Forum - View topicBest World-Building Tournament: Concluded!
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Key
Moderator
Posts: 18462 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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Round 5: Group Finals is now open!
All four finals in one shot! You’ve had a chance to see each of these progress through several rounds of discussion, so I expect to see some good arguments. Group A Final Twelve Kingdoms, The Twelve Kingdoms vs. World of Wolf’s Rain, Wolf’s Rain Group B Final New Yogo Empire, Moribito – Guardian of the Spirit vs. Amestris, Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood Group C Final Gold Crown Town, Princess Tutu vs. Prester, Last Exile Group D Final Legend of GH Milky Way, Legend of the Galactic Heroes vs. Daikuuriku, Simoun |
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Animegomaniac
Posts: 4159 |
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As if I'm going to let that one go. I have seen both series and I seriously considered the merits of both but then realized the most I remember about the Humankind Empire Abh was on a five member spaceship set placed in the lower rung of command and that was the second season. Before that is everyone reacting to representatives from the Abh Empire, the main presentation of the first season. That's the Humankind Empire Abh as it's staged for the audience, when it's not a meeting between admirals or a strategy discussion between two princes or a war that manages to out perform Star Trek in the "technology marches on! And it's boring!" department {Why mines of all things?}. I've said sometime during this tournament I wouldn't vote for Star Wars or Star Trek for their vague space setting of Empire! and Federation! and I would hardly turn around and say that a mash-up of the two would be a final contender. Is Gold Crown Town as in depth? No {and that's an emphatic "no"} but its presentation/plot explains why its setting is more cosmetic than historic. And its Bavarian European heritage is a lot more appealing for me than the "Empire that never shows up". My presentation is always flippant but the thinking behind it is not. Also, when the synopsis uses a description that I equated with a joke - "space elves"- you have to expect people not taking it as seriously. Because Space Elves are Vulcans. I can give points to the series for making them "genetically altered humans" but that's only done so they could have the main characters marry rather than just have genuine alien species come together to produce a genetically viable half breed {Yeah, "Spock" goodness}. And if that is the main reason for making them actual humans with genetically altered cosmetic properties rather than "human like" aliens, it's still not good "world building" as its all done for the benefit of the two main characters getting together in the end. |
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Key
Moderator
Posts: 18462 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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Sounds like you entirely missed or ignored Crest of the Stars, where much of what makes the Abh Empire distinctive is hashed out in great detail.
And yet you gave the LoGH setting, which does almost precisely the same thing, a pass so you could vote against the GitS:SAC setting.
Really like to see you explain how you think the "Empire never shows up" in Crest/Banner. They go to great pains, in fact, to show the scope of the Empire throughout the franchise. (And I will freely admit that the lack of doing so is a prominent fault of both Star Trek and Star Wars, BTW.)
They aren't just cosmetically altered, as (amongst other things) they are genetically engineered to be more resistant to G forces and live considerably longer. And yes, this is specifically said in the franchise. You are also entirely discounting the language issue and the differing cultural and attitudinal standards which are very carefully spelled out. But enough of that. As I said, I'm not going to let things happen the same way this week without a fight. Group A Final Twelve Kingdoms, The Twelve Kingdoms vs. World of Wolf’s Rain, Wolf’s Rain Been voting against Wolf's Rain the whole time as being vastly overrated, and see no reason to change that when it's facing one of the tournament's top contenders. I don't know that The Twelve Kingdoms necessarily wins it all (although the setting on the C/D side that I wold have taken over it has now been eliminated), but it is too well-explored, too well-developed, and too culturally distinctive for any vote against it to be reasonable. Don't find the setting unique enough? That's irrelevant given how well and thoroughly it explains itself, and it's not like WoWR has any edge in originality by comparison. Group B Final New Yogo Empire, Moribito – Guardian of the Spirit vs. Amestris, Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood New Yogo Empire is the only remaining entry that I might consider choosing over 12 Kingdoms. It is less expansive but goes into even greater detail about its narrower setting and explores some concepts not commonly dealt with in fantasy series, such as cultural drift, the politicization of history, and the way that customs and songs passed down through generations can be used to puzzle out historical mysteries. It also does a fantastic job of integrating in its spirit world and making it look special. Amestris is worthy to get this far, but it has no stronger historical context than NYE does, the way alchemy shapes things is no more special than what the spirit world ends up being in NYE, and its cultural