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Meiaminkbell wrote:

I hate to bring up the cliche "violence leads to more violence", but holy cow. You're talking about seriously wounding, possibly killing (if you hit an artery or vein, AND YOU CAN, you can kill someone by stabbing them practicaly anywhere) someone who just wants 2 f'ing dollars. There is NO sense in that. If he's alone and I think I can take him, I say no. If he has buddies, I go "here ya go".

Knives, guns, those all lead to people getting really hurt or worse. Fists aren't much better, but at the least you're letting your bully know that you aren't a coward.

If you get a knife pulled on you, don't fight though. It's not worth it.

I realize that a knife can easily kill. That is the point. It's a good way to stand up to a bully. You are showing them that their own actions endanger their own lives, which smart people realize to start out with (therefore they don't bully others). If they die in the process, so be it. Just make sure that you were really being bullied and that a lot of people knew about it, or else you would get into trouble. For example if you get bullied reasonably significantly several times and everyone knows, and no teachers or administrators do anything about it, and then you kill them with a knife, you might not even have to go to jail. Sounds like a good deal to me, as long as you have the guts to take the risk. Keep in mind that you don't HAVE to kill them, in most cases you could just slash their arms or something and I doubt they will ever bother you again.

If you have a reasonable amount of skill you could also do something like pull a knife, then simply headbutt them. If the bully has any intelligence whatsoever he will then realize you could have killed him right then if you had wanted to, and he will probably run away never to return. The one thing which I don't recommend though is to just pull a knife when you have absolutely no intention of using it. I already said that earlier.

If it is just 2 dollars once then that's fine, I agree. But we never defined the particular kind of bullying taking place here. One type could be where you are bullied out of your lunch money EVERY day, I see this happening everywhere (it's never happened to me though even once). Another type could be where bullies regularly attack you and beat you unconscious. Etc etc. Certain things require a retaliation of some sort or at least a response.

Putting the knife issue aside though, let's just talk about fists. If you are completely unwilling to engage in physical violence...THAT's exactly what leads to bullies getting what they want. So if you just want them to step all over you, be my guest. If you are lucky, teachers and administrators and parents can solve the problem for you. But from my experience I've never seen that help once, not even in respectable schools.

Psycho101, I agree with what you said. Above I already posted that my advice is not smart for ghetto schools like you went to. Lol. I gave different advice in that scenario, go back and check. Smile

Porcupine wrote:

I realize that a knife can easily kill. That is the point. It's a good way to stand up to a bully.

It's a good way to get 25 years to life. I'm sorry but if you kill somebody you're going to jail for murder. And if you go to jail for murder your life is sewed because nobody in their right mind is going to hire someone who spent 25 years for murder. If the bully hurting you, you have all the right to knock the daylights out of him, but you still don’t have the right to take another person's life. Because in the end, that person could be the worst person of all time, but his mother is going to be very convincing on the witness stand at your trail.

Porcupine wrote:

]I realize that a knife can easily kill. That is the point. It's a good way to stand up to a bully. You are showing them that their own actions endanger their own lives, which smart people realize to start out with (therefore they don't bully others). If they die in the process, so be it. Just make sure that you were really being bullied and that a lot of people knew about it, or else you would get into trouble. For example if you get bullied reasonably significantly several times and everyone knows, and no teachers or administrators do anything about it, and then you kill them with a knife, you might not even have to go to jail. Sounds like a good deal to me, as long as you have the guts to take the risk. Keep in mind that you don't HAVE to kill them, in most cases you could just slash their arms or something and I doubt they will ever bother you again.

If you have a reasonable amount of skill you could also do something like pull a knife, then simply headbutt them. If the bully has any intelligence whatsoever he will then realize you could have killed him right then if you had wanted to, and he will probably run away never to return. The one thing which I don't recommend though is to just pull a knife when you have absolutely no intention of using it. I already said that earlier.

If it is just 2 dollars once then that's fine, I agree. But we never defined the particular kind of bullying taking place here. One type could be where you are bullied out of your lunch money EVERY day, I see this happening everywhere (it's never happened to me though even once). Another type could be where bullies regularly attack you and beat you unconscious. Etc etc. Certain things require a retaliation of some sort or at least a response.

Putting the knife issue aside though, let's just talk about fists. If you are completely unwilling to engage in physical violence...THAT's exactly what leads to bullies getting what they want. So if you just want them to step all over you, be my guest. If you are lucky, teachers and administrators and parents can solve the problem for you. But from my experience I've never seen that help once, not even in respectable schools.

