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grooven
Posts: 1428 Location: Canada |
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Krotchstak
Posts: 94 |
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I'm not entirely certain that you've ever played the Prime games, because (as Rahxephon91 notes) they're far from a typical FPS and because they preserve the character of the franchise far better than Other M does. This is especially true of the first Prime; part of the reason that game is held in such enormously high regard is that it managed to capture the "feeling" of Metroid games despite being in 3D and first-person. In fact, the stuff that most people associate with Metroid - atmosphere, visual storytelling, exploration, puzzle-solving, item hunting - was all present in Prime, and wasn't present at all in Other M. Unless you're one of those people who defines Metroid exclusively as "a third-person game that has Samus Aran in it", in which case I suppose I can see why you'd think Other M is more "Metroid" than the Prime games. (Please note: I'm not necessarily knocking you for disliking Prime, or preferring Other M. That's a matter of opinion, even if we couldn't disagree more. But claiming that Other M is "more of a Metroid game" just isn't true.)
I think it has something to do with Samus being a notably strong female character before this, and not a "strong female character" but a legitimately strong character who happened to be female. She was a gaming icon; the minimalism of past games allowed a certain degree of audience projection and assumption, and most people with a functioning brain took Samus to be badass and a bit of a lone wolf (because she took down planetary strongholds completely on her own). Most importantly, she wasn't subject to the huge number of ways that other games degrade women, even when it made the jump to 3D in the '00s. This game took an icon and destroyed what defined her to a lot of people, so people care more. And yes, she has been sexualized before, but sexualization doesn't necessarily equate to weakness (or sexism). If sexualization was the only problem with how Other M deals with Samus, it would be a non-issue, but it breaks her down completely as a character and makes her actively weak. |
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ParaChomp
 Posts: 1018 |
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As a fan of Other M, I completely understand where both sides are coming from. The gameplay is enjoyable but it is hindered by linearity, interruptions, and odd control scheme. As for Samus' portrayal in the game; this is what happens when you give a mute character a personality. In previous titles she did have monologues here and there but they were simple, bland, and gave no hints to her personality. Her personality was comparable to Mario's and with that in mind many portrayals could work (with the one in Other M obviously not matching what the majority of fans perceived). If you give me a counterargument of the cut-scenes in the franchise, they still didn't give character, they just set the tone and showed what was going on.
In all honesty, I wouldn't mind another game like Other M if it took notes from other titles in the franchise and Kid Icarus Uprising. An optional guiding system would be nice for beginners. We'll see what happens but what matters now is that the Wii U needs games badly. It's been on the market for over a year and has already been outsold by the Xbox One and Playstation 4! If you're a Metroid fan, pick up the Samus figma, I don't care how much you hate Other M, it's an awesome figurine. I like the word "personality." |
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Guile
Posts: 595 |
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Every set of numbers I've seen disagrees with you, but if you could cite where you got your numbers which says otherwise, I'd be interested in that.
I'm not sure what to say to this comment as it seems like it contradict itself. I would find it hard for anyone to argue her bikinis and the zero suit are not played up for sex appeal.
That is a bit of a giveme because Samus has never really interacted with men in any other game except from the Adam AI in Fusion. But if you go off that, then it mirrors what we see in Other M. As for being characterized as weak, the only real characterization we got is the manga where Ridley constantly torments Samus by reminding her that he ate her parents, and a few bits from a few games, such as Samus unable to kill the last baby Metroid in 2, and Samus spending most of the time vulnerable and being hunted down by the SA-X in Fusion.
I can not argue "feeling" because "feeling" is going to be different from person to person. What I can say is that Prime offered nothing to the series's storyline and what story it did have is never touched upon outside of its own sub-series. Zero Mission, Return of Samus, Super, Other M, and Fusion are all tied together and continue the storyline and character of Samus Aran. Prime does not touch on the story at all.
