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GATSU
Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 15471
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Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 5:04 pm
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GeorgeC: I didn't expect him to be bitter, but his lack of cynicism about the biz in that profile is just off-putting.
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Levitz9
Joined: 06 Feb 2007
Posts: 1022
Location: Puerto Rico
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Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 10:07 am
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GeorgeC wrote: |
He was his own person and very much the type that walked to the beat of his own drum... That is something to be admired not disrespected! |
'
Oh, no--make no mistake! I don't judge people on their philosophies! I respect a person that can stick to their guns! It's like what GATSU says: he came off as more than a bit resentful later on.
I can imagine why: after all of the effort he put into Proteus, Tokyopop came around and just demonstrated how his level of care and effort was "unnecessary" in the face of "authenticity".
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Cptn_Taylor
Joined: 08 Nov 2013
Posts: 925
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Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 12:00 pm
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Levitz9 wrote: |
GeorgeC wrote: |
He was his own person and very much the type that walked to the beat of his own drum... That is something to be admired not disrespected! |
'
Oh, no--make no mistake! I don't judge people on their philosophies! I respect a person that can stick to their guns! It's like what GATSU says: he came off as more than a bit resentful later on.
I can imagine why: after all of the effort he put into Proteus, Tokyopop came around and just demonstrated how his level of care and effort was "unnecessary" in the face of "authenticity". |
If fans wanted authenticity they should have bought the japanese manga versions directly. Can't get more authentic than that.
I know I'll get a lot of flak for saying this, but I hate reading translated manga the japanese way. And the reason I hate it is because english/spanish/french/italian/german are all languages that are written and read left to right. Why do you think books are made to be read from left to right in the americas and Europe ?
Reading a translated manga right to left is like asking a japanese to read a translated european comic left to right. It is an unnecessary burden.
The flow of reading is determined by the way the language flows.
Toren Smith understood this, hence why he always translated japanese manga for a western audience. We naturally read from left to right. I remember enjoying reading appleseed the western way, and nausicaa the western way and akira the western way. Fans who wouldn't recognise a professional looking product standing right in front of them decided that "purity" was the way to go and professional translatation/adaptation and layout be damned.
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TokyoGetter
Joined: 28 Nov 2006
Posts: 416
Location: CA. You can tell by the low moral standards.
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Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 5:13 pm
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This is a stand-out episode.
I love the way Lea talks; you can tell she puts her heart into her work, which is a risky thing to do, but she's also funny and honest.
Great job this week. And thanks Lea!
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rinmackie
Joined: 05 Aug 2006
Posts: 1040
Location: in a van! down by the river!
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Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 7:16 pm
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Cptn_Taylor wrote: |
Levitz9 wrote: |
GeorgeC wrote: |
He was his own person and very much the type that walked to the beat of his own drum... That is something to be admired not disrespected! |
'
Oh, no--make no mistake! I don't judge people on their philosophies! I respect a person that can stick to their guns! It's like what GATSU says: he came off as more than a bit resentful later on.
I can imagine why: after all of the effort he put into Proteus, Tokyopop came around and just demonstrated how his level of care and effort was "unnecessary" in the face of "authenticity". |
If fans wanted authenticity they should have bought the japanese manga versions directly. Can't get more authentic than that.
I know I'll get a lot of flak for saying this, but I hate reading translated manga the japanese way. And the reason I hate it is because english/spanish/french/italian/german are all languages that are written and read left to right. Why do you think books are made to be read from left to right in the americas and Europe ?
Reading a translated manga right to left is like asking a japanese to read a translated european comic left to right. It is an unnecessary burden.
The flow of reading is determined by the way the language flows.
Toren Smith understood this, hence why he always translated japanese manga for a western audience. We naturally read from left to right. I remember enjoying reading appleseed the western way, and nausicaa the western way and akira the western way. Fans who wouldn't recognise a professional looking product standing right in front of them decided that "purity" was the way to go and professional translatation/adaptation and layout be damned. |
But it messes with the artwork, right hands become left hands, for example. The creator who did "Blade of the Immortal" comics redrew panels for the Western audience. If he hadn't, all the reverse swastikas would have looked like Nazi swastikas. But this was back in the 90's before they starting publishing manga the Japanese way.
Also, it's not that hard to learn to read right to left. I've done it for so long, I have to remind myself to read the other way whenever I read a Western comic book. And no, it's not easier because I'm younger. I'm older than most of the people on this forum.
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enurtsol
Joined: 01 May 2007
Posts: 14872
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Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 10:20 pm
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Cptn_Taylor wrote: |
I know I'll get a lot of flak for saying this, but I hate reading translated manga the japanese way. And the reason I hate it is because english/spanish/french/italian/german are all languages that are written and read left to right. Why do you think books are made to be read from left to right in the americas and Europe ?