development is no more distinct. And it can't hold a candle to NYE when it comes to architecture. Group C Final Gold Crown Town, Princess Tutu vs. Prester, Last Exile This may be the only vote that Prester gets, but I am still going with them. If it's good enough to get this far then it's good enough to take down GCT, as the peculiarities of its setting are no less intrinsic to the story and it has the major plus of all-original airship designs. Group D Final Legend of GH Milky Way, Legend of the Galactic Heroes vs. Daikuuriku, Simoun Has anyone participating in the tournament actually seen both of these? I have pretty much respected LoGH so far, based on everything that others have said about it, but here it faces its stiffest opponent. And, honestly, I don't think even its expansive setting can overcome the utterly unique world that Simoun creates. Daikuuriku has some of the most fantastically original airships that you will ever see in animation (I'll dig up some pictures and post them later), a fully-developed religion, stark cultural differences both within the main country of Simulacrum and without, a great sense of lost history, and of course its ultimate trump card in the way gender is handled in the setting. No other setting I have ever encountered, in animation or not, explores what it means to choose one's gender - what goes into the thought processes for making such a decision, how traumatic it can be, what the consequences of choosing (or not choosing) are, how those choices affect characters in the long term - to even remotely close to the degree that this one does. For LoGH's setting to deserve a win here, its supporters are going to have to show that it can offer something which trumps what Daikuuriku offers. |
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marie-antoinette
Posts: 4136 Location: Ottawa, Canada |
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Group A Final
World of Wolf’s Rain, Wolf’s Rain As always, I completely disagree with everything Key has to say about Wolf's Rain . This world is complex and layered, with a lot of obvious thought going into it and it has the execution in it's world building to back this all up. There is a lot about this world that isn't spelled out, which makes the series that much more engaging, as each time you watch it you can pick out something new. 12 Kingdoms has a great concept but it's execution isn't nearly as strong. It's writing just can't compete with what Wolf's Rain offers in this department, making this a very easy vote for me. Group B Final Amestris, Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood I may change my mind on this one later, since I haven't seen enough of either series to fully judge, but this world just strikes me as having a bit more originality to it. Group C Final Prester, Last Exile Prester is going to get at least two votes, since I do think the limitations in scope do eventually hurt Gold Crown Town. Plus, Prester is a world that has left an impression on me, enough that Last Exile has made it on my to-watch list because of it (and because of a co-worker's recommendation, though that didn't come until after this tournament had begun). Group D Final Legend of GH Milky Way, Legend of the Galactic Heroes Simoun is also on my to-watch list now, especially since I do now own it. And might be able to watch some of it before this round is over, time allowing. But the Legend of GH world gets the edge for me because of past arguments and the fact that it has time to go further in it's scope, to create a full galaxy. |
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zawa113
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Group A Final: Twelve Kingdoms
I personally think the final should be Twelve Kingdoms and Milky Way, not sure who I'd pick there, but here, Twelve Kingdoms. I really wish we'd gotten more anime for it, there's like, 11 novels out there, aren't there? But even for what was adapted, it's simply amazing. Group B Final: Amestris Clearly adding politics to a world really helps things. I'll admit that while I like the first series better, the second series (or the manga, as I read it) clearly has the better setting with more depth and conflict. Group C Final: Gold Crown Town Seeing how I was the one nay-say against Prester last time, because the series as a whole never impressed me and the setting didn't make up for it, this should be no surprise. Of course, I also think Gold Crown Town is one of the strongest competitors, unlike any other show, it's really a character unto its own, which is unusual in itself. But the very nature of the land itself is such an important aspect of the story that it simply couldn't exist without it exactly the way it is. Group D Final: Milky Way If you're curious, Key, I've seen both of these series for this particular match up. They're both damn good series, among the best I've ever seen period. This is what I think is the strongest scifi space setting in the entire tourney, period. I don't normally think that episodes that exist to give back story on the world should be considered a good idea, but the history lesson on the Earth Terraists was informative and awesome. Daikuuriku might have an expansive religion, but LoGH has a crazed religious group that wants to make Earth the center of its galaxy again and there's a whole arc about it and we see the history of how it came to be. I'll admit, we typically only see a part of a single planet, not usually the whole thing, and planets in general tend to belong to either the Alliance or the Empire, but planets, even within one side, are clearly different, in both technology