Forum - View topicTexhnolyze
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adonais
Posts: 302 |
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I have to agree on that, at least!  So allow me to nitpick back.
I wonder what it is with this irritable reaching for absolutes and omniscience...it surfaced in the current "Voices of a Distant Star" thread too. I don't mean to argue, but just to clarify myself: closure, to me, doesn't imply that everything must be known and spelled out to the last letter. I meant it in the sense of a natural place for the show to end, and as it in the case of Gantz tied in fairly elegantly (IMO) with the beginning of the show, I used the term closure as in "come full circle". I guess Texhnolyze comes to a fairly definite close, and as the series went, I guess you can call it closure, but it just felt too dystopian for my liking. As an aside, there are few things in anime that I hate more than those detestable Poirot-moments (in a broad sense), where, after devoting a dozen episodes to carefully and gradually building up the plot, the usual suspecs are then gathered in a closed room and everything is spelled out to the last detail in less than five minutes. I am eternally thankful that we didn't get this sort of "closure" in Gantz (or Texhnolyze too for that matter), which would utterly have ruined it, IMO. |
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Neilworms
 Posts: 155 Location: Chicago IL |
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On compairing other works that Abe was involved in:
I thought that Texh was probably the weakest of the unconventional late night shows that Abe was attached to and Lain is the strongest. Texhnolyze just kind of petered out towards the end, and would have been much better if it were half the lenght, while the show was great for its unconventional direction, opressive style, and intriguing premise, everything in the show went too far, so far that it was hard to take seriously, oftentimes the show seemed to become a self parody, with stereotypical anime villians (towards the end, can't remember the guy's name - the long hair pretty boy villian archetype). While I loved the first couple episdoes (particularly the highly disorienting and engaging first episode, which managed to alienate most people at my local anime club when I showed it), the show just lost its spark, and by the time it ended I didn't care anymore - the whole thing felt overwrought. To sum, it seemed to me that Texh was just trying to hard to be unconventional and deep. Lain on the other hand has a clarity to it that all other unconventional late night anime haven't been able to capture since. I feel that its surrealism is what keeps it afloat and guides the viewer into its confusing and nightmareish world without loosing itself in said world. Texh tried to hard to guide the viewer in and keep them there, whereas Lain allowed hte viewer to be there without force. Lain has a much more natural flow in terms of writing and pacing, and as a result IMO is a much smarter series, its ideas while vague, dense and philosophical, are stated in a way that allows the viewer who thinks about it deeply enough to be totally emotionally engaged in the show. I'd develop these ideas better, but I have an exam to study for... so we'll leave it at that. |
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HellKorn
Posts: 1669 Location: Columbus, OH |
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To beat a *healthy* horse that hasn't been prancing around in a while...
I completely agree here, at least on your thoughts on what it means to bring on a sense of closure. If an ending is fitting to its narrative and isn't rushed, then it is a good ending, open-ended or not. Whether someone likes it or not is another matter, but it is my belief that is the one objective concept about fiction in that a finale to a tale must work with the rest of the story in its progression, themes, etc.
Well, it was pretty much dystopian from the onset.
Hence why I referred to an ending be good so as long as it is fitting to the story and isn't rushed.
To the comment on the main antagonist, spoiler[Kano was only briefly touched upon and developed as a character in Texhnolyze. It's his own ambiguity which gives the impression of him perhaps being generic, yet actually discovering his character reveals that it isn't truly the case, such as when we see brief glimpses of him in relation to Onishi and later at the very end when he makes some very telling comments to Ichise after killing Ran (which subsequently gets him killed by Ichise). I would even go as far as to say that he reminds me of Eiri Masami from Serial Experiments Lain, the main antagonist, whom we get little exposure of and less development of.]
Texhnolyze is as much as an emotional drama about humans as it is an introspection about humanity itself. If you couldn't get into the characters, then it wouldn't leave that much of an impact on you. There was never really a problem about it "trying" to be unconventional and deep, simply because it was like that from the start and never had any concept blatantly thrown at you.