Reading a translated manga right to left is like asking a japanese to read a translated european comic left to right. It is an unnecessary burden. |
Well, there's already a small ongoing debate in Japan:
- Known for his outspoken apprehensions about the future of the manga industry, Takekuma feels the best way to boost overseas sales is not by focusing on preexisting hard-core fans, but instead by creating works that are appealing and accessible to ordinary readers who aren’t necessarily Japanophiles. To that end, he has been pushing for a shift to laying out panels for reading from left to right, even in their Japanese-language versions. Takekuma points out that English and Chinese, the two most-used languages on the planet, are commonly read from left to right.
Of course, after decades and decades of right-to-left layouts, not everyone is onboard. Takekuma decries how many manga producers have become set in their ways, resting on their laurels while clinging to what he says is the false belief that manga is so superior to other forms of comics that new readers abroad will put in the time to remap their reading patterns. “I’d go so far as to say the industry is being insanely short-sighted,” he remarks.
On the other side of the debate is manga critic Go Ito, whose rebuttal is that there’s nothing wrong with simply laying out English versions of manga by using a mirror-image of the original artwork. Ito holds that the best way to promote manga abroad is by focusing on quality translations. As for being short-sighted, he says the label is more appropriate for Takekuma, as the right-to-left layout simplifies the process of producing renditions of manga in Arabic, which is read in that direction.
Also participating in the discussion were manga artists Kota Hiroano, whose title Hellsing scored a major hit with fans in the English-reading world, and Masami Yuki, of Patlabor and Birdy the Mighty fame. Yuki feels that Takekuma may have a point, but Hirano takes issue with Takekuma’s assertation that artists should be able to immediately break from years of ingrained artistic philosophy, saying that the left-to-right advocate is acting like a mad scientist from one of Yuki’s sci-fi manga.
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Mister Ryan Andrews
Joined: 28 Jan 2014
Posts: 219
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Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 11:08 pm
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enurtsol wrote: | Well, there's already a small ongoing [url=/2013/04/29/manga-critic-calls-for-revolution-wants-japanese-comics-to-read-from-left-to-right/]debate in Japan[/url]:
- Known for his outspoken apprehensions about the future of the manga industry, Takekuma feels the best way to boost overseas sales is not by focusing on preexisting hard-core fans, but instead by creating works that are appealing and accessible to ordinary readers who aren’t necessarily Japanophiles. To that end, he has been pushing for a shift to laying out panels for reading from left to right, even in their Japanese-language versions. Takekuma points out that English and Chinese, the two most-used languages on the planet, are commonly read from left to right.
Of course, after decades and decades of right-to-left layouts, not everyone is onboard. Takekuma decries how many manga producers have become set in their ways, resting on their laurels while clinging to what he says is the false belief that manga is so superior to other forms of comics that new readers abroad will put in the time to remap their reading patterns. “I’d go so far as to say the industry is being insanely short-sighted,” he remarks.
On the other side of the debate is manga critic Go Ito, whose rebuttal is that there’s nothing wrong with simply laying out English versions of manga by using a mirror-image of the original artwork. Ito holds that the best way to promote manga abroad is by focusing on quality translations. As for being short-sighted, he says the label is more appropriate for Takekuma, as the right-to-left layout simplifies the process of producing renditions of manga in Arabic, which is read in that direction.
Also participating in the discussion were manga artists Kota Hiroano, whose title Hellsing scored a major hit with fans in the English-reading world, and Masami Yuki, of Patlabor and Birdy the Mighty fame. Yuki feels that Takekuma may have a point, but Hirano takes issue with Takekuma’s assertation that artists should be able to immediately break from years of ingrained artistic philosophy, saying that the left-to-right advocate is acting like a mad scientist from one of Yuki’s sci-fi manga.
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Yes, clearly it's the panel layout that keeps manga niche in America. I mean, just look at all the comic books that sell millions of cop-oh wait. Or maybe it has to do with America not being a comic culture like Japan is. Expecting Japanese sales for a comic in America is a pipedream. The culture is just too different. Calling for some huge renovation of the industry is just stupid and just likely to cause it to crash and burn.
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Hellfish
Joined: 19 Dec 2007
Posts: 391
Location: Mexico
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Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 1:16 am
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Leah Hernandez is one of those creators I wish I did follow more, I just realized she had some crowdfunding projects until today
And hell that General Products tale was really something, I know it can be hard and discouraging to get into a project that doesn't turn right but to be in one that flopped as hard as that one... :S
And I think this would be a really great time to re-read killer princesses and Clockwork Angels.