and setting. The series clearly wants you to know its geography, much like how the Game of Thrones intro wants you to. And it's vast, logical, it's just really damn good. But I'll admit, Daikuuriku's gender thing is damn unique, no doubt about that. I will say that people in the LoGH Milky Way can choose to defect to the other side and indeed do, two top advisors in the Alliance came from the Empire (they still wear their Empire clothes for whatever reason though). But the different sides use different tactics, have different politics involved with the position, and have a similarity in that both sides frequently drink wine during their meetings. Daikuuriku is a strong opponent, no mistake about that, but I do have to give the edge to the Milky Way on this one Hardest of the finals decisions for me. But seeing either one go on won't make me sad. I think Daikuuriku might be more unique, but LoGH is more fully realized and built up. So despite Daikuuriku's uniqueness, I think LoGH's vast scope that is realized wins it out for me. |
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rheiders
Posts: 1137 Location: Colorful Colorado :) |
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To make up for completely forgetting about this last week, I'll vote earlier than usual. xD I'm glad Prester made it through without my help, but I'm a bit sad I wasn't able to shorten the gap between LoGH and Japan 2030 just a bit.
Group A Final World of Wolf’s Rain, Wolf’s Rain I would be happy with either going on, but I have to give the edge to WWR because, unlike Key, I think it is more unique and better executed than 12K. I've never seen anything like the flawless combination of fantasy, theology, and post-apocalyptic sci-fi found in Wolf's Rain, whereas I have seen pseudo-Chinese fantasy worlds similar to 12K's. It's also rare to see non-human characters with such thoroughly non-human traits that are still as fleshed out as the wolves are. This can also be said of the kirin, but while conceptually interesting, there's a reason the Taiki and Enki arcs are the weakest in the series. The kirin are little more than the concepts they embody, while the wolves and even the Nobles are wholly fleshed out, three-dimensional characters. Execution-wise, I had problems at times with how light-novelly 12K got, with characters literally sitting in a room and explaining the world to each other. Wolf's Rain, on the other hand, features some of the best and most natural writing I've ever seen in anime. Facts about the world are delivered subtly through natural conversation over the course of the series. There is very little straight-up exposition and definitely no "as you know" explanations. Group B Final Amestris, Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood By far the hardest match-up in the tournament thus far for me, and I am still very much on the fence here. I will be happy with whoever moves forward, and very sad about whoever gets voted out. That said, I think I'm going to give the edge to Amestris, simply because I am fascinated by the concept of alchemy and love how well-fleshed-out it is within the series. I wasn't as impressed by the magic/spirits of Shin-Yogo. Group C Final Prester, Last Exile I voted for it in a couple rounds, but for me GCT has been overrated throughout the tournament. It got this far due to its strong premise, but IMO that and a unique atmosphere were all it ever really had going for it. There were times when I was confused about elements of the series that seemed to pop up at random or didn't quite fit in with the rest of the world, which is not something I can say for many of the other contenders, Prester among them. Meanwhile, I consider Prester a very strong contender due to the interesting politics and technology, and an art style that matches these perfectly. Group D Final Daikuuriku, Simoun I have seen neither of these and may potentially change my vote depending on arguments. However, having looked through the write-ups and arguments for both settings, Daikuuriku seems to fit my personal criteria for good world-building better than LoGH (interesting/unique premise and execution, immersive writing and style--feels like a real place, rich and well-defined history, specific setting is crucial to the story that takes place there). |
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Key
Moderator
Posts: 18462 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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People continue to claim that Wolf's Rain's setting is so unique and special. But what, specifically, is so special and different that it deserves to win over 12K? Yes, the thing with the wolves being able to pass as human was interesting, but that was the only factor that stood out to me as distinctive about an otherwise-ordinary post-apocalyptic setting. (And the fact that no other detail from that series sticks with me, regardless of my opinion of the series, is telling for me.) I even went back and read a pre-ANN review I did of the series back at the time it was airing on Cartoon Network (if you want to see how much better my reviewing has gotten over time, check this one out), and in that the setting and world-building didn't make enough of an impression to even warrant a mention - and that was right after I finished watching it out. Nothing WWR supporters can say has even the faintest chance of changing my vote on that match-up, but I am still interested in seeing if a stronger argument in favor of WWR exists than the tepid ones I have seen so far. (Oh, and rheiders, you forgot to add the word "ponderous" to your critique of its writing.)
