes of the show, in my opinion, is to illustrate how patriarchal societies that equate a woman's value (power) with her sex/virginity ultimately set women up for lives that revolve around sex, including sexual violence as the simplest way to disempower a woman (literally, in Maria's case).
See, this is where I think we disagree. My interpretation of how women's sexuality is used in the series is similar, but not the same. I see it used for 1) manipulating men (Artemis) and 2) livelihood / access to plunder (Lolotte). As I noted, I think Lolotte represents someone who has just bought into the system: she has no drive to change it but will do what it takes to survive in it. In either case, this use of sex is firmly because of how the male-led society has painted women into a corner: if the only power men let women have is power over sex, is it any surprise that women will use that power to achieve their goals? But when women do so, they may be reviled as "witches" and/or "whores"-- a damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't scenario. In my opinion, this series provides an allegorical look at the stark reality of this historical setting and the many others with similar values, so what you're decrying as "not feminist" is in fact intended to illustrate one of the very facets that leads some of us to believe that the show is feminist. ^^ |
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ChibiKangaroo
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As far as I can tell, we are saying the same thing. These are essentially two different interpretations of the system/societal structure of prostitution.
Absolutely! I agree that that is the nature of such a system. I just don't think that simply showing women existing in that system is, by itself "feminist." I think such a definition completely devalues the concept of feminism. Every work that ever showed women in negative circumstances would be considered feminist. I think feminism requires something more, something that demonstrates movement of society as a whole toward an ideal. The best way to do that would show women somehow overthrowing or severely damaging the patriarchal system. However, as I said, in this show the system is simply re-affirmed at the end. |
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addiemon
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You're right, showing women existing in that system is not feminist by itself. I would argue that showing complex and layered characters-- both male AND female --existing within and interacting with this system makes it feminist, remembering always that "feminism" is the fight for gender equality, even if "fem" is in the name. ![]() While we all abhor Galfa's actions towards Maria, he is-- as every character in the series is --a product of this same system, and one must remember that his most abhorrent action (at least as far as how it's depicted) is one literally set up by the earthly church. That he is not somehow innately evil his is clearly illustrated and demonstrated by the care the staff took to give him opportunities to be likable early on. I mean, even Count Guillaume gets a moment towards the end to be a kind of okay dude. He'd been a pretty flat sort of power-hungry semi-doofus up to that point. Bernard is probably the least-layered character in the piece, to be honest. On the other hand, he's also the most direct product of the religious patriarchy as a prominent church fixture, and he's also kind of just crazy. The character whose future I'm actually the most curious about is Gilbert: does he double down on his strict interpretation of the church? Or does his vision of Michael's verdict for Maria open his eyes? ...Err, sorry, got a little off-topic there. Ultimately I would argue Maria is a feminist series because it is exploring the impact of an inherently sexist system on members of both sexes, the vast majority of whom are fully-realized complex characters. ![]() |
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Blood-
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Yeah, it is. You have to imagine what a person who has not seen the episode would think if you said, "there was a part where the main female character is forcefully implanted with a child against her will." Somebody at information zero would be under the impression that something horrible had happened and that the female character must be incredibly distraught. That is a wild distortion of what actually went down. Yes, Maria was taken aback by the suggestion that she was suddenly going to be pregnant (who wouldn't be) and it did take a little convincing, but ultimately she did accept the role and seemed to be happy about it. Do you really believe that Maria was bummed out that Ezekiel chose her of all others to be born from? Of course not, she was flattered and happy after the 3.2 seconds it took to think about it. So - once again - you are wildly distorting this event to suit your own viewpoint. |
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InstallGeneru
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I would disagree with the use of the word feminism here as feminism would be pushing women's rights to be equivalent to the men's.That's how I see it at least and correct me if I am wrong.I think saying "gender equality" is much more appropriate. |
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GiriOni
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So I decided to look up Cernunnos. Appears to be a Celtic god that little is known about.