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walw6pK4Alo
Joined: 12 Mar 2008
Posts: 9322
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Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 2:32 am
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Mister Ryan Andrews wrote: | Yes, clearly it's the panel layout that keeps manga niche in America. I mean, just look at all the comic books that sell millions of cop-oh wait. Or maybe it has to do with America not being a comic culture like Japan is. Expecting Japanese sales for a comic in America is a pipedream. The culture is just too different. Calling for some huge renovation of the industry is just stupid and just likely to cause it to crash and burn. |
And it's not like it takes any kind of freaking mental fortitude to read an unflopped manga. As far as I'm concerned, it's a dead argument and flopping does absolutely nothing to "enhance" the experience for us Westerners. Unflopping just means that the art will always be viewed as the artist intended, otherwise you'd need to preserve that by constantly redrawing shit and what a waste of everyone's time that would be. I'm sure any Japanese that read American comics don't debate flopped versus unflopped because it's:
AN NON-ISSUE.
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StudioToledo
Joined: 16 Aug 2006
Posts: 847
Location: Toledo, U.S.A.
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Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 6:22 pm
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Soundmonkey44 wrote: | It's true. Things don't change at all. Fans of all things will forever be horrible. *le sigh*
Not all fans true, but far too many. |
No rubber Godzilla hand puppets for us!
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theDivaLea
Joined: 08 Mar 2014
Posts: 2
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Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 12:03 am
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The year I worked for Gainax, Toren and I often butted heads. We were both stressed out by Gainax failing at every turn to make a go of General Products USA.
Toren and I became better friends years after Gainax, and eventually I worked regularly for him. He took care of the people he cared about. He advanced me the pay for several issues of lettering to help me make a down payment on a house and buy a washing machine. He sent my daughter funny pictures. When I was diagnosed with bipolar disorder, he sent me all the books on the subject he found helpful. (Toren was diagnosed with bipolar disorder some time before I was diagnosed in January 2007.)
The state manga in the US fell into because of Tokyopop cheapening the market left Toren in despair. Objectively, TPop books looked like shit (although some were blessed with good writers willing to work for rates that impoverished the people like me who'd helped grow the market). The standards for manga were lowered, and TPop flooding the market (and idiot retailers buying it) crippled the market for a while. It's still not what it was.
I missed a lot of Toren's rants on Livejournal, and I don't care to read them now. I always wanted manga unflopped (even though I made good money retouching flopped manga!), but I felt as Toren did that good localization in writing and retouch was a must.
Toren was not an easy person to know, but he was, in the end, a really good guy.
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gatotsu911
Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Posts: 457
Location: US of East Coast
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Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 3:52 am
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Hearing about early Gainax's horrific lack of coordination and business savvy gives me newfound hope for my own creative endeavors down the road.
(Barely even joking here.)
Anyway, it always interests me to get inside stories from people who were involved in various ways with Ground Zero of the American anime industry, during a time when it was small enough that the distance between production companies, fan communities and distribution firms was seemingly much smaller than it's become today.
Has Matt Greenfield ever been on the show? Now there's an episode I'd like to hear.
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Levitz9
Joined: 06 Feb 2007
Posts: 1022
Location: Puerto Rico
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Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 10:22 am
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theDivaLea wrote: | The year I worked for Gainax, Toren and I often butted heads. We were both stressed out by Gainax failing at every turn to make a go of General Products USA.
Toren and I became better friends years after Gainax, and eventually I worked regularly for him. He took care of the people he cared about. He advanced me the pay for several issues of lettering to help me make a down payment on a house and buy a washing machine. He sent my daughter funny pictures. When I was diagnosed with bipolar disorder, he sent me all the books on the subject he found helpful. (Toren was diagnosed with bipolar disorder some time before I was diagnosed in January 2007.)
The state manga in the US fell into because of Tokyopop cheapening the market left Toren in despair. Objectively, TPop books looked like shit (although some were blessed with good writers willing to work for rates that impoverished the people like me who'd helped grow the market). The standards for manga were lowered, and TPop flooding the market (and idiot retailers buying it) crippled the market for a while. It's still not what it was.
I missed a lot of Toren's rants on Livejournal, and I don't care to read them now. I always wanted manga unflopped (even though I made good money retouching flopped manga!), but I felt as Toren did that good localization in writing and retouch was a must.
Toren was not an easy person to know, but he was, in the end, a really good guy. |
Thanks for that. You were lucky to have a friend like Smith, and he was lucky to work with someone as cool as you.
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