I wouldn't say that Lain is the smarter series between the two. Sure, it is more philosophically dense (few in anime are near its level), but thematically Texhnolyze is just as varied as Lain. Lain never really bothered to make you personally involved in the characters outside of Lain and Alice, while Texhnolyze does the exact opposite of that for numerous viewers. The plot of Lain is also too intentionally ambiguous (don't get me wrong, I became engrossed in it but the middle portion of the section was seriously lacking up until the end of the "recap" episode) while Texhnolyze gives you its story while still leaving many mysteries. All that aside, anyone else wish to comment on Texhnolyze, whether it be something already mentioned, something new, or else thoughts from someone who just watched the anime? |
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cheezisgoooood
Posts: 253 Location: Orlando, FL |
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In my experience with anime one of my most favorite genres are the psychological mind-fudge anime.
I've seen everything from Lain to Boogiepop to NGE to everything Ghost in the Shell, and now Texh comes along and even though I've practically seen 'em all in terms of shows that are meant to confuse you, I still came out of it very impressed with the unique way in which the story was told. It was definitely in the same subgenre as all of those, but it feels very different from them in that it just has this hellish, brutal side to it with raw emotion and themes of survival that really get you thinking, without having to be overly ambiguous. Texhnolyze takes a more straightforward approach to its main story while still throwing in some obscure themes of intrigue, especially around the end where spoiler[Ichise and the others reach the surface]. To me though, the thing that Neilworms said about it trying too hard to be unconventional and deep...I just didn't feel that way at all. Other series of this type obviously try way harder in my opinion, Texhnolyze is a series you can have a very good understanding of on your first viewing, easily, because for the most part it doesn't really try to throw deep plot elements nearly as much as shows like Lain do. |
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Kruszer
 Posts: 7994 Location: Minnesota, USA |
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It's the fact that most people are curious and inquizitive by nature and when they encounter an intriguing mystery that they can not solve, it frustrates and offen infuriates them. Especially when it's something they've invested time in or become emotionally attached to. This is the same quality that has made humanity as advanced as it is today rather than living in caves and swinging in trees. It just comes with the territory. When we encounter a problem we try and solve it, and when the problem is incorrectable like a show dropping the ball and failing to answer something we were curious about all the research in the world sometimes isn't enough. Although, I'm definitely not as picky as some people. |
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Facade19
 Posts: 91 |
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absolutely blown away,
My expectations for Texhnolyze, which I built up while waiting for my complete collection set to arrive, where shattered. I am just speechless of what a beast Texhnolyze is. My expectations have been shattered. What do I mean with that? Not that they have been met, no they have been destroyed, for they could have never comprehended what Texhnolyze really is. I just had to get this out of my system. First of all, I will here declare that Texhnolyze has now conquered what I thought was the best thought provoking show (Evangelion). I will even have to go so far as to state that Texhnolyze has touched the "untouchable" RahXephon. RahXephon moved me emotional unlike any tv show (whether be it movie, anime, etc). To very transparent it achieved of making me cry. But Texhnolyze has now officially moved me beyond feelings of sadness, but of hope. It is very hard not to compare Texhnolyze with Ergo Proxy. Taking away the flesh and blood, the skeleton of Ergo Proxy is quite similar structured to Texhnolyze. However right now I will leave that comparison as I just wish to concentrate on expressing my taking(understanding) of Texhnolyze. However I will do a follow write up on the structural symmetary of Ergo Proxy to Texhnolyze. Interpretative Understanding (Mind you this is what I got of out Texhnolyze): "Technology is a metaphysics at its end." These very words come to my mind after having watched Texhnolyze. In our quest to crawl out of the cave, and see the light, we, as humans, have forgotten what makes us human. The very existence in the cave. In our arrogance to view the cave as a place of shadows, of chains, of lies, we took the path of crawling out of the cave. In order to see the "light" we left behind all that we knew in the cave. In this dialectical, we jump from one point to the other point. From contradictions we splunge into the future. The cave was the place that gave content to the context. But we were not pleased with it. In the process of getting closer to the "light" we kept on losing more and more of our humaness, and more and more became more not-human. Human in the sense of retaining the original condition (spiritual condition). As we step closer and closer, the more dead we come inside, the more vain we see all around us. In this