Forum - View topicNEWS: Bandai: Do Not Fansub Ghost in the Shell Film
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TAKAVAR
 Posts: 138 Location: Canada |
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Do they honestly think they can control masses with such lame anouncements.
get a grip of reality. |
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ironwarrior
 Posts: 151 Location: Under Clare's armor, Lewisburg, WV |
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Bandai is engaging in a bit of "inverse negative marketing" (for lack of a better phrase); wherein, they gamble whether their tactic will produce a huge amount of fansubs which acts as free marketing and a possible increase in sales; or fan backlash against the company which will adversely affect their sales.
Either way, the outdated legal system regarding copyright provides a nice "CYA" (Cover Your Ass) for corporate management during a board of directors meeting if profits fall. Regardless of any market slowdown based on economic indicators, the "legal distribution" issue nicely exonerates poor fiscal management or other internal corporate issues. Personally, when a company makes draconian statements like this, I will absolutely NOT buy their DVDs. Also, I may even avoid future fansubs when I read the "Bandai" logo. Until I see absolute and conclusive proof from unbiased sources that fansubbing adversely affects the industry, I will consider corporate statements such as Bandai's to be of questionable value. If anything, fansubbing has the potential to increase sales since saturation market economics is a basis for profitablity within commerical media distribution. For the people who zealously argue for DVD purchases as if it is a means to sainthood, I present these scenarios: 1) I borrow a DVD from a friend, watch it, and give it back without copying it. Where is the profit? 2) I wait until a company like ADV has a 40-60% off sale and purchase my DVDs then. Where is the profit? How does a sale possibly recoup lost revenue? 3) I give my fansub collection of a particular anime to say 10 people who do not normally watch anime and 3 decide to purchase the entire DVD series. Was this profitable for the company? What if they follow my advice about patience and waiting for a sale like ADV has? If you have ANY inkling regarding market economics, these questions should be easy to answer. HINT: All the above can be exceptionally profitable--I want the "why?" Last edited by ironwarrior on Wed Aug 23, 2006 2:48 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Deltakiral
 Posts: 3338 Location: Glendora, CA (Avatar Hei from Darker than BLACK) |
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I'm proud of Bandai for their press release. A series such as GITS doesn't need to be fansub. What was the original intent of fansub? So that people on the other side of the Pacific would learn about different anime titles. Nearly anyone who enjoys anime knows of the Ghost in the shell Universe.
I don't know what your current financial status is, but your right there still going to make money. However that said, it would be like me asking you to work an entire week and then not paying you your entire (Perhaps I only pay for Monday-Thursday work) due wages. Fansub does hurt/help the industry, but if a company comes out and directly announces a specific title like this I believe it best to just to listen to their wages. Not only that who wants to ruin their experience of GITS by watching it on the computer? Not me, I rather wait for the DVD and enjoy it on my nice tv with my good sound system. Till next time, Delta Kiral |
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championferret
 Posts: 765 |
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From animenewsservice:
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ironwarrior
Posts: 151 Location: Under Clare's armor, Lewisburg, WV |
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OT, but not a jibe. Nowadays, a media center is the way to go. I have my computer connected to my 61" projection TV via a breakout box and RGB cables. Incredible clarity, but unfortunately, noticable pixelation at times from fansubber's who use improper compression algorithims. In fact, my DVD player broke, and at present, I see no reason to get a new one since I can control the video and sound output more precisely through my computer. Pardon this OT commercial! Back to the war! |
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DemonEyesLeo
 Posts: 844 Location: Japan |
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Wow. Quite a turn out.
I applaud Bandai for this. The whole purpose of fansubbing is to build a following and encourage a licensor to pick it it up. Once the license has been aquired there is no need for fansubs. At least this is how it used to be. Now we get people with the idea that anime is their right. I have one question for those who think this: do you work for free? Do you get up everyday and go to work, be it construction, a desk job, white collar, blue collar, black collar or whatever, and not get compensated for it in some way?
Oh, so tell us a way to do so. BBC and CBC get money through advertising. PBS gets its money through donations by its viewers. In other words, people are still paying for PBS, it isn't free. Yes many viewers may not give money, but if everyone stopped then it would have to shut down and then all its viewers would be SOL.
Not really. Slavery can be defined as work done for little or no pay. By having someone work to create something for your benefit but to not compensate them in anyway is a form of slavery. Perhaps not in the sense that you got your own personal animator, but your still not compensating them.
Perhaps they may not need it, but wouldn't you like to get everything you can from something you did? Something that your intellect created and that is allowing you to live each day in comfort? |
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bayoab
Posts: 831 |
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Congratulations, you have just entered the ultimate paradox. What is an unbiased source to you? The only source that could provide proof of the effects of fansubs is the companies and I am sure you don't consider jsevakis' (an industry rep) post or the funimation rep's post on AoD that we will be seeing more of this enough proof. You are caught in your own logical trap.