Psycho101, I agree with what you said. Above I already posted that my advice is not smart for ghetto schools like you went to. Lol. I gave different advice in that scenario, go back and check. Smile

Um... I don't think that was what Psycho was saying. By law, if someone is going after you with fists you can't grab a knife and slit their throat-- you have to use your fists. You can legally take away their weapon, but you can't use a weapon on a bully when they have nothing. There are other ways of standing up to bullies without using violence. If you have confidence and don't let them get to you they will stop. Bullies have low self esteem and want to take it out on others with low self esteem to make themselves feel better. You fail to realise that people grow up. The kids who bulled me in public school now stop by and talk to me in the mall. How is ending their life justifing the one who is harassing when they mature later in life? I think you should re-think your statement and realise that bringing a knife to school isn't going to shoo away the bullies-- you will get arrested.

hentai4me wrote:

I think the situation is far less serious here in the UK simply because teachers didn't traditionally turn a blind eye.

After reading this, I wanted to clarify something regarding what I've been saying.

Although I have been giving out extremely questionable "advice" on how I think bullies should be dealt with...it's by far NOT what I consider to be the ideal method.

The situation which hentai4me described in his UK school sounds EXCELLENT, to me. That, or something similar, is how it should be. The thing is that in the USA that is not how things are run, and even less so in Japan it seems.

I completely agree, the best solution is to have teachers and administrators not turn a blind eye (involving the parents can help as well, but more often than not the parents do not want to, or are unwilling to, cooperate). The teachers and administrators (or other students, as hentai4me described) must be the ones to enforce a pleasant and safe school environment. If they do that, then there's no need to do any of the crazy things I mentioned.

It's just that in the USA that almost never happens. Maybe selenta's elite high schools were like that, but none of my schools or colleges were. The need for stricter school policies should also extend to universities. There should be no such thing as sororities or fraternities or whatever they are called (I don't understand them because the university I went to did not have such things). There should be no hazing or 'pranks' allowed. One hazing incident and you face expulsion, etc. No drinking allowed on campus ever by minors. Note that even at my university students getting drunk everyday at the age of 17 is commonplace, and school officials turn an obvious blind eye.

Stricter school policies is the ideal solution. Not my crazy knife-wielding maniacal ideas. But with the complete lack of school safety enforcement in the USA (and probably Japan) students need to take things into their own hands if they are being bullied and want it to stop.

darkside, I'm no lawyer so what I say could be wrong, but I believe it is justifiable to use force, even deadly force in self-defense. Especially if you are a smaller guy or a girl. For example if a 250 pound linebacker were trying to rape or kill a 100 pound girl, and she slit his throat and killed him, I doubt she would get jail time.

Keep in mind that people being bullied are likely to be small physically, therefore what they do can be much more easily called self-defense.

Hrm, this gives me a more reasonable idea though. Maybe just carry something like pepper spray/mace. That's what some girls do I think. Just spray the bully when they come. That's way better. Yeah, that seems to be a much better suggestion than the knife thing. You should also carry a knife though in secret (don't take it out though) in case the pepper spray makes them mad and they try to kill you for real.

mistress_reebi wrote:

By law, if someone is going after you with fists you can't grab a knife and slit their throat-- you have to use your fists.

There's no law like that. A person being assaulted in the USA has the right to defend themselves via any reasonable means necessary. In the case of a 250 pound linebacker raping a 100 pound girl, I would think any deadly force the girl responds with would be acceptable. This would probably vary from state to state.

Also, I don't think it's that unreasonable to get into the habit of carrying weaponry, at least something like mace or pepper spray if you are a girl, is a bad idea. A number of adults do things like that. In college, a number of my friends carried pocketknives or folding/butterfly knives at all times. Although like I said before, I never/rarely did, so I don't even follow my own advice lol.

Don't most American high schools have zero tolerance policies? (if they find you with a "dangerous weapon" i.e. knife, gun, etc. you get expelled, even if you were using a knife for camping or something and forgot to take it out afterward)

Quote:

darkside, I'm no lawyer so what I say could be wrong, but I believe it is justifiable to use force, even deadly force in self-defense. Especially if you are a smaller guy or a girl. For example if a 250 pound linebacker were trying to rape or kill a 100 pound girl, and she slit his throat and killed him, I doubt she would get jail time.