That is not a valid reasoning, nor is fan projection. Outside factors have no legitimate baring on a character. You keep repeating she was made 'weak', but there's been no indication how she was ever actually 'strong'. Actually, when I played Super as a kid the baby Metroid sacrificing itself to save Samus from Mother Brain at the end of Super was one of my sadder gaming memories. The fact it became an important plot point and gave Samus PTSD and survivor's guilt in the next game was a nice touch to me on a personal level given it also was a sad moment from my childhood. If I could argue feeling then I would say that did a good job capturing how I felt. I suppose if Samus was an emotional badass as people like to say she was, someone sacrificing themselves for her and her watching someone die would not phase her. Unfortunately she is not, and she has watched many people in her life be killed. Her parents, her colony, her 'baby', and then Adam. You kind of have to give her some slack for what she's been through. Though perhaps those themes are a bit too heavy for what some fans are able to accept from a Nintendo game. |
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FenixFiesta
Posts: 2581 |
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That's probably because Nintendo's Flagship system is in actuality the 3ds, Vita doesn't hold a candle to the 3DS and IOS games are usually noted as "casual games" that the average consumer will pay no more than $7 for an IOS release, yet same consumer will be more than willing to throw out $40 for Pokémon X/Y or the latest Zelda release for the 3ds. Everyone likes to point out the "poor console sales" of the Wii U, yet you just need to glance at the other Nintendo console and the Nintendo strategy doesn't seem so lazy. So to get back the threads current theme, if Nintendo wants to get the Metroid franchise back in the "game", they need to produce the next release for the 3DS and NOT the Wii U (unless Nintendo secretly is trying to bury Metroid). |
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Rahxephon91
 Posts: 1859 Location: Park Forest IL. |
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I mean you tried to say American's never cared about Metriod until Prime which is laughable on it's own. The 2d Metriod's have always been praised and cited as heavily influential. To say western gamers didn't care about them seems silly.
But anyway, that's really not even the problem people have with the game. |
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Krotchstak
Posts: 94 |
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Before I tackle the other stuff, 2 things regarding Prime:
1) Whatever else is being argued regarding American genre enjoyment, Rahxephon91 is correct in that Metroid was always more popular in America, even before the Prime games, which is why development of Prime was given to an American studio. In fact, Other M was likely an attempt to rope back in Japanese gamers, and it has been theorized that this is where at least part of Samus' portrayal came from. Also, Prime wasn't made in first person to appeal to an American audience - it actually began development in 3rd person, and Miyamoto himself mandated the switch (he had previously lobbied for Ocarina of Time, of all things, to be in 1st person). And even if Prime was made in first-person to appeal to an American FPS audience, it failed miserably. FPS gamers general disliked the game as a shooter because of its focus on exploration over shooting and its nonstandard control scheme. 2) Prime offered plenty to the overall lore. Yes, it cut out its own little corner of continuity, but it a) referenced past games regularly and b) built on pre-existing factors (Chozo and Space Pirates, specifically). Other M has, as a prequel, arguably the same impact - only the sheer level of contradictions that it presents to the games it happens after makes it quite a bit less skillful at it than Prime was, in my eyes. Okay. Onto the Other M stuff.
Look at it this way: Samus working independent from any sort of patriarchal government institution, subservient to nobody but herself, is a big part of why she is declared such a big win for women in games. The very absence of men in Metroid games is telling, as a lesser game might have given her a male commander or somesuch. But gender is never emphasized in any Metroid game (outside of post-game congratulatory screens), and that's kind of the point. Samus is who Samus is, man or woman. Then, Fusion introduced the Adam AI, but I don't agree that it mirrors anything from Other M (at least not in terms of Samus; Adam himself is a bit of a cipher in that game). Samus works (begrudgingly) with the AI, and actively against it (regularly detouring from its routes) once she starts to distrust it. The reveal that it is LITERALLY Adam happens towards the end and then they just work together, with none of the subservient nonsense that Other M presented.
Where her weakness is more forgivable as a) she's younger and b) she ultimately works past it within the pages of the same manga. Actually, that kinda makes the scene in Other M even worse; you need the manga to know what the hell is happening there, but if you've read the manga, then the scene is a completely redundant bit of character development done at a more inappropriate moment in her life. Nice one, Sakamoto!
