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Kouji wrote:

You do realize that if you're an American, that is an extremely hypocritical and contradictory statement to make about other Americans?

How? If I said the shows average Americans watch are nothing but crap but then I watched the very same shows I was condemning in secret, then it'd be hypocritical, but I don't so it isn't. Seriously. There is a television in my house but I don't watch more than maybe an hour or two of programmed content per month, usually when I'm sitting in some waiting room somewhere. You didn't bother to explain how you thought my comments were contradictory but the only thing they're contradicting is popular sentiment, the very same popular sentiment that gave us the great American novel "Curious George Goes to Washington."

Kouji wrote:

And it's just as bad to hate something just for being popular just as much as it is to like something only because it's popular.

I don't actually hate it because it's popular; I hate it because it's terrible. The level of popularity is just a tool to help me gauge just how bad it's likely to be. Obviously there are exceptions and once you drop below a certain point the curve becomes meaningless as you fall below the level at which even the slightest redeeming quality is acknowledged by those who saw it, but for the most part my system seems to work well enough to keep using it.

Kouji wrote:

Furthermore, if everyone started to hate the popular shows and only watched the non-popular shows simply because of their popularity, then the non-popular shows would then become popular, which would mean that the non-popular shows are no longer non-popular, thus the shows that were formerly popular are now non-popular, which means you must now hate the popular shows that were once non-popular because the popular shows are no longer popular. Rolling Eyes

You lost me right at "everyone." We all know that there is no way in hell most people are going to do what I do. I'm a pure anomaly, a relentless exception, a useless riddle, and a pointless enigma. End of circular logic.

Kouji wrote:

Besides, since when do most Americans watch anime anyway?

You don't need most Americans to chime-in in order for my gauge to work. The more Americans who like something, the more likely I am to hate it, even if I have no idea if a given show is popular or not.

selenta wrote:

10円 wrote:

I'll admit it, when I hear about some mega-popular series on TV I tend to immediately discount it and avoid it, but when I read about the latest Buried Treasure or some random post about some obscure title I often become interested almost instantly.

You know, this is really a funny opinion when you look at it. So you don't trust thousands of people's opinion, you just trust one person who says: "Hey look at this! Nobody else seemed to like it!" Of course, there are always series like HxH that were simply overshadowed, but these series seem to be far fewer than those that simply didn't deserve to make it to mainstream. Every show has its fans, so if you take two shows of equal fandom, you're just about as likely to be recommended crap as you are to get what you would consider an actual gem.

As always though, this isn't limited to anime fandom. Anyone who follows music will see this as absolutely ubiquitous. People will follow some band, often a local band, through thick and thin and will mention them every chance they get, until they become popular... then bam said person suddenly doesn't like their "new" music and will say things like: "oh, they were cool, back in the day before they sold out." It's a little different here, because your opinion doesn't actually change... but in both cases, it's something that you probably would like, if you could just look at the actual quality of the object and not let yourself get pushed around (or force yourself to push back in this case) by public opinion.

I always thought doing this was pretty easy and never thought anything of it, but apparently most people find it very hard to just ignore what people say. I guess it's harder to just not think about things than I thought. Laughing

You bring up a few valid points I want to touch on. For starters Selenta yes it is harder for the normal person just not to think about things. Look around you buddy, everything in the media teaches up we're supposed to care. Everywhere you look there is another piece of media telling us how to think, how to look, how to feel. Most people simply want to be accepted and follow these trends (or whatever else you want to call them) because they want to fit in. Most people take to heart what others say because they feel they're supposed to. Obviously they know what's cool and what we're supposed to think right? It is sad how so many people base their own views on those of others but it's simply how it is. I'm sure you know that.

To answer the original question of the poster so many fans of anime refuse to give show A a chance because they're quick to judge. They see the fangirls and fanboys at cons of these shows and just become so thoroughly disgusted at them they associate that disgust with the show itself. Some act this way simply because they think if a show is this popular it must be some sort of childish crap. There's too many reason to list honestly. People just tend to make pre-disposed judgments without any sort of proof. A sad trend in society as a whole. I agree with you though that a show should be judged on its merits alone and not those sad people who represent the show poorly.