Despite popular belief there is no self defense law. Federally anyway. States may vary as they have their own sovereign rights but most DO NOT have any true self defense rule. The basic rule of thumb is equal force. A 100lb girl can NOT slit the throat of some 250lb guy raping her. She would indeed be tried for second degree manslaughter. You may only use deadly force, or attempt to, in a situation when you are in fear for your own life. End of discussion. You may only defend yourself with equal force. No pulling a knife on a bully or pulling a gun on a guy with a knife. Equal force. You also can't keep stomping a mudhole in someone's face once they're incapacitated.

psycho 101 wrote:

The basic rule of thumb is equal force. A 100lb girl can NOT slit the throat of some 250lb guy raping her. She would indeed be tried for second degree manslaughter. You may only use deadly force, or attempt to, in a situation when you are in fear for your own life. End of discussion. You may only defend yourself with equal force. No pulling a knife on a bully or pulling a gun on a guy with a knife. Equal force. You also can't keep stomping a mudhole in someone's face once they're incapacitated.

I wonder what would you do if she happens to be your wife/girlfriend/mother/sister/daughter. Tell him to stop with a loudspeaker?

dormcat wrote:

psycho 101 wrote:

The basic rule of thumb is equal force. A 100lb girl can NOT slit the throat of some 250lb guy raping her. She would indeed be tried for second degree manslaughter. You may only use deadly force, or attempt to, in a situation when you are in fear for your own life. End of discussion. You may only defend yourself with equal force. No pulling a knife on a bully or pulling a gun on a guy with a knife. Equal force. You also can't keep stomping a mudhole in someone's face once they're incapacitated.

I wonder what would you do if she happens to be your wife/girlfriend/mother/sister/daughter. Tell him to stop with a loudspeaker?

Obviously not. You can use whatever force you need to escape but it can't exceed the amount of force being used. You can only do that when in fear of your own life. This might seem stupid but it keeps people from simply killing someone and claiming self defense. If that shit worked I'd have 4-5 people I'd be "self defencing" tomorrow. If you're Suzy the 15 year old and sick Uncle Ron decides to try out his pedo fantasies you can pull a knife to use a mean of escape. As in you may brandish it to get him to back off, even stab a leg or arm if he is beating you. You can not however slice him ear to ear or right in the chest. Then you're using unequal force. I'm sure a judge and jury would be lenient on the girl but if a situation like that happened she'd be up for possible 2nd degree manslaughter charges. At the very LEAST aggravated assault. I'm sure she'd get the minimum penalties and some counseling but she wouldn't get off scott free.

dormcat wrote:

psycho 101 wrote:

The basic rule of thumb is equal force. A 100lb girl can NOT slit the throat of some 250lb guy raping her. She would indeed be tried for second degree manslaughter. You may only use deadly force, or attempt to, in a situation when you are in fear for your own life. End of discussion. You may only defend yourself with equal force. No pulling a knife on a bully or pulling a gun on a guy with a knife. Equal force. You also can't keep stomping a mudhole in someone's face once they're incapacitated.

I wonder what would you do if she happens to be your wife/girlfriend/mother/sister/daughter. Tell him to stop with a loudspeaker?

Heh I don't know but that is the lovely U.S. for ya. I agree with you dormcat I would be on the womens side, but the law just sees it as what it is even though it was self defense.

The general rule for your own protection from the law is to use equal force and deadly force when nessicary (like psycho and others said), be sure not to cross any lines...like stabbing a bully to death. I would suggest calling the cops, I say that because in most cases it does work. Sometimes people get stuck in bad situaions and choices are limited. I guess you should just ask yourself "do I really need to use deadly force to end this, do I really need to bring a weapon to school to end this, or can this be solved by other means". Really if you are going to bring a weapon you might as well fight them of the schools premises.

Truthfully at the school I went to in Orlando if you called the cops on the person messing with you, many more people would pick on you calling you a wuss. This happend to a kid who was afraid he was going to get jumped and couldn't take it anymore (and really say I blame him, the ones picking on him were a shadey bunch). But also at that school fighting fairly was sort of upheld, I remember this one fight where this kid got angry because this other guy was hitting on his girlfriend (well that is how he took at least) and they started to box in the parking lot. Not long after it started the kid with the girlfrend started to lose so he grabbed the guy by his hair and pulled a Mike Tyson (bit a pieace of the guys ear off) then the crowd of about 5 people who were watching and were on the kids side (to some degree) jumped the kid and helped get him off the other guy. So depending on your surroundings fighting fair may be in your best interest. Wink

psycho 101 wrote:

I'd have 4-5 people I'd be "self defencing" tomorrow.

Despite the tone of this thread that made me chuckle. Also makes a good point to why some laws are the way they are, course that isn't to say are laws are perfect, personally there is room for some revision in many of are laws...guess thats true for most governments though, I don't think there will ever be perfect laws.

Edit: Well psycho posted before me so I had to edit some stuff that he went over.