Not weakness (since her not killing it is related neither to ability nor fear) but compassion. Great bit of visual storytelling, actually, and something that Other M directly contradicts; after all, in Super, she hands it off immediately to GF scientists, showing that the attachment that Other M claims she has just doesn't exist.
But she doesn't freak out (the games DO show her reacting to stuff, even if it's not a cutscene). She doesn't freeze up, she gets THE HELL out of there, even when it ambushes her. She's VULNERABLE, and maybe weaker ability-wise, but weak character-wise? Definitely not.
Give this a read (just the one page, starting from a third of the way down at the Why Do You Like This Scene? heading). These are all indications as to how she is strong, both physically and mentally and likely emotionally. It lays things out better than I ever could.
Completely agree. The Figma is awesome, I just wish it came with a little Metroid figure! |
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FenixFiesta
Posts: 2581 |
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Another problem that is obvious in Other M is that Samus is not the only character in the game, regardless of Samus' story there still needs to be a reason why the audience should care about the Space Marines "mysteriously" ending up dying one by one, yet frankly there isn't because it plays out like a really bad episode of CSI with a set of characters that is MUCH less charismatic.
Mass Effect 2 came out the same year as Other M, it doesn't matter if Wii is a "weaker console" than the Xbox 360, you can still have a much tighter script filled with voice acting that sounded like they gave a damned about the project they were working on, the game experience should have been better than just "feels like a Metroid game" it should have been an experience that made you proud to own a Wii in a similar vein to ME 2 as it is considered one of the best games of that generation (barring you don't completely hate FPS). If Other M wasn't a Metroid title, it would have been simply a forgettable gaming project with sci fi elements, and that is probably the greater reason why the fans that felt betrayed have such vocal hatred for Other M is because everyone deserved better, even the people that actually got some joy out of Other M. |
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Guile
Posts: 595 |
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The only citation on Wikipedia leads to a blog which also does not cite it's sources either.
Influential and praise does not mean anything. It's all about sales. Prime was the first Metroid game to sell the amount it did in America. The difference between the sales of Prime and the other games is noticeable.
I ask that you again please refrain from projecting your own thoughts onto her and the franchise. I do not care what you or other people consider her, I care what she actually is. The lack of men in Metroid games is not some political or gender statement, nor has the franchise ever had as such. What you interpret that as is irrelevant. The only theme the series has had has been motherhood and femininity which in reinforced throughout the series. However, that has nothing to do with feminism or misandry or anything of the sort.
I'm afraid it's hard to take any argument seriously when it begins with the phrase 'this is objectively bad', but even after giving it the benefit of the doubt I can say it's a flawed piece. It's comparing a Japanese video game to an American comic book. Samus is not a superhero, nor is she Superman or Batman. This blogger does not get to decide what is or isn't appropriate storytelling for the franchise. They say giving a hero PTSD is technically logical and acceptable but you can't do that because that's not what superheroes represent. That is easily countered by reminding them Metroid is not an superhero series nor is Samus a superhero. Or rather, I should say it's not an American superhero series, as there are Japanese superhero series that have featured characters who break down with PTSD and explore those themes, but I digress. Perhaps that is what it comes down to, though. Metroid is a Japanese game with Japanese storytelling. Understandably, there will be foreigners who will simply not 'get it' in a similar way most do not get anime. Given the blog, and people in general, compare Samus to Gordon Freeman, Master Chief, Chell, other American FPS heroes, I imagine American gamers had certain expectations of her. Flawed expectations, granted, given Metroid was originally not an FPS, but if they played Prime first and it's the most popular game in the west then that might mislead their view on the franchise into treating it like a shooter. Or perhaps they're not, if that's the future of the franchise from now on. As an aside, there is a Samus figure with a baby Metroid accessory, which is quite adorable. http://www.amiami.com/top/detail/detail?gcode=FIG-IPN-3176 |