process we came to accept many things of our own inventions of truth, absolute truths that have led to many ill omens to be fallen on us. We came to view this constructed world as naturally. Though we know that this world is fake, we maintain a sort of reality within it. Though we know that this world will not be everlasting, we make it out to be the best of all. Many ideas pop out, ideas such as using humans as a means to a means. Humans have become technolgy themselves. We do not see technology as a means to better our situatin (physical conditions that threaten us), but rather technology has become a way out of the boredom that this very drive for evolving has created. The sense of any purpose for advancement has become non-existent. Out of this non-existents people become dead, dead as humans. They now become mechanistic units of continuation. We just keep on going. That keeping on, the drive in itself has now become the reason for the drive. What once was the intention has been replaced with the it itself. By the desire of seeing into the future, by hoping to control our own future, by hoping to control all around us, in reality, things are just becoming worse. A depencey exists that makes people go crazy left and right. This push towards the light has blinded people so much as they do not know why they do things. All they know is that they do it. There is so much more to add, but I rather save that (or more like I need to put my thoughts together, much better than what I have done so far). One element that I absolutely love about Texhnolyze is that instead of building the plot around dialogue, the plot is built around the constant flow of action. While in Ergo Proxy, IMO, an "invert" journey is presented, which relies/depends on heavy dialogue drive sequences to provoke thought in the viewer, in Texhnolyze the impressions of the actions, of the environment provoke thought, and seek to engage the "reader". Not that I am denying that Ergo Proxy has its own fair share of Impressionism, I just sincerely belief that less words, more emphasis on the very Impressions that Texhnolyze gives does overall a better job of allowing more liberty, and ultimately more engagement. Another element of Texhnolyze that I love is that it does not demand of the audience to be aware of many different ideas (come to understand the context by having already prior extensive knowledge of the context). For instance in Ergo Proxy, we have names such as Lacan, Berkeley, Derrida, Deluze, Guttari etc. flowing around, and some of their ideas are being shown. Now unless someone would have done a research before having actualy heard these names in Ergo Proxy, the viewer would be confused IMO at the very moment of the presentation. Though this can also suggest that a reason for a second, more attentive viewing is given, IMO it also can lead to viewers feeling discouraged. Both shows draw heavily on symbolic meanings IMO, and I think the masks of the Gabe people must have meaning that I do not know yet, but I will not rest until I find the more deeper semiotic system. I will definately watch Texhnolyze for another run (though after Boobiepop Phantom). This time I will slow it down, watching an episode per day, and actually pause when I find something of necessary or interesting value, write it down, and continue this process. Shows such as Texhnolyze and Ergo Proxy IMO are just like any other philosophy book out there. One should pay great attention, highlight, mark and perform a dialogue with the text. I will later on write more on my reaction and impressions, and additionally give a character analysis. Another thing I would like add before open the floor, is that in Texhnolyze, at times, the main characters become the support characters. There were many times where I thought that Onishi (sp?) was more in the focus than Ichise or Ran. Though I can see where one might argue that the Doc and Onishi were emphasized at parts to give context to Ichise, and his relationship towards Ran, I must just applaud Texhnolyze for its grounding on many character development and presentation. For now though this initial reaction must suffice till later. Thank you for reading this, and please feel free to guide me to a much clearer understanding of Texhnolyze. Thank you!!! 
[EDIT: Merged this user's thread with an older one. -TK] |
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Isikari
 Posts: 118 |
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First of all, although I've never seen an episode of Texhnolyze, you've convinced me to watch the first couple to see if I like the show.
Next, I want to complement you on your extensive reference to Plato's Allegory of the Cave. You used it very well, although I admit some of it was a tad confusing (That will probably sort itself out when I watch some Texhnolyze). Now, tell me if I'm interpreting this right, but from what you've said I take it that this show takes place in a futuristic dystopia where technology has integrated itself into our lives in unexpected and altogether negative ways over the years; that progress for progress' sake is the mantra of the day. If so, this series bears a close resemblance to CyberPunk literature (a la William Gibson). Let me know if the conclusions I drew from your post are correct. I'll let you know what I think of the show when I've watched a few eps. ~ Isikari |
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Facade19
Posts: 91 |
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thanks!
