Forum - View topic[OT] Quick Question on Japanese Grammar.
|
Goto page 1, 2 Next |
| Author | Message | |||
|---|---|---|---|---|
Hisdon
 Posts: 411 Location: Poquoson, VA |
|
|||
|
After watching a lot of Anime w/ subs on I've been trying to pick up on how Japanese grammer works just by what I'm hearing compared to what they are saying. However, there's one thing I keep noticing that that is confusing me big time.
Pronouns; there seems to be a lack of them for any point of view. When two characters are talking to one another and refers to the other, they sometimes address them by name as if they were an object instead of using something like "you" (for example, "I love <name>" instead of "I love you") Also instead of saying something like "He was here" you hear "name was here." However, this doesn't seem to always the case, and sometimes it seems they DO use pronouns. I've never heard someone repeat their own name when refering to themselves as well. Do they use pronouns or not? Is there a rule where sometimes you use the noun and other times the pronoun? [EDIT: Fixed your topic title to be a little more specific. -TK] |
||||
|
||||
Tony K.
 SubscriberModerator  Posts: 11441 Location: Frisco, TX |
|
|||
|
Yes, they use pronouns. Off the top of my head, there's:
Kareshi = him Kanojo = her Aitsu = ambigious person or "thing" (I believe) -tachi = put on the end of someone's name to specify his or her group of people/friends The 3 I's Watashi = most formal version Ore = more vulgar form Boku = mainly used by young boys The 5 You's Anata = most formal Anta = for people who are somewhat intimate with each other Omae = kind of the general form, but considered vulgar sometimes depending on who you say it to Temei = insulting, but not all out Kisama = that or yarou is usually equated to the English form of "you, bastard!," but it's not really cursing. It's just something you'd say if someone really ticked you off. It's more like "why, YOU!!!" And yarou is somthing like "rascal." I've heard konou, but I never found out what it was. I don't know enough about actual grammar to say what goes where, but I think it was something like 'subject-object-verb." But again, I could be wrong. |
||||
|
||||
coldfusion5050
 Posts: 93 |
|
|||
|
Well, from what I have learned, even though they do have and use pronouns, omission of said pronouns or using a person's name in place of where English speakers would put one is not out of the question.
I think the usage changes on the basis of personal prefence and/or situation. |
||||
|
||||
|
frentymon
Forums Superstar
 Posts: 2362 Location: San Francisco |
|
|||
|
Referring to people by name rather than "you" when talking to them is a cultural thing, I believe, and while originally intended to convey respect, it's just part of the language and culture of Japan today. Some of our traditions and language quirks might seem strange to them, and the converse is certainly true as well.
As Tony K. mentioned, there are pronouns, lots of them, and they actually are used quite often. To add to the list: - "Kimi" is also "you", and is typically used to refer to males (although I see that rule broken in anime all the time). Less formal than "anata", more formal than "omae". -Hakuoro from Utawarermono refers to himself as "jibun", which literally means "myself". I believe it's an archaic way of referring to yourself and I've never seen it used outside of Utaware. -"Atashi" stems from "watashi", but has no kanji and is written in all hiragana. It is an informal "cutesy" way for girls to refer to themselves. -"Kono" (not "konou") literally means "this", and is a rude way to refer to someone. From what I see, you are treating that person at that level of an object (which is what "kono" is usually used for). -"Kare" is him, "kareshi" actually means "boyfriend". -In addition to -tachi, -ra also refers to a group of people, and examples include "bokura", "omaera", "orera". |
||||
|
||||
SharinganEyes92
 Posts: 816 |
|
|||
|
Ok, I'll take al the pronouns out of my book Japanese in Mangaland (it's a GREAT book for beginners who are looking to learn the language. I highly recommend it!):
First Person Singular Pronouns: Watakushi (very formal) Watashi (formal) + Atakushi (used for females) Boku (informal) (masculine) + Atashi (feminine) Ore (very informal) (masc.) First Person Plural: Watakushidomo (very formal) Watakushitachi (formal) + Watashitachi Bokutachi + Bokura (informal) (masc.) + Atashitachi + Atashira (fem.) Oretachi (very informal) (masc.) Second Person Singular: Anata (formal) Kimi (masc.) Omae + Anta Second Person Plural: Anatagata (very formal) Kimitachi + Kimira (informal) (masc.) + Anatatachi (fem.) Omaetachi + Omaera (very informal) (masc.) + Anatatachi + Anatara Quoting my book, "Traditionally, the Japanese don't use "he" or "she" pronouns much. They simply use the name or title of the person they want to talk about". However there are pronouns for "he" and "she". They are kare (he) and kanojo (she).