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Rahxephon91
Posts: 1859 Location: Park Forest IL. |
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And since you have yet to provide your numbers I shall assume you don't have any and the Wiki is right. I know the NPD numbers for Fusion are right as well. So we know that Super Metriod sold more here as did the GB games. So it's not just Prime where there is a gap. There is probably a gap for all of them, but I can't find anywhere where that sates where it is for Return of Samus or the first one. More truth that Metriod is more popular here though is that Other M did better here as well. http://www.siliconera.com/2011/01/23/heres-how-xenoblade-and-metroid-other-m-did-in-japan/ http://nintendoeverything.com/npd-sales-data-for-metroid-other-m/ This site also lists it's source as NPF numbers for Fusion. http://www.hometheaterforum.com/topic/112153-january-game-salesnpd-numbers/ Here are some media create numbers from NeoGAF 14/02/03 [GBA] Metroid Fusion (Nintendo) - 50.500 / 50.500 28/02/03 [GCN] Metroid Prime (Nintendo) - 40.500 / 40.500 27/05/04 [GBA] Metroid: Zero Mission (Nintendo) - 37.396 / 51.477 26/05/05 [GCN] Metroid Prime 2: Echoes (Nintendo) - 16.105 / 16.105 19/01/06 [NDS] Metroid Prime: Pinball (Nintendo) - 6.000 / 6.000 01/06/06 [NDS] Metroid Prime: Hunters (Nintendo) - 32.467 / 94.549 06/03/08 [WII] Metroid Prime 3: Corruption (Nintendo) - 32.388 / 69.059 19/02/09 [WII] New Play Control! Metroid Prime (Nintendo) - 7.215 / 21.519 11/06/09 [WII] New Play Control! Metroid Prime 2: Echoes (Nintendo) - 2.342 / 7.216 02/09/10 [WII] Metroid: Other M (Nintendo) - 45.398 / 45.398 Some NPD numbers from around the web. METROID FUSION - 932,520 METROID ZERO MISSION - 459,428 While I can't not find a 100% credible source all signs point to the fact that the series has sold better in America usually. Is the entire internet lying? Maybe, but I'm not sure all these sites would lie. You supposedly have numbers that you've seen that disagree. You could show them or I'm just going to assume I called your bluff. Until then it seems like all signs point to me being correct here. Which dosen't really matter. I'm not sure why you want to point out that Metriod is some series people in the west never cared about when it's clearly not true. I mean I don't believe you are correct that it was super fanservice series that Americans wouldn't get. I mean it's a Nintendo game, it's not going to have her in more than a bikini really. So it's not this series that Americans could never get until they made it a FPS, a FPS that plays nothing like popular FPS at that. I also like how "it's Japanese storytelling" is an excuse for bad storytelling. |
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FenixFiesta
Posts: 2581 |
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Because there don't exist female characters written in stories by Japanese for Japanese that resonate in there Pop culture in addition (are generally)positively received in Western Country's such as Asuna from SAO, Mikasa Ackerman from Attack on Titan, and Misaka Mikoto from A Certain Scientific Railgun. Consider that line of thinking debunked. |
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Krotchstak
Posts: 94 |
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The fact that it has a female protagonist without any qualifiers or male support cast is significant from a cultural standpoint whether you think it is or not. Believe it or not, though, I agree that the games weren't trying to have statements. The fact of the matter is, they are an example of gender equality in gaming whether they use that to say something or not. Metroid is a game, games are cultjural products, and cultural products are reflections of the cultures that created them. Metroid doesn't exist in a vacuum. And it's more than a little ironic that you project Other M's themes (if you can call them that) back onto the rest of the games after telling me to stop reading into the games. Until Other M, no themes of motherhood or femininity existed in the series. Even in her interactions with the infant Metroid, nothing regarding motherhood is brought up. That's something inserted by Other M retroactively. On top of that, NONE of the other games emphasized the gender of Samus in any way in the gameplay proper.