Concerning Amestris: What politics does it have? There is a conflict in the government between objectively good guys and objectively evil guys. That's not politics, nor anything special narratively. New Yogo Empire doesn't have a lot of internal politics, but it does have some and they're stronger than what Amestris offers. And let's be frank here: alchemy is just magic in different terms. That doesn't make the power use in the series all that special. If people who are voting for Amestris have completely watched out Moribito and are still voting for Amestris, I'd like to see that mentioned. (It sounds like rheiders has, but it doesn't seem like the others have.) classicalzawa: Thanks for the detailed write-up, as that's exactly what I was looking for. Still doesn't change my mind that I'm making the right choice there, and I think a point could be argued that Simoun's complete lack of info-dumping in its execution might be an advantage for it. Still, sounds like LoGH is something that would probably interest me if it wasn't so intimidatingly long, as I typically like the kind of setting exploration that you're describing. |
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zawa113
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^ Yeah, I'll admit that LoGh can have some info dumps, yet I never recall them ever feeling like info dumps is the weird thing. It doesn't generally info dump on the series' modern world (no more than a few sentences), just history lessons. Honestly, I was expecting the series to pull back to some historian reading a book, lol.
As for the length being intimidating well... I used to think that too. Then, once I got into it (which I hear takes some people the better part of a season but only took me like, 4 episodes), it quickly becomes apparent that 110 episodes is too short if anything. You could always start with the movies, specifically go with the My Conquest is the Sea of the Stars movie first, then the Overture to a New War movie (which is actually a retelling/expansion of the first two eps, so when you start the series, you can skip the first two eps). I would say that, for anyone, this should reduce the intimidation, try these two movies, see if you're interested, then if you are, the series is addicting as all hell and 110 eps will go by faster than you can imagine. If the length is still intimidating even after the movies, think of it as four separate seasons. I also remembered all the time I wasted on Bleach and DBZ, with its overuse of breathing heavily and staring at the screen sort of filler (even if I totally have a soft spot for it). You could definitely watch far worse series over the course of 110 episodes, keep that in mind. |
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marie-antoinette
Posts: 4136 Location: Ottawa, Canada |
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For uniqueness, Wolf's Rain has: a weird alchemy that allows a living flower to be created; the whole world of the nobles which, while not completely explained in the series, has a lot of interesting facets to it (and it's not explained in the good, open-ended interesting way); it has a great barren wasteland feel to it; and, of course, there is the whole mystery of "Paradise" itself, which gets especially interesting in the final episodes.