I am not too sure what time setting one can describe the story to take place, but be rest assured that it has so many elements of CyperPunk that Texhnolyze is categorized CyperPunk. Regarding negative effects, there are many; but I also take a couple positive elements from Texhnolyze. spoiler[For one thing life will continue on (life as in nature will (re)occur with you and me, or without you and me.] |
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HellKorn
Posts: 1669 Location: Columbus, OH |
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If you want my additional thoughts on the ending, see the bottom of this post.
---
Heh, I had similar sentiments the first time I finished watching it. I was absolutely stunned not just at Texhnolyze itself, but that something like it could be created in anime.
Like I said in the Ergo Proxy thread, create a new thread for any "Ergo Proxy to Texhnolyze" comparisons.
The city of Lukuss epitomizes this. spoiler[The environment is a living hell where people are constantly swept up in either the violence or else under the oppressive rule and attempted changes going about.] More on that later.
The issue of evolution aside, it is also important to note spoiler[the undesirables were collected and shut away underground, away from society,] as well as what rafia actually is.
Quite true. Consider as well the use of technology right now: computers, television, radio, movie theaters, etc.
Ichise's way of life spoiler[-- just getting by every single day to live another, utterly lost as to why he's alive --] symbolizes this greatly. As noted by Kagemusha earlier in this thread, we first see him in a basic, primal, almost animalistic state. He continues to live simply to live.
We see the results of this at the end. spoiler[Texhnolyzation has been abandoned, and we see the Shapes take over with Kano's will and essential overthrowing of the principles of the Class. Yet, by their creation, it creates a divide between those that want to move on to an artificial advance in evolution and those that want to continue on living as they are. This split tears apart the city and only leaves madness left. Ran tries her part by keeping the Shapes in place at the end. Onishi refuses to give into it and continues on as he has. Ichise seeks out Ran to bring her to the surface, hoping to save her, perhaps in part because of us failure to save his mother years earlier. Kano realizes the futility of it all and, subconsciously or not, seeks out a sort of suicide, an end, from Ichise.] As for your further comparison of Ergo Proxy and Texhnolyze, I'll respond to those in another thread.
Looking forward to it.
I wouldn't say that some characters at times became support characters. The major players are each important in their own way, and each are given a fair amount of focus on them as characters and growth. Ichise is clearly the main character in all of this, though, even if he doesn't handle the majority of the screen time. His story is spoiler[largely allegoric and tragic with some sort of "hope," if you will,] which I'll address below in conjunction with my added thoughts concerning the ending.
It will become evident once you watch it, particularly by the end of the series.
I'd say sometime in the near future, though a lot of the social commentary and themes are occurring right now and in many ways have been happening for as long as humanity has had established and organized dwellings.
There's something else I'd like to address about that, and it takes me to a further analysis concerning the ending that I referred to above. --- spoiler[Texhnolyze ends on, a superficial level, an absolute, dark, and depressing note. Lukuss had spun into a sea of anarchy and death. We saw why Yoshii had come down to the city by escaping the rather chilling and utterly apathetic setting of the surface world. The factions that we have come to know -- Gabe, the Organ, the Alliance, the Rakan, and the Class -- are all gone and their members either converted to Shapes or else dead, including their leaders of the first four mentioned, the Elder of Gabe, Onishi, Kimata, and Shinji. Ichise returns and finds a "dead Ran converted" into a Shape by Kano, who he kills in a fit of rage. Then, after we see Ichise give the girl a "burial," he lays among the ruins of the city, stares at a holographic projection of a lotus flower, and then presumably dies as the scene fades to black.] Before I go on, I note that one aspect that I failed to take notice of the first time that I watched Texhnolyze is how Buddhism is referred to and creates a significant portion of the spiritual aspects in the series. I mention the lotus flower specifically because of its importance in the religion.