There is such thing as objectively bad writing and objectively bad ways to tell a story, believe it or not. I'll give you the cultural stuff for the superhero example, but fact that this portrayal is at odds with how Western gamers imagine her isn't insignificant. We have reasons for imagining her the way we do, and those reasons had nothing to do with Gordon Freeman or Master Chief. The overlap between FPS fans and Prime fans is actually pretty small, since (again) Prime is NOT AN FPS. FPS fans DON'T LIKE PRIME, because it plays NOTHING like an FPS. But even if it did, the fact that Metroid fans other than Prime fans are pissed off by this should be pretty telling. Other M's personality for Samus is, on top of being sexist and weak, a fairly enormous stretch from what little could be gleaned from her past appearances. That ISN'T a cultural thing. A weak and submissive character is a weak and submissive character, culture and gender aside. If Adam was replaced by a girl in the story, we would have identical problems with Samus' portrayal. |
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AiddonValentine
 Posts: 2341 |
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Thing is even Samus being a woman in the first place was an accident. What happened was someone on the dev team for the first game thought it'd be amusing if the badass space marine the player had been piloting turned out to be a woman instead of a man. The entirety of Samus being a woman was done on a whim and thus any popularity she got from being a woman was kind of an accident. |
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Rahxephon91
Posts: 1859 Location: Park Forest IL. |
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Yeah thats what I thought. Also I'm unsure how anyone could think that nes sprite could be sexy so that it would be fanservice.
Hence I did'nt understand Guile's point about this series playing up her sexuality with her being in her underwear even being a reward in the original. Pretty crappy reward if so. |
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LinkTSwordmaster
 Posts: 535 Location: PA / USA |
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Wow....what a quickly escalating convo....
I actually liked Other M from a gameplay perspective, but I was left with the feeling that adding something like 3 more hours to the game would have at least given it a chance to flesh out some of the plot and allow more time for the final confrontation's build-up. The ending always seemed sort of abrupt to me, and I felt as if they never really tapped into the complete potential of the other characters in the game, villains or otherwise. Not allowing the use of the nunchuck to make aiming+moving easier while playing singlehandedly destroyed any fun of moving Samus around. Since everyone seems to have covered the rest of the arguments, my opinion on the whole sexism thing is probably more-so aligned with the points Anna Sarkeesian made in her newer "Ms. Male" video for Tropes vs Women - that female characters tend to be empty reflections of the male characters, just with female signifiers attached to them. I got that exact feeling from the way Samus and Adam interact in Other M among other factors (most already mentioned above). I think at the end of the day, rather than have a good dialogue about PTSD or explore military command structure or even give us more background on the universe Samus inhabits and her relationship to it, Other M simply felt like a male's skewed interpretation of a strong female character as filtered through cultural preconceptions & gender bias's. For these reasons, I REALLY want Nintendo to take a hard look at the character and make sure that the next game avoids these pitfalls. ============ Moving on to Final Fantasy, I'm worried about Lightning Returns on account of the fact that I've seen attention drawn more to her wardrobe and bust-size increase than I have about anything else pertaining to her as a strong character in.....whatever situation the game is throwing at her this time. Both FF13 & 13-2 didn't really set off any flags in my head that said Lightning or Serah were terrible representations of female empowerment, but I don't want them doing to Lightning in Returns what happened to Yuna with FFX-2. My interpretation of Yuna from FFX being that of a strong character tasked with a very important, very lethal obligation that intends to follow through with it anyways (being responsible and all).....all of that was sort of chucked out the window with FFX-2 when the premise for the game was her chasing after Tidus, as well as having a focus on her and the other girls taking power from dressing up in generally-girly fashions in a somewhat exploitative kind of way. Again, male interpretation of a female character. Thusly, the focus on outfits in Returns and the fact that they felt the need to increase her chest to show said outfits off really worries me. I think the same points could be applied to the new Drakengard game. Presenting the main character as supposedly being a strong female character may very well end up being erroneous if the only factors contributing to that description are that she is a murderous, bitchy, man-stealing nympho. Again, playing into that whole "male interpretation" thing in that a woman either has to be curvy, fertile, and wearing pink or is a self-centered narcissist that all men should run from for fear of being dominated. |
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