But really for me, it comes down to how much better the writing is in Wolf's Rain compared to 12 Kingdoms. There really is no comparison and that's what holds 12K back from being a great show for me. It had some great ideas but the way they are put together just feels a bit artificial to me. Wolf's Rain has a world that just makes more sense and has a more natural development, no exposition dumping required. |
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Aylinn
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Group A Final
Twelve Kingdoms, The Twelve Kingdoms vs. World of Wolf’s Rain, Wolf’s Rain Twelve Kingdoms It has done a nice job at world-building, no doubt about it. The link between politics and bestiary definitly make things intriguing. Group B Final New Yogo Empire, Moribito – Guardian of the Spirit vs. Amestris, Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood New Yogo Empire I have only skimmed through FMA manga, but I didn’t see there anything that would make it more interesting than Moribito’s world. I agree with Key that the fight between the good guys and the bad guys is not politics. And Moribito has all those things that makes its world rich culturally that are not present in Amestris. For sure, FMA has alchemy, but it works like magic and there are plenty of fantasy worlds with magic, so there is nothing special about it. Group C Final Gold Crown Town, Princess Tutu vs. Prester, Last Exile Prester I may change my mind, but I liked the idea enough to vote for it. Group D Final Legend of GH Milky Way, Legend of the Galactic Heroes vs. Daikuuriku, Simoun Legend of GH Milky Way It seems Daikuuriku is a good show and a strong contestant, but LOGH has a great world with the most complex politics I have seen in anime. |
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Key
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Posts: 18462 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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And I had the totally reverse reaction, as I found a lot (admittedly not all) of WR to be drudgery to watch, whereas I've never had that reaction to 12K, which is one of the series that I rewatch most frequently. Yes, 12K does have periods in it where it mostly just spends time explaining its setting, but this is almost always done in the context of educating characters new to the world (or new to the world beyond her own kingdom, as was the case with Shoukei), so doing so make plot sense. Hence it handles the info dumping better than most. I also found how 12K handles the age-old concept of the health of the land being directly linked to the wisdom of the ruler to be a particularly intriguing exploration that's hardly touched on elsewhere in anime and thought it had the most intriguing exploration of corruption in government at all levels that I have seen done in anime. EDIT: Corrected grammar errors. Last edited by Key on Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:09 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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marie-antoinette
Posts: 4136 Location: Ottawa, Canada |
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Yeah, we definitely had completely reverse reactions, since it took me a number of years to actually watch all of Twelve Kingdoms, whereas I've lost track of how many times I've seen Wolf's Rain (it's easily the anime that I have re-watched the most).
I do like 12K and it's world, which is why I've voted for it up to this point. But I love the world of Wolf's Rain and I don't think there is any anime contender out there that would make me vote against it. |
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rheiders
Posts: 1137 Location: Colorful Colorado :) |
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Actually, FMA:B and Moribito are both series I've re-watched very recently. (Well, to be precise, I've read the FMA manga recently, but it's the same thing.) I'm hardcore judging those who haven't seen both of these series, for the record.
It’s not so much the mechanics of alchemy that interest me, although I think its rules are laid out more concretely than Moribito’s magic; I like the way it’s thought of as a branch of science within Amestris. And with regard to politics in FMA:B, the homunculi may be purely evil (and frankly pretty boring, even if they can be entertaining to watch sometimes), but the homunculi aren’t the only important political and military figures in the series. I like how the border conflict with Drachma has shaped General Armstrong’s troops, for one thing, as well as the different ways different cultures view and teach alchemy. The Ishvalan conflict may have been started by obviously evil characters, but the soldiers and civilians involved aren’t so black and white, which makes the conflict far more complex than it would otherwise have been (the Ishval flashback volume—15, I think?—is one of my favorites in the series).