The structure is like that. The verb comes at the end of the sentence. Of course, you specify the role of each noun (subject, direct object, indirect object, location) with the use of particles, which are unique to the Japanese and Korean (?) languages. |
||||
|
||||
Webki
 Posts: 299 Location: Albany, NY |
|
|||
|
I've taken a few side classes from native Japanese. From what I know from them, the pronoun "anata" is almost ALWAYS avoided. All of the native speakers (who teach classes at the Japan Society in NYC and have masters and PhDs in Japanese Language teaching) all agree that "anata" is a very impolite thing. It is almost disrespectful. This is only with the "you" pronoun though. So, instead of addressing someone as "you," they just use the person's name again. Subs will usually translate this as "you."
I don't know where you are getting "anata" as formal, but it definitely isn't. P.S. - I quickly leafed through my Japanese for Busy People KANA version, and they list anata as a "you" pronoun as well. This is weird, as this was the book... er, "used" by the teachers at the Japan Society (I say that because they never really used it), and they were the ones who told me that it is, indeed, very impolite. |
||||
|
||||
|
Zalis116
Moderator
 Posts: 6900 Location: Kazune City |
|
|||
And "jibun" does get some use, again in somewhat formal situations when the speaker is expressing humility. I believe Sousuke in FMP uses it as part of his whole military demeanor, and I'm fairly sure I've heard it elsewhere (especially since I've never seen "That which is sung" = my literal translation of the title  ).
|
||||
|
||||
|
fighterholic
Posts: 9193 |
|
|||
When talking to my sempai's in high school, I was taught to use jibun when referring to myself in front of my sempai's or teachers at school. So this is kind of up the ladder on the level of formality. |
||||
|
||||
|
Hisdon
Posts: 411 Location: Poquoson, VA |
|
|||
|
hrm, I guess it's like vanaculars kinda then, okay.
One other question, what exactly is an Osaka accent? (sp?) Is it like, say a Southern Accent in Japanese? |
||||
|
||||
|
Webki
Posts: 299 Location: Albany, NY |
|
|||
Mmm, not really. If you want more information, google or wikipedia "Kansai-ben." That is the dialect of Osaka, Kyoto, and that region. Also, an interesting tidbit - Kansai-ben is the unofficial official (heh) dialect of Japanese comedians. |
||||
|
||||
MorwenLaicoriel
 Posts: 1617 Location: Colorado |
|
|||
|
On the 'anata' thing...
If I remember right, I think my Japanese teacher told me that 'anata' is only used in VERY informal, intimate settings. In fact, I think it's only used by a wife, to her husband, when there's *nobody* else around. A Japanese audience watching a wife call her husband this in a movie would feel as though they were snooping on a private moment. (I think it's also sometimes translated as 'darling', although I'm not sure about that.) So, yeah, using 'anata' towards someone you don't know very well would be akward...at best. Also, BTW, be reeeally careful using Japanese you learn from anime. Anime tends to us *very* informal Japanese, so you would DEFINATELY not want to use Japanese you've learned from watching anime at a business meeting, at least without checking it first. In fact, I wouldn't use any of it without checking it first ^^;. For example: After watching 'Spirited Away' and hearing the baby call Obaba, his mother, 'baba', I asked my teacher if it was an informal title for 'mother.' Her response: Sensei: *horrified* NO! NEVER call your mother that! Other Student: I think it means something like 'old hag', right? Sensei: That's the NICE way of translating it. So, uh, yeah. Be reeeally careful. ^^;;; |
||||
|
||||
|
fighterholic
Posts: 9193 |
|
|||
Don't forget about Aomori-ben, Hiroshima-ben and Okinawa-ben. |
||||
|
||||
|
Webki
Posts: 299 Location: Albany, NY |
|
|||
I didn't forget them... He just asked for the dialect of Osaka, which is Kansai-ben. By the way, don't you go forgetting Kanto-ben! This one is on college entrance exams. |
||||
|
||||
|
fighterholic
Posts: 9193 |
|
|||
I was in the area for ten years and used it so much, but didn't get the view of "outsiders" from other regions, I didn't know that. 
|
||||
|
||||
Gauss
 Posts: 519 Location: Finland |
|
|||
The impression I have is that anata is an intimate you that's used for your loved one, not some taboo word restricted to married couples. I've heard it used fairly frequently in love songs where translated lyrics make it clear it's not about a married couple. I don't think the singers are going for shock value but reflecting accepted usage among younger listeners. |
||||
|
||||
 |
All times are GMT - 5 Hours |
|
|
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group