As you said this isn't limited to anime but it obviously does happen in the anime world. It also happens on both sides of the fence. There are those that jump on the "this show is so awesome" bandwagon as well as the people who refuse to give a show a chance because of it's sheer popularity. Two examples of your music theory are Greenday and Metallica. In their early days these 2 bands shared much respect from their fans. Then along the way the music changed or evolved and fans labeled them as sell outs. An example for anime is the Gundam universe. I know a few people who refuse to give any new Gundam show a chance after G Gundam. They seem to all share the narrow view Gundam is just pathetic now because of that one flop. So they refuse to give Seed or Seed Destiny a chance.

I'm one of the people who the Topic Creator is talking about.
My friends are Naruto-fans to the death. They can't stop talking about how awesome it is, about how awesome Sasuke and Naruto's fights are...really, I see it as DBZ with Ninja.

I saw a few fan-subs before Narutardism came around. I liked it, I thought it was interesting. I can't say I had seen better, because anime was scarce for me at the time, but it was good. Flash-forward a few months--I had seen stuff like Samurai7, Elfen Lied, Buso Renkin, Black Cat, The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya, etc. And Narutards were rampant. My friends gave me a CD of Naruto Manga he downloaded off of the internet, and he wouldn't go a day without telling me TWICE to read them. I read Naruto in Shonen Jump Magazine. I find it good, I just have more passion to other shows. That, and having people on my back telling me to watch/read it all the time doesn't help. It makes me glad NOT to watch it.

In the end, I put as much effort into reading/seeing anything Naruto as I do in killing myself--which is to say, barely none. If I read Naruto, it's in the new issue of Shonen Jump. And that's enough for me.

I think it's okay as a series. But there are better ones, and I just have no passion for it. That's all. And hearing so freakin' much about it makes it annoying, too. I'm gonna be honest, the transition from 'not well known' to 'fandom material' had a hand. If there were a bunch of people squealing over Train Heartnet, and making lame slashes like Train/Sven, I'd lose passion for Black Cat.

.....I'm a hypocrate, I guess....

ImperialKat wrote:

Point is, not everything popular/on TV is complete and utter crap and yet I listen to some people and they say we are inferior for watching [as]. I think some people long for the "exclusivity" of the old days, to the point that they shun anything with a large following.

Levitz9 wrote:

I think it's okay as a series. But there are better ones, and I just have no passion for it. That's all. And hearing so freakin' much about it makes it annoying, too.

I think Levitz9 makes the point clearly. I AM one of the people who was into anime before ANYTHING ran on [as], heck before there was a CN (hahaha, yeah, and yes we actually did have TV back in the day). There are things that make me think of the "good old days", but it's not "exclusivity. I actually was happy when DB/DBZ ran on Cartoon Network and glad to see Sailor Moon bringing people into fandom. But here's the thing, "back in the day" DBZ was a show that'd be "middle of the road". It was something fans would watch, we'd like and ultimately move on to other things.

Today's fans find the one show and it's the greatest ever (which ignores everything great that came before) and wave it around as the most awesomest thing I could ever see. What if I only think it's "ok"? Well, that's not good enough, because it is the most awesomest thing EVAR!!!! Do you think "Citizen Kane" is the greatest movie ever? If you said "no", how would you feel if I waved pictures of it in your face every day and any time we talk movies I compare everything to it with the notation that "Citizen Kane" is the best ever so at best your favorite can only be #2. And why haven't you watched it yet, or maybe you don't like it because you don't UNDERSTAND it, and you need to look deeper at what the writer/director/actors were all trying to SAY. Oh, and most all critics agree with ME that it's the best ever, so you must be flawed to think otherwise. Don't you just feel amped to see this movie now? And if you ever watch it, even if it's just "meh" to you, aren't you just going to agree that it's super awesome, because I browbeat you into it?

Or are you going to hate it because I'm an annoying @$$, or if you ever DO watch it, you'll expect it to BE the most awesome movie ever and if it's even just "decent" you'll consider it crap because why was I such an @$$ about this movie?