People will download the sub and decide that since they got it for free and they didn't experience euphoria from watching it, there is no reason to purchase it. Edit: 200 is too nice. |
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RDespair
 Posts: 245 Location: California |
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People stealing your product isn't free marketing. Making a trailer of cool clips from the movie is marketing (which is why I'm fine with AMVs since a few have gotten me interested in checking out a series without outright giving the series to me free of charge). Providing the entire movie complete with inbedded translation is theft. Yes, some people buy the DVDs for anime that they download, but I imagine most people do not. Moreover, I imagine that there are many people out there who do not buy anime DVDs or buy fewer DVDs than they would otherwise, because they can just download thousands of series for free. The argument that such people wouldn't buy any anime anyways has always struck me as silly - if they enjoy watching anime and their free sources disappeared, I daresay they'd come up with a way to buy official anime DVDs. Although I can see some of the justifications for obscure titles that are unlikely to ever be released in English (no direct loss of revenue for the company since they weren't planning on entering the English market anyway) and I myself have enjoyed "fansubs" for old videogames that were never officially released in the US (although I would buy an official licensed version if someone released those games in the future), there's no such justification for this Ghost in the Shell movie. Ghost in the Shell is far from obscure and an English version is already announced. Fansub it to make a statement? It's like someone saying "Don't rob our bank or we'll send the police after you" and your response is "I'll rob that bank just to spite them." If you fansub the GitS movie, the only statement you're making is that fansubbing is as wrong as Bandai says it is. Last edited by RDespair on Wed Aug 23, 2006 3:48 am; edited 2 times in total |
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ChichiriMuyo
Posts: 201 |
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The gauntlet has been thrown down, but it seems that Bandai only cares about protecting this one release. Maybe a release has to be a special case like this one for the American companies to care.
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xstylus
 Posts: 272 |
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Soooo... what you're effectively saying is that the legal mechanism which makes one's efforts in creating art a sustaining endeavor should be eliminated, and that art should only be made pro-bono on one's spare time using whatever dumpster salvaged gimptech equipment one could cobble together, all while trying to juggle a full-time job at McD's, right? No-one would shout louder than I the fact that Copyright needs to be massively overhauled and made FAR less restrictive as well as shorter, but even I will admit eliminating it altogether would yield disastrous results.
Soooo... what you're effectively saying is that you want anime to no longer be released in America anymore at all, and that the only way of watching it should be through downloads composed of lego blocks with translations of questionable accuracy, formatting, and professionalism, not to mention the disappearance of conventions such as AX and Otakon since there's no US anime industry nor would there be any GOHs who'd want to give us bootlegger Americans the time of day. I suppose I'll spare the details on how a majority of the Japanese anime companies would simply dry up and die instantly if licensing money from the US anime industry suddenly stopped flowing.
Soooo... what you're saying is that only the rich should pay, and everyone else should get it for free. Huh. Interesting concept. If that were reality, what would be the motivation to strive for wealth and success? Heck, gimmie the poor life, baby! I'll quit my job right now! Besides, a job takes up time better spent watchin' anime, right? Good thinkin'! Uhm, yeah. We already have something like that. It's a little something' called welfare. While it may give food-stamps and medicare, free anime ain't included in that package, sorry to say. Besides, you're probably not an illegal immigrant so I doubt you'd qualify even if it did. 
Should every copy be restricted? No. Single generation sharing with friends to get them interested should be okay. Backup copies should be okay. Being able to make derrivative fanart (AMVs, wallpapers, etc) from the work should be okay. The trick is in allowing all that while thwarting the leechers who feel they should get stuff for free because they're a poor little tween whose mommy doesn't give them enough allowance.
Although true of some of these chuckleheads, I'd say this thread is ripe for a lock. It's impossible to have a thread discussing anything pertaining to fansubs without it degenerating into a flame war. Last edited by xstylus on Wed Aug 23, 2006 4:27 am; edited 5 times in total |
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hikaru004
 Posts: 2306 |
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Hey guys, look at what championferret posted.