Comparing that with the various incarnations of the lotus flower, and the type of flower than Ran carries with her, it's fairly obvious that it is a lotus. I should also be noted that there are further symbolic tie-ins with the first ending theme, "Poem of the Moon," which I first mistakenly thought the child in it was Ichise as a child. We see Ran with the lotus on her face, which I supposed could be thought of her way of communicating her own intentions, or just to further represent her role and purpose in the story. It also could be as Kagemusha said earlier:
I'll cover that another time. Going on to the specific relevance of the flower, in the last shot that I spoke of above, spoiler[Ichise sees a projected image of the lotus through his texhnolyzed arm and smiles before he dies.] One could certainly perceive it as Kagemusha briefly described, spoiler[the concept of the lotus and Ran, the image of religion, giving a sign of hope,] and I agree to an extent, though I'll take it even more by drawing comparisons between it, Facade19's initial impressions of what Texhnolyze ultimately meant, and one of the fundamental concepts in Buddhism. spoiler[Ichise has been lost, unknowing of any reason as to why he is alive, why he should stay alive, and without any direction. This is perfectly captured in the earlier episodes when Ichise is beaten and thrown into the sewers, desperate to find a way out of the darkness. Finally, multiple lotus flowers, above the murky, muddy waters, put out by Ran float towards him and he begins to follow them. Eventually by going down the path given to him, he manages to escape from the sewers and into the light where he is exhausted yet finally free. This then serves to illustrate one point in Buddhism where we seek to break away from the disillusions we face in life. We try to separate ourselves from the suffering that we have to endure in order to see reality for what it really is. My own comprehension of it is very limited, but I can say that in a way this is employed in the Four Noble Truths. There are similarities shared between Facade19's analysis as well. Ichise comes to discover this. He has gone through many trials, difficulties, etc. and in combination with the "death and rebirth" and relation to Buddhism, we can assume that this is not his only life, but rather yet another incarnation. Here he has come to know of the real circumstances of his father's death and we see Ichise apologize to him in the surface world. He has found purpose and direction once more by trying to save Ran from a harsh fate that his mother had went through. He's seen carnage and destruction, seen peace and in spite the horrid lack of human will to it acknowledges it, etc. Through all of these experiences Ichise has learned more of these truths in life and one might say that he has taken the right steps not just to redemption but also to Enlightenment.] --- That's more of my take on the finale. It's a culmination of things said in this thread, help from Wikipedia, and also from the few lessons that I've attended at a Karma Center here in Columbus. By any luck it provides a more spoiler[helpful, perhaps even hopeful outlook] at Texhnolyze for those who read it. I look forward to any feedback that anyone might have on it. Finally, I really want to rewatch the entire series soon; most likely during the summer since I plan on viewing all of the Yasuyuki Ueda/Yoshitoshi ABe series during that time. I'll start another thread then to give an incredibly in-depth analysis by volume, perhaps even by episode. For those that remember DKL's incredible and long analysis of the Monster series, it will be something in the same vein. If you're curious then I hope that you look out for it. Edit: Fixed a link and reworded a few phrases. Last edited by HellKorn on Mon Feb 26, 2007 6:54 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Facade19
Posts: 91 |
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HellKorn, it was a pleasure reading your analysis.
I will add more in depth comments, but for now I must excuse myself, as I need to attend to my studies. I will however, once done for today, return to the thread and emphasize on various points more. And I hope the mods will not lock the comparison thread of Ergo Proxy to Texhnolyze. In all seriousness, I pretty much now think that Ergo Proxy borrowed, may I say copied, structural unity from Texhnolyze. More to that later. I hope now with the Texhnolyze thread revisited, more people go ahead and come to enjoy and know the beautiful lesson that Texhnolyze is.
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DKL
 Posts: 1962 Location: California, USA |
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Just to add something...
I recently re-watched Texhnolyze and, while I still really really like it, I still can't help but let out a little (huge) giggle in the ending when Kano goes: "I mated with Lukkuss." ... But then, considering everything, that's actually what he did (and he also broke the ugly cycle that his mothers went through in which they would mate with their... children, or something). Anyway, I'll probably give this a read-through when I have time... though, that's no real guarantee since I can't even start my GITS:SAC in another forum (which is too bad since I had a pretty good summary of the flow of the mystery...) |
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Facade19
Posts: 91 |
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The more I think about the Gabe and their masks, the more I get the feeling/idea that maybe there is some deeper meaning. For instance what I have in my mind is that the masks maybe represent deterministic faith spoiler[(remember that the Old Sage kept on reiterating that whatever the Seer {Ran} saw, will come true and any efforts to go against the flow would be futuile).] Like I said in my originial post, I find hope and power in Texhnolyze, in that is shows that the future is not so pre-determined as some ideologies might prescribe it to be. spoiler[The Gabe then hide behinds the masks of faith maybe as to show that they do not take action because of their very faith. Just a thought that I wanted to throw out here.