10円 wrote:

How? If I said the shows average Americans watch are nothing but crap but then I watched the very same shows I was condemning in secret, then it'd be hypocritical, but I don't so it isn't. Seriously. There is a television in my house but I don't watch more than maybe an hour or two of programmed content per month, usually when I'm sitting in some waiting room somewhere. You didn't bother to explain how you thought my comments were contradictory but the only thing they're contradicting is popular sentiment, the very same popular sentiment that gave us the great American novel "Curious George Goes to Washington."

Your post is contradictory because you criticize "most" Americans for having "bad tastes" (as if you somehow personally know "most" Americans and what they think) yet you yourself are one of those Americans, so by your logic, you must have "bad taste" as well . Unless you somehow think that your opinions of what cartoons are good and what cartoons are bad is somehow more superior and more authoritative than the "average" American's opinions, whatever "average" means, never mind we wouldn't have as much anime being released today that we do have if it wasn't for the popular shows introducing people who support the industry to anime. I'm willing to bet that the majority of us here became anime fans through at least one mainstream show or at least one mainstream show had an effect on our decisions to invest in this hobby. As for me? I think I'll just stick to watching whatever I like to watch regardless of a cartoon's popularity because it's what I like and not worry about whatever other people think. I think that's a lot more simpler.

Kouji wrote:

Your post is contradictory because you criticize "most" Americans for having "bad tastes" (as if you somehow personally know "most" Americans and what they think) yet you yourself are one of those Americans, so by your logic, you must have "bad taste" as well. Unless you somehow think that your opinions of what cartoons are good and what cartoons are bad is somehow more superior and more authoritative than the "average" American's opinions, whatever "average" means.

You're making a ridiculous extrapolation of his comment. 10Yen is basically explaining how the "least common denominator" works, and how he doesn't usually go along with that category. A good example would be Jerry Springer. In his day, Springer had the top rated daytime show, and it was crass, stupid and pandering to morons. And LOTS of people loved it. And other people HATED it. But the ratings show that "most" people watching TV at the time liked (I guess) it. But you could still find the show idiotic and stupid and HATE it, even though "most" Americans felt otherwise.

To paraphrase "Men in Black":
People are not smart, a PERSON is smart, but people are dumb and you know it.

PEOPLE will go along with the herd because they think they're supposed to. PEOPLE will "love" something only to look back 5-10 years later and laugh at themselves. PEOPLE will make a movie like "Armaggedon" a blockbuster. I don't think "popularity" should be the only defining characteristic of choosing anime (and I don't think it is for 10Yen), but I can understand the thinking that if the bulk of the herd gravitates towards something, it is probably crap. And I can even understand being willing to lose the small percentage of gold the masses find to avoid all the crap they'll inevitably walk through.

10円 wrote:

You lost me right at "everyone." We all know that there is no way in hell most people are going to do what I do. I'm a pure anomaly, a relentless exception, a useless riddle, and a pointless enigma. End of circular logic.

You are a very unique individual...just like everyone else.

Quote:

You don't need most Americans to chime-in in order for my gauge to work. The more Americans who like something, the more likely I am to hate it, even if I have no idea if a given show is popular or not.

Wow, I read this several times, and I can't understand it at all.
If you don't know if something is popular or not, how do you avoid the popular stuff?

Oh boy, here we go.....

Okay, so here is a list of each of the series that are extremely popular that are getting bad reps because of their fanbases, and how I personally got into them as a fan of them:

DBZ: I was about 8 years old when Dragon Ball first came out in america, but I only saw about 1 episode since I was angry at it for taking the place of my favorite TV show, Ronin Warriors, and was even still when I saw the commercials for Dragonball Z, which I already knew was a sequil to Dragon Ball. Still though, it blew my poor little 8 year old mind, and latter on when it first came to Cartoon Network (before I even knew it was popular) when I was 12 and had never seen a show like it before, it blew my mind even further. It still to this day remains one of my all time favorites, even if I have already seen everything it has to offer. Popularity had nothing to do with it.