Thanks for answering part of my question championferret. So, they are basically going to loose their shirts on this one as soon as this airs if 1 raw gets in circulation. Why did they set themselves up in this type of situation from the beginning? It's not good business sense. |
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Steventheeunuch
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They're under the impression that their fanbase doesn't hate them for no reason besides their own retarded prejudice (uhhh preference! thats a P word!) and that their 'fans' lack ethics. *edited for clarity* Last edited by Steventheeunuch on Wed Aug 23, 2006 4:53 am; edited 1 time in total |
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mrploddy
Posts: 17 |
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Ok heres a take from a fansubber (me)
Firstly please don't quote the Berne Convention at me I know it all too well. Fansubbing is illegal full stop / nada yada yada yada. I'm talking purely on a moral ground. To begin with I personally applaud Bandai for protecting their license. I wish more companies would take a more proactive stance. There are a lot of companies who for one reason or another are very wishy washy about announcing licenses. If companies announced stuff ASAP it would put many ETHICAL fansubbers off fansubbing a show because they respect the R1 licensors. This was the case with Shana and Ergo Proxy, most high profile groups didn't touch these with some rather silly exceptions. You need to make some distinctions here between the people that move in the fan community - Category 1 - Old School Fansubber - These are people from the early days, they sub a show to get it licensed and then drop it straight after a license announcement, pull distro and encourage people to buy the legit version. Category 2 - New School Fansubber - These are the f**k R1 company types and just want to sub stuff so they can get it for free. Category 3 - DVD Rippers - People who rip R1's and distro them on the interweb. It's Categories 2 and 3 that are giving ethical fansubbers a bad name and whats creating so many problems in the industry today. Whilst a lot of attention is on the fansubbers I do believe more attention should be given to DVD rippers as I could easily point you to some groups that are ripping R1's with gay abandon. That's hurting the industry more than fansubbers because they're ripping the product that the R1 companies have worked so hard to make. It's ridiculous actually, I've been to some DVD ripper IRC channels and they have a more improessive IRC distro and more people in their channel than a lot of fansub groups !!!. R1 companies should stomp on em like the flies that they are, there is simply no excuse for ripping DVD's. Turning to Category 1 and 2. It's said to say but over the past 2 years I've seen a growing trend of a move towards Category 2 fansubbers. A lot of the "old" groups are dying away and the new fansubbers have the "anime should be free" mentality and they just dont give a damn. I don't like it one bit. A lot of "old" fansubbing groups are dying out and leaving these whippersnappers to give fansubbing a bad name. Back in the old days it used to be all about VHS fansubbing and fansubbers worked downright hard to persuade R1 companies to spend money on licenses and it worked. However the culture today is towards leecher popularity. New age fansubbers pick the latest and greatest shows because they want to get "leecher popularity" and "l33tness". Thats what leads to oversubbing of the top drawer shows and it leaves a lot of hidden classics overlooked and forgotten. If fansubbing has any chance of surviving the legal challenges people need to move away from this mentality of subbing the latest and greatest shows out of Japan (which scream out "this will get licensed) in the name of leecher popularity. Fansubbing isn't about getting 80,000+ downloads on a torrent but for a lot of fansubbers these days thats all that they care about. It's happened in my group for a show that was a sure fire license and lo and behold it did get licensed and I didn't agree with it one bit. If fansubbing is going to survive, it's the people that actually pick and choose the shows that they sub carefully in the hope that fans will generate enough buzz for a company to actually stop and take a look at it and maybe take a risk. Thats how it used to be. Fansubbers would sub a show and R1 companies would take a look and take a risk on a property but those days are now long gone. Each and every anime season probably perhaps 15 - 20 shows start each season and you can be gaurenteed that 80% of it will get subbed by fansubbers with 3 or 4 shows getting 3 or 4 groups doing it because they're the top drawer shows eg you're Gunday Seed's of this world etc. If you were to do statistical analysis of the shows that were being subbed I would bet you would find that most fansub releases these days consist of shows that have been released to Japanese TV in the past year and only a fraction of the shows would come under the categorization of "overlooked" anime. I personally am a fansubber of "overlooked" anime because I don't see why I should waste my time and effort in subbing shows that stand a pretty good chance of getting licensed and will undoubtedly get subbed by 3 or 4 groups at the same time because it's new. Theres a heck of a lot more old anime out there than there is the new shows which come out every season which over 75% of the fansubbing community is hell bent on subbing these days but only 25% or less of fansubbers actually want to sub it. Some examples of overlooked anime would include - + World Masterpiece Theatre - ran for years but no series has ever got licensed in its entireity and in a recent thread in Anime onDVD the consensus was "not a hope in hell" of license. + Galaxy Express 999 - 113 eps (what licensor would bet the bank on such a long and old show) + Captain Harlock TV (1978) + Sailor Stars - This needs no introduction of why it will NEVER get licensed not withstanding Toei's activities in recent years + The Snow