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Fencedude5609
Joined: 09 Nov 2006
Posts: 5088
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Posted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 3:41 pm
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law240 wrote: | For me the "Moe Era" didn't really hit for me until Haruhi Suzumiya got reversed engineered into Luck Star and that's when a lot of other studios jumped on the bandwagon formula of cute girls in clubs and referential Otaku humor sold like hot cakes Haruhi was the rock and Lucky Star was the wave and K-On and the like was period of moe Inundation. |
"Reverse engineered into Lucky Star"?
Seriously?
SERIOUSLY!?
What is with people having these utterly insane ideas of how things work and get made?
Is it so hard to actually go out and learn about this shit instead of just making it the hell up to fit your preconceptions!?
Haruhi and Lucky Star have nothing in common other than their main seiyuu and animation studio. There is no connection between them.
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MikuRockShooterMk2
Joined: 25 Aug 2013
Posts: 25
Location: New York City
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Posted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 3:42 pm
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Honestly, it pains my heart to see other more mediocre anime series get second seasons and so on when there are shows that really need them. Take SAO. It had a huge hype up and I swear EVERYWHERE I WENT there were idiots calling it the Best Anime EVER and A Perfect Anime. So I watched it, couldn't stand it and never understood the overhype. it was decent, don't get me wrong, but it had way too many flaws for it to be so highly rated. And a lot of friends would tell me that the anime just ruined the series and I should read the light novels instead. And I was surprised as well, when it turned out to be true. Back to the point, I just don't understand the anime viewing community sometimes. I know the big show recently is Attack on Titan, but yet again I don't see why its so great. Its good, looks pretty and it has its moments, but to me, I think it pales in comparison to other series. So what im basically trying to say is that we need to stop focusing on the new shows so much for more seasons and go back to the roots. Like where is the new season of Lucky Star? Haruhi? Rosario Vampire? Berserk? Claymore? sigh..
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ultimatemegax
Joined: 26 Jan 2010
Posts: 412
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Posted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 3:42 pm
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There's a lot of reasons we've seen the Haruhi Suzumiya franchise decline, but the biggest point is the lack of new material from Nagaru Tanigawa. Kadokawa, the publishers of the novels, manga, and associated print material, uses anime and videos to advertise their print material first and foremost. When what eventually became the new episodes in the "re-airing" and the movie was greenlit back in 2007, Tanigawa was continually writing new stories. That came to a screetching halt in the same year. He finally finished novel 10 (which became novels 10/11) in 2010, but has only written two short stories (and one un-related short story) since for all of his series. With no consistent new material coming from Tanigawa, and the novels having saturated the market, there's no reason to promote them over a new franchise. Same for figures/other merchandise not related to Kadokawa. They've dropped off (outside a few re-prints like the one linked) because everything's saturated for Haruhi.
On this side of the Pacific, a few additional things happened. When the new episodes of the "re-airing" happened to mostly consist of "Endless Eight", it alienated a lot of fans. In Japan, the movie was screened less than 4 months after the final episode and was highly promoted, thus never getting a drop off in enthusiasm (leading to a highly successful set of screenings; moving from 24 theatres originally to over 110 and earning over 800 million yen in revenue). That wasn't the case in North America. Bandai only screened the movie in 4 locations: San Francisco (3 weeks), Los Angeles (one night only), New York (NYCC one night screening), and Honolulu (limited showing after 4 month delay). Kadokawa, wanting to tie in with the significant date in the movie, released the DVD/BD on December 18th, pushing Bandai's release to September 2011, nearly two years later for most fans to legally see the movie.
With the lack of new material coming (in either print or anime form), and no promotional materials, fans have moved on. At least enough people continue to purchase the novels from Yen Press as they'll finish their run of Eng. translations this year (5 years after announcing the license). At this point, you only have the die-hard fans left.
BTW, thank Sankaku and their parrots for maintaining the "Hirano's to blame for no new anime" idiocy over the past two years.
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Fencedude5609
Joined: 09 Nov 2006
Posts: 5088
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Posted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 3:44 pm
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Thank you.
Anyone who posts after ultimatemegax and claims anything other than what he said is confirmed to have no idea what they are talking about or desire to actually learn things, instead of pulling stuff out of their butt.