Naruto: I was searching through the SJ monthly in american one day since my 2 favorite series at the time (DBZ, YYH) were in there, and decided I wanted to read a series that I already didn't know everything about. I came across a little series called Naruto, and yes, it did look from the outside like a series I could never get into at first, but it sadly did look like the best choice out of any of them. But when I read it, it was at the exact same moment in the series were they faught Zabuza for the first time, and I was like "Wow this is Cool!" Then I wen't back and read the first 2 1/2 volumes to catch up, and found out how much I could relate to it on an emotional level, and became one of my new top 3 favorite series along with DBZ and YYH, and read it in every SJ monthly release ever since. Then much latter in my future (like, about a year ago) when a friend of mine who is also a Naruto fan introduced me to the fansubs, since he knew I was also a Naruto fan, I saw the series in it's entirety, and it exploded in my face as my newest favorite series in relation to all the reasons I liked it already, even though I still loved everything I did before. But since I still did first get into Naruto on my own, not exactly but almost at the same time when it debuted in america, popularity had nothing to do with it.

Bleach: When the first volume debuted in america, I saw the front cover with Ichigo and his giant sword, and already knew this was going to be worth checking out. I did, and the stories, the characters, the animation, the cool action and battle sequences all were my reasons for absolutely loving this series, and read every volume from that point on. Then, when my friend mentioned above introduced me to fansubs, the same thing happened as what happened with Naruto. Popularity had nothing to do with it.

FMA: Simply put, I was already watching AS at the time, and came across the commercial for it. I had never heard of it before, and decided to go ahead and try it out when the first episode aired, as I have with pretty much everything (other than Inuyasha, Cowboy Beebop, and NGE) that has ever been on AS or Toonami., and was astounded as to how incredible a series it is. Popularity had nothing to do with it.

Then I eventually did begin to see them become as popular as they are, and was happy to see my favorite series become as successful as they became. But at the same time was still a little worried about it because I didn't want them to become just another fad that would pass and people to see me as just another one of these kinds of fans. Thing is, in all honesty, I really don't care about that sort of thing, and I don't really give a crap what anyone else thinks, or how popular/unpopular something is. I like what I like, I don't like what I don't like, and I do in both cases because of what I personally think about the series itself. Popularity has nothing to do with it.

I mean yes, I have had experiences in which all of Pokemon's, Inuyasha's, Cowboy Bebop's, NGE's, One Piece's (yes, the fansubed version) and Death Note's cases, I actually DID give into the pressure of what everyone else was saying about them and found out that none of them are any where near what they were all cracked up to be. But as a person who tries to see the good in everything, I found it each and every one of them, and found them to be quite good and enjoyable series, and still do love each of them very much nonetheless. But for my own personall view of them all, and no one elses.

POPULARITY HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IT!!!!!!!!

HeeroTX wrote:

[PEOPLE will go along with the herd because they think they're supposed to. PEOPLE will "love" something only to look back 5-10 years later and laugh at themselves. PEOPLE will make a movie like "Armaggedon" a blockbuster. I don't think "popularity" should be the only defining characteristic of choosing anime (and I don't think it is for 10Yen), but I can understand the thinking that if the bulk of the herd gravitates towards something, it is probably crap. And I can even understand being willing to lose the small percentage of gold the masses find to avoid all the crap they'll inevitably walk through.

You're still missing my point. My point is that hating something just because it's popular is just as bad and hypocritical as liking something just because it's popular. There's nothing wrong with liking popular things in itself so long as you are liking them because you truly enjoy it and not just because you want to be part of the fad. And just because something is underground doesn't mean that it's any better than something that's popular.

Case in point, I love Inuyasha and a lot of elitist snobs keep ranting about how much it sucks and how repetitive it is and will start obsessing about how much better Ranma 1/2 is than Inuyasha. As a fan of Inuyasha, I decided to check out the first volume of the Ranma 1/2 manga because I really wanted to read more of Rumiko's other works but when I read Ranma 1/2 I thought it was the most boring and annoying thing ever. The only thing that happened at all in the first volume was Ranma and Akane kept arguing back and forth over the most idiotic reasons and there didn't seem to be any sort of direction that this manga was going to actually head in. Maybe it gets better later on, but I'm not about to suffer through more chapters of Akane who I still think is the most obnoxious anime character in existence to find out. That doesn't mean I don't plan on trying out Rumiko's other works, but just because something is underground doesn't make it automatically better than something that's mainstream. Underground anime can suck too, you know.

okay i have a question.....since when deathnote was popular? some onf you are memtioning that and im like what...i heard of it and seen 3 eps thanks to my bro but i dont run into many people talk about it or carry around the deathnotebook theyre selling.

maybe its because in my area its narutard city.

or maybe its because i pay attention to many different titles.