Queen - 2005 version of the classic fary tale but this has been done to death so I doubt any licensor would shell out money for this license + Gallery Fake - an anime on art forgery (yeah a licensor is REALLY gonna license this) + Magical Angel Creamy Mami + Magical Fairy Persia My group subs all of these. Some of these DONT STAND A HOPE IN HELL of getting licensed as it is because they're so old and in some cases so long. Yeah I know LEGALLY we shouldnt be doing it but ethically, it's not gonna get a license so what is wrong with us showing it to the english speaking world in the hope that one day a licensor might take a risk and actually license it. In the end, for the majority of the American public, WHO is gonna buy a show that is only available in Japanese language only with no dubs / subtitles. I know some people will give me the "but you're hurting sales" argument but be realistic, how many American fans will go out and buy expensive Region 2 DVD's of a show they can't understand..(VERY FEW) and in a Region code that requires them to have a Region free dvd player. I would argue that the type of fan who is prepared to go and buy Region 2 DVD's wouldnt be put off by fansubs becase you have to be rich / crazy enough to do it and as far as the Japanese are concerned, if they're fans of it they've probably already bought the DVD's when it first came out. Of course now people are going to give me the "you're a scummy fansubber who doesnt pay for DVD's". Quote the contrary. I've spent $100's of dollar's on Japanese Region 2's sometimes at the expense of buying other more important stuff. I would say that there are over $4,000 worth of Japanese Region 2 DVD's / CD's sat on my book shelf. In some cases, it's impossible to find raws of a show without buying the DVD's of it in the first place. So yeah I sub classic / overlooked anime. And ya know in some cases the unthinkable has happened. As you will probably be aware Yawara got licensed by Animeigo. My group dropped Yawara straight away and pulled the torrents and put up a public message asking people to stop distro. Within minutes I was on the phone to Animeigo to tell them we'd dropped the show and to congratulate them on licensing it and to offer our scripts for FREE as a basis for them to get their product to market quicker. I was overjoyed to know they'd licensed it!!!. So well yeah to summarise - 1) DVD rippers and "some" new school fansubbers are scum. There is absolute no reason to rip R1's or sub licensed anime. Go and pay for it. If it's licensed you have an obligation to show your support to the legitimate lciensor 2) Fansubbing is moving away from the values upon which it was founded and heading down a dangerous "sensationalism" path as fansubbers want to sub the latest and greatest of which a lot screams sure fire license. This needs to stop if fansubbing is to survive the obvious legal challenges that face it. 3) Not all fansubbers are scum. Some do actually respect and support Region 1 licensors and some do actually pay for their anime and sometimes even more so than the average R1 fan buy spending the $$ on R2's instead of R1's. 4) Whilst you may want to persecute the R1 rippers and the "screw R1 licensors" fansubbers, don't persecute the fansubbers who still stick to old school values and sub shows that have only a very minimal hope of being licensed in the hope that one day a licensor might take a risk and license it. Regards -dasboot Old School Fansubber since 2004 |
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Zalis116
Moderator
 Posts: 6901 Location: Kazune City |
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Except, the groups can't take it out of circulation just by taking it down from their own BitTorrent tracker. Anyone with a half-decent broadband connection (40 KB/s upload) can take "[SubsOnAPlane]_Ghost_in_the_Shell_Solid_State_Society_[A4EF3920].mkv" , make a new torrent out of it, go to any number of blatant pirate trackers, upload it and say "Hey it's SSS lolz!!" and it'll be available once more. Given that tens if not hundreds of thousands of people will DL SSS, there's no way that scenario won't happen. Once it's translated and released, there'll be no containing it, which is why Bandai does want to stop fansubbing of it entirely. But, some silver lining for this thread...GitS has been a very popular franchise for what, 10 years now? Its fame extends beyond the hardcore anime fandom. Let's consider what happened with FF7: Advent Children, a title that was fansubbed even though it was obviously licensed from the very beginning. Sure, lots of people DLed it, but sales were still (seemingly) crazy on it, since it has a strong fanbase. The inevitable fansubbing of SSS will hurt a bit, but whether it will kill SSS is harder to determine. I do sometimes wonder about the whole pre-licensing thing though...for instance, Fantastic Children has been very well reviewed at AoD, having been licensed by Bandai from the start, yet very few people know about it. FC was fansubbed, and I can say now that if I hadn't read some reviews from people who had seen it all, I'm not sure if I would have bought the first 2 discs of it. (That, and labeling a 5-episode disc as 75 minutes kind of made me hesitate, score one less for Bandai QC.) Of course, it's impossible to prove cause-and-effect here, so I won't make the claim that pre-licensing kills interest. In my own activities as a fansubber, I would not sub anything licensed, especially not anything as obvious and high-profile as GitS, and it pains me to hear the anti-industry attitudes of some groups and some people on this thread. Even though I'm not 100% "pure," defying definitive announcements like that is too much. But, I think I will make plans not to DL SSS, and to buy it and the second movie, which I haven't gotten around to yet. |
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xstylus
Posts: 272 |
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Message deleted.
Last edited by xstylus on Wed Aug 23, 2006 5:28 am; edited 1 time in total |
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