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sonic720
Joined: 29 Aug 2013
Posts: 66
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Posted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 3:51 pm
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Ambimunch wrote: | ... I would kill to get Haruhi on BD. Granted, there is a Japanese BD box set of both seasons, and it does include the English DUB on it, but its like 400$.... |
I have the Japanese Haruhi BD Box set. I got it off of Amazon.co.jp used for US $275 total including shipping, so it can be had for less than the US $400+ price tag. I've also seen a few listings on eBay for it used at US $300 if anyone is interested in the import. It has BOTH the English dub and the English subtitles for seasons 1 and 2 of the show. However, it does not have English subtitles, or audio, for the extra features.
Also, the first season is only an upscale on the BDs, so the picture quality is not as sharp and detailed as the second season looks in native HD. Since the first season on the Japanese BD set is only an upscale and not remastered into HD, aside from the OP, any eventual North American BD release would most likely be just an upscale as well. The second season would likely be native HD on a NA BD release though.
As for the whole moé debate, I'd say it's been around since anime first was made. Moé, by definition, is a strong emotional feeling one has toward a character while watching an anime more than just an aesthetic. Some people may be moé for Astro Boy, while others for a cute anime girl, but both are moé if the person has strong feelings for either. So given the true definition of moé, ANY anime can be moé because fans can have a strong affection toward any show's characters.
I think those who are tired of the "school shows" or "cute girls doing cute things shows" are misguided to blame the trend on "moé", as it's a feeling not an aesthetic. The reality is the older aesthetic that lit their moé fire has been replaced by the next generation's aesthetic of choice. What we all have to remember is anime changes with the times and what's in today may not be in tomorrow. The demand for the "school shows" and "cute girl shows" will eventually die down and make way for the next big thing, whatever that may be.
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walw6pK4Alo
Joined: 12 Mar 2008
Posts: 9322
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Posted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 3:57 pm
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I really do feel Endless Eight killed any good forward momentum the title had going for it. I remember spirits were high going into that season, and low coming out. It's funny to see people try to defend it with saying how how every episode was still animated differently enough, or that you're supposed to empathize with Yuki's boredom by emulating it yourself. Yeah, that's entertainment!
Also, while I generally think the movie was a more positive than negative experience (a little too long and in dire need of cuts), it's a dour and mellow film that's not exactly enthralling or going to set fire under anyone's feet. Its slow pace and narrow focus make for more introspection than excitement, the same high energy that launched Haruhi in the first place is absent.
Last edited by walw6pK4Alo on Sun Sep 08, 2013 4:05 pm; edited 2 times in total
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bravetailor
Joined: 30 May 2009
Posts: 817
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Posted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 4:02 pm
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Personally, I'm happy with the way the franchise ended in anime form, actually. Yes, it does to a certain extent leave you wanting to see more of the characters, but from a purely formal standpoint I thought they wrung every narrative trick, gimmick, and yes, even inventiveness they could out of the franchise.
Given the show's premise, it seems somewhat fitting that years later, we ask "Whatever Happened to Haruhi Suzumiya?"
Better to burn brightly and quickly fade out than get dragged into the dirt over a long period of time.
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Macron One
Joined: 17 Aug 2006
Posts: 151
Location: Netherlands
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Posted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 4:04 pm
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With the great commercial success of the Haruhi franchise, it does seem odd that Kadokawa didn't attempt to keep the momentum going by producing another TV season, even in the absence of a light novel to promote. Now that the KyoAni animation studio has started to become more independant and is concentrating on producing anime based on their own light novel line, i kinda doubt it would be on board even if a new Haruhi anime were to be announced.
Mike Toole wrote: | What impresses me the most about the film is probably its characters’ body language—like the great Tsuneo Kobayashi, director Yasuhiro Takemoto has a gift for this kind of expression. He communicates more in the characters’ posture and expressions—Kyon's sideways glare and rueful smile, Haruhi, placing her arms akimbo and seeming to grow a foot taller, Mikuru's blubbering, bashful adorableness—than the film's dialogue itself. |
The realistic depiction of subtle body movement is something that Kyoto Animation has been getting increasingly good at in recent years.
While it's obviously most noticeable in their two big theatrical productions, it is also starting to become an impressive element in their TV series. This is especially effective in the Hyouka series, which relies very heavily on gradual character developement, where it really helps to make each character's behaviour feel distinctive and natural.