::::OK let me know if I didn't grasp the exact theory of this topic.::::

So here's a question why are we avoiding anime because of the fact that it's popular, I find that to be kind of a silly premise. I mean I don't typically see it, in fact if its popular I see more people getting involved into it. The people that avoid popular anime might as well avoid all anime together. I mean I guess except for those extremely old titles, that nobody really wishes to watch. Have you guys even seen Cosplay or been to an anime convention? I think just about every possible character for a mainstream anime has it's own costume and if people are willing to dress up for the sereis they you have to figure it's popular.

I guess what I'm trying to say is to not turn your head or snear something, because it's popular. It's silly, it's like a part of you is rebelling and just doesn't want to "Fit in the man". Watch the series and create your opinion for the anime, don't kick it to the curb the moment you hear everyone in a classroom or hallway talking about it, and try discussing it with other people, you make get another insight about the series that you just didn't think about.

I agree that hardcore Otaku turn my appeal from certain things, but it's not bad enough that I would turn me away from a series. I just don't think that you should live and breathe anime, it's kind of nauseating to hear people talk about nothing but a single episode of something.

I typically don't like this mindset, but there is one case that the fanbase COMPLETELY ran me off of a series; Haruhi Suzumiya.

All I had to do was say that she should be taken off of the character polls because we all KNOW she'll rank in the top 5, and that she didn't sound like a character I'd like, though I'd give her a chance. What do I get? Screaming fangirls down my throat trying to kill me over the internet because Heaven forbid I'm not interested, yet I haven't seen it yet. I'm not going to watch it at all now. I typically don't let that happen, but in this case, I don't want to be associated with such a psychotic and scary fanbase.

Viga_of_stars wrote:

okay i have a question.....since when deathnote was popular? some onf you are memtioning that and im like what...i heard of it and seen 3 eps thanks to my bro but i don't run into many people talk about it or carry around the deathnotebook theyre selling.

maybe its because in my area its narutard city.

or maybe its because i pay attention to many different titles.

It was the sh*t here a couple months ago. Now the hype has died down. But yeah, I hadnt heard of it or heard it discussed outside of here.

Kouji wrote:

Why is it that so many anime fans refuse to watch an anime solely because of the fandom associated with it? I just don't understand it. Like there are many anime fans who will bash Naruto before they've even seen it to judge it based solely on the actions of the fans.

I agree 150% with this and guess what? It's not just in anime, it's everywhere, like Magic the Gathering, you wouldn't believe how many haters there are out there, and just because it's popular. I hate when people talk bad about Naruto, Bleach, and Death Note because of their popularity, maybe if they would sit down, shut up, and watch, they would like them more.

DragonsRevenge wrote:

Viga_of_stars wrote:

okay i have a question.....since when deathnote was popular? some onf you are memtioning that and im like what...i heard of it and seen 3 eps thanks to my bro but i don't run into many people talk about it or carry around the deathnotebook theyre selling.

maybe its because in my area its narutard city.

or maybe its because i pay attention to many different titles.

It was the sh*t here a couple months ago. Now the hype has died down. But yeah, I hadnt heard of it or heard it discussed outside of here.

Oh sorry, viga, I was the one who said, Deathnote... Cause I'm not in America or an American, I don't know what animes there are in the sizzling plate... Here in my place, Deathnote is always the talk of my schoolmates, mostly boys... I just hate it when they make me stop watching Black Cat cause Deathnote is much cooler... As of now, what I still see in Deathnote is that stupid notebook that kills people, "Ooh, how interesting!"(said in sarcasm and yawns)... Deathnote is like the more shounen version of Jigoku Shoujo... I really don't know why it became more popular than Jigoku when in fact Jigoku is more interesting to watch...

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