Sorry, I've been finding it difficult to argue the quality of the execution because it's a much more intangible thing than simply describing how detailed a setting is. Unfortunately, I'm just not a very good writer, especially on the fly and without going back to re-watch episodes and such^^; But I'll try. marie-antoinette pointed out some interesting things about WWR, but I think the parts that most fascinate me are Paradise itself and the pagan religion surrounding the search for it, and the Nobles, especially the Darcia family. As is the show's wont, almost nothing about the Nobles is ever spelled out directly for the audience except that they rule the earthly world and are the polar opposite of the wolves. However, if one looks for it, there is a lot to them that is referred to or explained in a more subtle, round-about way within the story. This way, we learn what we need to know about the story and the world it takes place in, but the characters never have to turn to the camera and deliver walls of info-dump, allowing for the kind of natural-sounding dialogue that makes for a truly immersive experience, at least for me. Of course, this kind of thing is subjective, which is clear in that it didn’t work at all for Key, but it works so well for me that I can’t help but call it some of the best writing I’ve seen in anime. (That quality is also the reason Keiko Nobumoto is probably my favorite writer for anime.) Anyway, the Nobles are referred to throughout the series as "fallen Wolves", and at the end of the series when spoiler[Darcia uses the Nobles' strange alchemy to take on a wolf's form], he is trying to regain access to the Paradise he feels he deserves, a place Nobles can never go. Paradise sickness is an interesting inclusion to help give weight to the Nobles’ perversions and to flesh out the Darcias, who have had a big hand in most of the happenings in the series, including spoiler[the end of the world]. I really liked the subtle implication that the owl who keeps pestering the wolves is actually spoiler[Darcia I (same voice actor in both languages, a couple subtle hints at his fate in the dialogue)], since it’s never explicitly stated but once realized puts a lot of puzzle pieces in place about what, exactly, Paradise sickness is. And we can see the Nobles' worldliness in the way that the human subjects living under their rule are completely ignored by them, but are still subject to their shallow whims and petty squabbles, with the main characters themselves eventually getting wrapped up in the squabble between Orkham and Jaguara over territory, and then the conflict between Jaguara and Darcia over Jaguara’s vain attempt tospoiler[ create a false Paradise]. And of course the significant differences between Orkham's domed city, Darcia's castle, and Jaguara's keep is a more obvious example of strong world-building. That’s just one example out of many; I could just as easily have chosen the wolves, or the humans, or the Book of the Moon, or any of the individual places the characters visit, because they're all excellent IMO. Sorry if it's rambly and barely coherent^^; I'm really tired...
I don't think I can forget to include a critique I don't agree with.
For me, it doesn't really matter that there's a reason for the (sometimes really egregious) info-dumping. "The protagonist is not from this world" is exactly the same thing as "the protagonist is a new transfer student who knows nothing about this town" in my view--it's lazy writing, an easy excuse to exposit rather than let the world speak for itself. Now, it's usually plenty enough explanation for me with regards to enjoying the show/suspending disbelief (12K, like Wolf's Rain, is among my all-time favorite anime, after all), but this far in a tournament like this I consider it a flaw, especially considering its particular competition. I love both shows dearly, but it's that difference in writing style and quality that leads me to give the edge to WWR. |
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marie-antoinette
Posts: 4136 Location: Ottawa, Canada |
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I'm planning to watch both! Well, I'm more planning to finishing watching the original FMA (and I have to admit, I've been very curious about why the nomination here is for Brotherhood rather than the franchise) but close enough. Awesome write-up about the Nobles. Next time I watch the series, I plan to pay special attention to the "fallen wolves" thing, because the theory that the Nobles are all descended from wolves is really interesting and something I never picked up on. Which is another reason WR's worldbuilding is superiour to me, because in 12K they would have just had Rakashun say "Hey Youko, these Nobles are descended from wolves." |
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Animegomaniac
Posts: 4159 |
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Do you make a nice living at being wrong? Just curious. I don't know how in depth you would want me to go but you're insinuating that Olivia is every bit as "good" as her counterpart Mustang - this is the woman and general, a position with real power, in contention for the government leadership role after Grumman eventually retires who had no qualms having her Briggs troops {the distinction is oh so important to her} kill Central troops who were just following orders. Are you seriously saying a government led by her would have the same qualities as Mustang? Good god, the only reason she let Scar go was to scare the crap out of her "foe", I mean "ally". The good guys are not a unified force, it's the most extreme version of "clench teethed teramwork" that only works because they stay away from one another during the coup {which isn't politics. Yes, you are... what are you on? Really?}. The bad guys, Lust is Evil, the rest, not as much or even at all in the case of Sloth and Gluttony {wrong series!} and I wouldn't even consider the Dwarf in the Flask to have "black and white" morality. And yes, alchemy is magic but it is also science, it has rules, it has conditions and it has standards that fantasy magic never could even dream of obtaining. Lina Inverse just says "Fireball" and she's the terror of everyone. Here, first, you have to have the will, the talent and the knowledge and you are the equal of every other alchemist with equal knowledge. Now, there's technique and experience, those are the breaking points... You are serious considering Moribito to be its equal? How? There is more, there is always more... |
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