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Melanchthon
Joined: 02 Oct 2010
Posts: 550
Location: Northwest from Here
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Posted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 4:06 pm
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Look at the other shows on that top five rescue list. The reason those shows stuck around are because they are shows that did something really cool and original --and-- were either unable or unwilling to be successfully imitated. Haruhi, bless her heart, was mined and stolen from so much that it's really not original anymore. I could probably reel off a list of a dozen shows influenced by Haruhi and her successors in the last year. When was the last good anime space opera, like Outlaw Star? The only one I can think of in the last five years was Bodacious Space Pirates, and that's stretching a little.
Basically, if a new fan were to watch Cowboy Bebop today, it would still be relative fresh. If that fan were to watch Haruhi today, he'd be seeing things he'd already seen before in other shows. Compare reactions of Love Hina in 2001 to today. We we first saw Haruhi, it was something amazing and special, and it's lost some of that luster. Also, there was that whole Endless Eight thing that really pissed people off.
And you have to watch Haruhi in broadcast (non-chronological) order, since the climax of the series is in episode 5 -- if it is watched chronologically, it is punchless. And due a lot of confusion, both in the fandom and corporate levels, this fact isn't distributed like it should be.
--
If I had to pick the start date of the 'moe era', the most logical starting point would be Cardcaptor Sakura. The first instance of 'moeblob' on the other hand, would be PitaTen, from 2002. We hit peak moeblob with K-On, and moe shows have been winding down of seasons late.
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bravetailor
Joined: 30 May 2009
Posts: 817
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Posted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 4:07 pm
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Macron One wrote: |
The realistic depiction of subtle body movement is something that Kyoto Animation has been getting increasingly good at in recent years.
While it's obviously most noticeable in their two big theatrical productions, it is also starting to become an impressive element in their TV series. This is especially effective in the Hyouka series, which relies very heavily on gradual character developement, where it really helps to make each character's behaviour feel distinctive and natural. |
There's a Kyoto Animation fan blog somewhere that noticed a significant uptick in character animation and indeed, overall staging and compositions somewhere between K-On S1 and K-On S2, which not coincidentally occurred during the time Kyoto Animation did the Haruhi movie.
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Fencedude5609
Joined: 09 Nov 2006
Posts: 5088
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Posted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 4:08 pm
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walw6pK4Alo wrote: | I really do feel Endless Eight killed any good forward momentum the title had going for it. I remember spirits were high going into that season, and low coming out. It's funny to see people try to defend it with saying how how every episode was still animated differently enough, or that you're supposed to empathize with Yuki's boredom by emulating it yourself. Yeah, that's entertainment!
Also, while I generally think the movie was a more positive than negative experience (a little too long and in dire need of cuts), it's a dour and mellow film that's not exactly enthralling or going to set fire under anyone's feet. Its slow pace and narrow focus make for more introspection than excitement, the same high energy that launched Haruhi in the first place is absent. |
Wow its almost as if your pov is entirely focused on the meaningless reactions in the western fanbase and you didn't read ultimatemegax's post at all!
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Animegomaniac
Joined: 16 Feb 2012
Posts: 4133
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Posted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 4:11 pm
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configspace wrote: | As Mike's pic illustrates, moe's been around a lot longer than just the last couple of years. In fact I'd say moe was always with us in one form or another... |
Shh. Just let people think whatever they want. {My own personal answer is "Windsor McKay"; The primary reason for animation existing is to make unreality cute. "Moe" as a negative came into usage as the Japanese audience split from the "English speaking" one. I have no idea why they think their opinion matters}.
I think the primary reason Kyoto Animation isn't interested in more Haruhi is more along the lines of 1) They want to do original properties so they can get all the merchandizing and 2) {lesser reason} After Disappearance, it sounds as if there's no easily pitched central story.
Even before the second season was made, I heard bits and pieces of the story of Disappearance and Sigh is my favorite of the three stories {It has an "escalation" plot like the first one only now with powers versus its exact opposite in Disappearance}. But in the further titles of Haruhi Suzumiya, I never hear anything about the actual plot of said "novels". The one where they make a movie, the introduction, the one where someone is missing, those are core descriptions. The rest sound more like a collection of short stories of little happenings.