Cernunnos in relation to Christianity lead to Saint Ciaran of Saigir. Which had an interesting story to him that I thought was somewhat relevant. Although it's probably just me drawing faint connections where there aren't any. "...for in the air right over him a kite came soaring and, swooping down before his face, lifted a little bird that sat upon her nest. Compassion for the little bird took Cieran, and he deemed it an ill thing to see it in such plight; thereupon the kite turned back and in front of him deposited the bird half dead, sore hurt; but Cieran bade it rise and be whole. The bird arose, and went whole upon its nest again." Last edited by GiriOni on Mon Mar 30, 2015 11:41 am; edited 1 time in total |
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ChibiKangaroo
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But, do you really think she had a choice? I think the choice was made by Ezekiel and God. Maria might accept it in the end, but she didn't choose it. Someone else already mentioned that this is fairly analogous to what happened with the "Virgin Mary" of the bible. There was no choice in that matter either. She was pre-determined to be the mother of a religio-magically implanted baby before she was even born. So, like I said, although I acknowledge your point that she did ultimately acquiesce, she did not choose it and thus was quite literally forced. |
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InstallGeneru
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She was for sure flustered about it for a few moments,but then she shown what seemed as full consent about the situation even if she didn't go out of her way to ask for it.She welcomed her with a smile and a hug,which would not be the case if she wasn't willing at all.(Taken from her character during the rest of the series of course) |
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Ergo Proxy
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Would you all pls finally stop discussing the whole "feminism" aspect? No one of you will come to a compromiss and either way, it is completely unnessecary for the series, because it is not about feminism but about religious fundamentalism...
Focus on the important thing instead of focusing on little side-interpretations that don't bring anything for the meaning of the series... Shall we begin to call Psycho-Pass and Ghost in the Shell feminist series? Shall we begin to call Serial Experiments Lain a feminist series? (I think SEL is the most absurd example) Shall we begin to call Attack on Titan a feminist series? You guys don't seem to get it..."Feminism" is THE FIGHT for gender equality in a situation where females are opressed, feminism is not gender equality itself. If a series CONTAINS gender equality, it is NOT feminist, because there is no need to fight for gender equality, not from the male side and not from the female side, so there is also no point in talking about feminism in that case. Junketsu no Maria is not a feminist series, it had never anything to do with oppression of female gender, Junketsu no Maria is about religious fundamentalism. If the "witches" would have been male, the whole message of the series would have stayed EXACTLY the same, with no differences at all. With that being said, I beg you, pls close this feminism discussion and start talking about the religious aspects instead, thank you...have a wonderful day. |
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Blood-
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@ Ergo Proxy - you don't get to choose what people will talk about. Perhaps it's not a topic that interests you - too bad. Just put on your big boy/big girl pants, gloss over those sections that don't interest you and suck it up.
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Ergo Proxy
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@Blood- I don't want to choose what people will talk about, I just don't want them to waste their time with an unnessecary topic just because the reviewer here brought up the "feminist" aspect...I've clarified everything in my comment and that was supposed to be it, nothing more.
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addiemon
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I see you found an aluminum receptacle full of worms and decided to open it! ![]() You're more than welcome to use "gender equality" instead of feminism of course! But when I talk about feminism, I mean it in the sense of the above definition-- as I suspect many others on this board do. ![]() |
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Eldritcho
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I think this is a pretty good way of putting it. Just because a series portrays a strong, or multiple strong female leads, or leads of any gender, doesn't inherently make it "feminist" or any kind of "ist" or "ism". That's just a label slapped on what can stand by itself as a good show with good characters. To be any sort of "ist" or "ism", the show I feel needs to actually be about or address the issues brought up by those beliefs, and actively strive towards them/ promote them as such. For instance, Ferngully is and can be called an environmentalist film because it actually promotes, discusses, and is based around the idea of conservation and environmentalism, and calls for an ending to deforestation as it's central message. But with the broad definition i feel some people use, some would also say it is a feminist film strictly because it has a strong female lead who lives in a kind-of-matriarchal society. But none of those elements really have anymore barring on the story than that, and if the lead was male and their love interest female, the film would have still worked the same. As such, i think one could be able to say a work might have some feminist "elements", but to say that these elements make it a feminist work overall is just overselling it, or at worst misrepresenting it entirely for the sake of a label. |
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InstallGeneru
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I'll agree to disagree on the definition of the term but I acknowledge what you really mean with the term and will try to refer to it(the meaning) as such in the future. |
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