] Another point that I want to go into detail (sadly time does not permit me to do so right now) is the boredom that constant "progress" brings. spoiler[The best example that comes to my mind right now is the world above, and Yoshi (sp?) who comes down from the Upper World and wants to see spectacles. Certainly one can read other alternative motives from Yoshi's acts, but the destructive force of contiunal technological "improvement" and its impact on the human being here is what I see as quite disturbing and important. ] For now however I must let these two small view points be. On Friday I will hopefully be able to finally start the Ergo Proxy to Texhnolyze comparison thread. I have two exams on Friday, so please understand why I have not already initiated the comparison thread. Additionally I will also contribute more thoughts to Texhnolyze.
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Mohawk52
 Posts: 8202 Location: England, UK |
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Kruszer
Posts: 7994 Location: Minnesota, USA |
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Yes, Texhnolyze is completely fatalistic, I have no idea how one would feel hope from spoiler[ the complete destruction of humanity.] unless it makes you want to change yourself or go make the world a better place.
As for comparing it to Ergo Proxy, I've seen them both. They're like apples and oranges really, I don't see the connection, though whenever you write that comparison I'd be interested to read it. They do have some very basic common themes but the presentation is different. If anything it's more simmiliar to Ghost in the Shell, but I don't care for that comparison either. Run for your life, Zombie Thread! Last edited by Kruszer on Fri Mar 23, 2007 9:20 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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HellKorn
Posts: 1669 Location: Columbus, OH |
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Heh, well, technically that is correct as you note. Though I don't remember the subtitles presenting that. Is that in the English dub by any chance? (I do plan on watching the series in English the next time, just to note.) The line itself is correct, and I'd think alternatives such as spoiler["I became one with Lukuss," or "I merged with Lukuss"] would work just as well.
Bah, motivation can be a pain when it comes to taking a long hard look and analyzing works of fiction like these. Personally I still don't know how you were able to delve so far into Monster like you did.
The fox mask is a common... well, just read this from the official English site by Geneon.
The thing is though that one of the primary elements in Texhnolyze is inevitability. I took it more as not that everything is set in stone beforehand but once certain actions take place the consequences are unavoidable. And as for the matter of hope and power... uh, I'll address that below.
... Not quite fully understanding what you're alluding to, but I think you're basically saying that spoiler[these destructive forces we encounter are sometimes needed in order to bring about progress. If there is no focus, no desire to go forward and just sit by while living in our twilight years like those on the surface world, then nothing will come of it.] It's a simple but very real truth, as particularly evidenced by the innumerable advances that have come out of war, both beneficial and harmful.
That's further driven home with the vocal track, "When Reason Fails. An incredibly sad song which reminds me of lounge music in style.
I think a lot of it is difference in culture(s) and beliefs. As I noted above, just taking from a surface viewpoint, Texhnolyze is an utterly dark story. Beyond that, though, when taking in the narrative and the Buddhist symbolism above, I wouldn't classify the series ultimately as neither a happy one, nor would I classify it as a sad one, either. What one of the major overarching themes tells us with Ichise's story from start to finish is one of spoiler[a type of transformation with realizing important truths about life,] in addition to the overtones of spoiler["death and rebirth"] (a common theme considering we're dealing with a very "Eastern story") and spoiler[escaping the suffering we face in this world.] I'm reminded very much so of Heaven & Earth, where, without giving anything away, a lot of awful and tragic things happen to and around the leading female, yet at the same time by the film's finale the tale isn't a depressing one but something closer to an uplifting piece. (Great movie, by the way.)
Admittedly it doesn't help when you have everyone on every other site and forum comparing Ergo Proxy to the Ghost in the Shell franchise and Texhnolyze, which are very superficial comparisons that are really based on the first few episodes.
Tony K. has already given his approval, so I'm free to analyze and praise as much as I wish. 
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