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ultimatemegax
Joined: 26 Jan 2010
Posts: 412
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Posted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 4:11 pm
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walw6pK4Alo wrote: | I really do feel Endless Eight killed any good forward momentum the title had going for it. I remember spirits were high going into that season, and low coming out. It's funny to see people try to defend it with saying how how every episode was still animated differently enough, or that you're supposed to empathize with Yuki's boredom by emulating it yourself. Yeah, that's entertainment!
Also, while I generally think the movie was a more positive than negative experience (a little too long and in dire need of cuts), it's a dour and mellow film that's not exactly enthralling or going to set fire under anyone's feet. Its slow pace and narrow focus make for more introspection than excitement, the same high energy that launched Haruhi in the first place is absent. |
I see your point on the movie's feel and how different it is from the original broadcast in 2006. Very good points.
Anyone who justifies the idea of Endless Eight being 8 episodes as anything than a measure to justify greenlighting another 14 episodes in addition to making Disappearance into a movie is wrong. It's said in the guidebook that Disappearance was originally 7 episodes in a second season. Add it in place of 7 E8 episodes and... it all makes sense. Tanigawa's chances of writing 7 original stories for the anime were nil given his block at the time and the stories afterwards depend on knowing knowledge from Disappearance, so E8 was the only thing they could stretch into 7 new episodes.
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Fencedude5609
Joined: 09 Nov 2006
Posts: 5088
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Posted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 4:12 pm
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Melanchthon wrote: | Look at the other shows on that top five rescue list. The reason those shows stuck around are because they are shows that did something really cool and original --and-- were either unable or unwilling to be successfully imitated. Haruhi, bless her heart, was mined and stolen from so much that it's really not original anymore. I could probably reel off a list of a dozen shows influenced by Haruhi and her successors in the last year. |
Ok then. List them. Please.
Quote: | When was the last good anime space opera, like Outlaw Star? The only one I can think of in the last five years was Bodacious Space Pirates, and that's stretching a little. |
Mouretsu Pirates (which you mentioned, but dismissed for some reason)
Majestic Prince
Yamato 2199
Space Dandy (coming in 2014)
Quote: | Basically, if a new fan were to watch Cowboy Bebop today, it would still be relative fresh. If that fan were to watch Haruhi today, he'd be seeing things he'd already seen before in other shows. |
Asserted without evidence.
Quote: | Compare reactions of Love Hina in 2001 to today. We we first saw Haruhi, it was something amazing and special, and it's lost some of that luster. Also, there was that whole Endless Eight thing that really pissed people off. |
But we're not talking about Love Hina? Also more argleEndlessEightbargle
Quote: | And you have to watch Haruhi in broadcast (non-chronological) order, since the climax of the series is in episode 5 -- if it is watched chronologically, it is punchless. And due a lot of confusion, both in the fandom and corporate levels, this fact isn't distributed like it should be. |
Its almost like its based on a series of novels! Amazing.
Quote: | If I had to pick the start date of the 'moe era', the most logical starting point would be Cardcaptor Sakura. The first instance of 'moeblob' on the other hand, would be PitaTen, from 2002. We hit peak moeblob with K-On, and moe shows have been winding down of seasons late. |
Or we could just not do something as completely dumb as trying to put a date on a time period that doesn't actually exist.
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walw6pK4Alo
Joined: 12 Mar 2008
Posts: 9322
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Posted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 4:12 pm
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Melanchthon wrote: | When was the last good anime space opera, like Outlaw Star? The only one I can think of in the last five years was Bodacious Space Pirates, and that's stretching a little.
If I had to pick the start date of the 'moe era', the most logical starting point would be Cardcaptor Sakura. The first instance of 'moeblob' on the other hand, would be PitaTen, from 2002. We hit peak moeblob with K-On, and moe shows have been winding down of seasons late. |
Space Battleship Yamato 2199, better than the original.
I have to wonder if the "moe era" began in the 80s, or even earlier, with otaku drawing cute girls for other otaku, not necessarily just otaku watching stuff aimed at little girls like Creamy Mami. It was probably just harder to see the trend, being a doujinshi or low-key OVA thing. How does one define a show with a cute girl doing awesome things and aimed at otaku? Still moe, not?
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