Quote:

Despite the tone of this thread that made me chuckle. Also makes a good point to why some laws are the way they are, course that isn't to say are laws are perfect, personally there is room for some revision in many of are laws...guess thats true for most governments though, I don't think there will ever be perfect laws.

Edit: Well psycho posted before me so I had to edit some stuff that he went over.

Unfortunetly there's always a few jack asses ruining it for everyone. If a law seems silly just remember some dumb ass did something so wrong or stupid to warrant this law being made. Really raises your hope for society doesn't it? There are no perfect laws, that is 100% correct and so true. No law, law system, or government is perfect. There's always work to be done and positive changes to be made. I will say despite it's flaws anyone who says the American law system is "the worst ever" needs to live in some other countries first. There's a lot of crap tolerated here that would not be elsewhere in the world. As you said Omar there's always room for revisions and positive change.[/quote]

gomen... the link I sent didn't work (I'm new to myspace), and I'm sorry for offending people by calling this a blog (OMG!). as a personal note, for the asian thing I meant that it seems like a japanese student would have found the discussion now that it's 6 pages long, not that there no asian people in here. I was simply commenting that there's alot of specualtion and very little eyewitness accounts from japanese students themselves... (before you say that I'm not mention students of any other country remember the title of the discussion)

dormcat wrote:

psycho 101 wrote:

The basic rule of thumb is equal force. A 100lb girl can NOT slit the throat of some 250lb guy raping her. She would indeed be tried for second degree manslaughter. You may only use deadly force, or attempt to, in a situation when you are in fear for your own life. End of discussion. You may only defend yourself with equal force. No pulling a knife on a bully or pulling a gun on a guy with a knife. Equal force. You also can't keep stomping a mudhole in someone's face once they're incapacitated.

I wonder what would you do if she happens to be your wife/girlfriend/mother/sister/daughter. Tell him to stop with a loudspeaker?

that would get the cops there, but in my area they wouldn't be arresting the rapist unless he was black, and they'd be arresting you for public disturbance... please note again that I've got nothing against black men, but it's a known fact that police are more brutal to them then to white men, and I live in a VERY white area.

furthermore would somebody please tell me the difference between a blog and a froum? it's really not my fault that I'm new to this[/quote]

inuyasha128b wrote:

furthermore would somebody please tell me the difference between a blog and a froum? it's really not my fault that I'm new to this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blog
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_forum

psycho 101 wrote:

Quote:

darkside, I'm no lawyer so what I say could be wrong, but I believe it is justifiable to use force, even deadly force in self-defense. Especially if you are a smaller guy or a girl. For example if a 250 pound linebacker were trying to rape or kill a 100 pound girl, and she slit his throat and killed him, I doubt she would get jail time.

Despite popular belief there is no self defense law. Federally anyway. States may vary as they have their own sovereign rights but most DO NOT have any true self defense rule. The basic rule of thumb is equal force. A 100lb girl can NOT slit the throat of some 250lb guy raping her. She would indeed be tried for second degree manslaughter. You may only use deadly force, or attempt to, in a situation when you are in fear for your own life. End of discussion. You may only defend yourself with equal force. No pulling a knife on a bully or pulling a gun on a guy with a knife. Equal force. You also can't keep stomping a mudhole in someone's face once they're incapacitated.

That's quite interesting, the UK does have a self defence law and that basically allows you to use any force you deem necessary to incapacitate your assailant, as long as it is the minimum necessary force. The onus lies on being able to prove that you used necessary force from your standpoint at the time and that the force you used was aimed ONLY to incapacitate. Basically if I knock the attacker to the floor and could run away that is the maximum force I am allowed to use, as the attacker is incapacitated enough for me, or others, to escape danger. If instead I broke the attackers leg when it is clear merely knocking over would have sufficed I would be liable for assault, battery, GBH or ABH.

Porcupine wrote:

darkside, I'm no lawyer so what I say could be wrong, but I believe it is justifiable to use force, even deadly force in self-defense. Especially if you are a smaller guy or a girl. For example if a 250 pound linebacker were trying to rape or kill a 100 pound girl, and she slit his throat and killed him, I doubt she would get jail time.

Unless someone is one sick individual rape is probably not going to be a bully tactic (somebody probably has done it and if they have they should be shot). If a 100 pound girl is being raped or killed by a 250 pound linebacker I don’t care if she uses a Tommy gun that guy gets what’s coming to him.

psycho 101 wrote:

She would indeed be tried for second degree manslaughter

True, but considering she was in the right and the because of a double standard (male vs. female, female is always in the right) she probably end up with probation (it may not be right sometimes but that’s how it goes).

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