Forum - View topicThe Stream - The Other Side
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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Sorry about that. I was in such a foul mood I didn't read it properly. My bad. |
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HitokiriShadow
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For the record:
spoiler[ "I think the scene was narratively justified" > NOT rape apology "I'm okay with rape as a plot device" > NOT rape apology "I don't understand why this is a big deal or why anyone cares about this, it's just dumb entertainment" > uninformed, possibly willfully ignorant, but NOT rape aplogy "Lighten up, you shouldn't care about this, it's just a cartoon" > that's dumb and you're a dick, but NOT rape apology Any comments suggesting people are being over-sensitve or that their feelings are illegitimate or something > you're a dick, but NOT rape apology "BUT NO ONE COMPLAINED ABOUT THIS IN SHOW X, Y, AND Z!" > yes, some people did, you just didn't necessarily see it, and it's completely irrelevant, but NOT rape apology "It's not that bad because Saki likes Haruto" > RAPE APOLOGY "It's not rape because she turned out to like it/she was okay with it later" > RAPE APOLOGY and that's really fucked up "It's not rape because she stopped resisting" > RAPE APOLOGY] Not all of those were necessarily said in this thread, I'm not ascribing any of those to any particular people at this point, but if you had "that word" thrown at you, you probably said something that fell in one of those last three categories. Or there might have been another one or two that I forgot about. |
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Crisha
Moderator
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Within the context of the show, this makes sense, and I get your argument. But just taking a step back and reading those sentences - spoiler[he literally didn't do it, he's innocent, mind-controlled into the act and cannot be held responsible] - they sound so asinine. Like ikillchicken and ChibiKangaroo have said, there is no real world analogy to someone being spoiler[completely mind-controlled and having his body taken over and being completely blameless to a rape his body committed.] Yes, it's a fantasy. No, entertainment doesn't have to be realistic. Yes, to enjoy shows there has to be a suspension of disbelief. But everyone has lines that they draw, and for several people - with such a sensitive topic - this is theirs (and mine). And I personally have a hard time getting around how stupid those sentences sound. I'll admit, spoiler[rape] is one of my hot buttons and so I don't see myself not getting perturbed. I think it can be handled well, but the arguments that are being made here just don't give me confidence that it was for this show (and really turn me off). I cannot make claims in regards to the execution since I haven't seen the episodes myself. I don't have a beef with anyone who can accept the scene within the context of the show (Blood-'s argument and interpretation made sense and I respect it)... but I dislike being called "oversensitive" for my repulse. Additionally, there's another dimension added to this mess - the potential, unfortunate implications. This is a show written and directed by men for a largely male audience - a male audience that is often pandered to. spoiler[The hero essentially gets to be blameless of rape. We're presented with a situation where we can be sympathetic of a guy who raped a girl but really didn't rape her because he had no control of his body whatsoever and so is blameless... oh, and she loved him anyway.] I do not make any claims or accusations in regards to what's said in the previous paragraph, but it's where my thought process goes. |
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ikillchicken
 Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
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Well I'm somewhat reluctant to speak up in agreement with the aforementioned points regardless of who is making them. Even when someone makes these claims in good faith, I'm still hesitant to propagate a point of view that too often is conscripted by people who twist it into rape apology even if that's not what's happening here. Although, despite being hesitant, I did tacitly voice my agreement since I don't think anyone I've seen here is being a rape apologist. Plus I just like to talk.  Sometimes about stuff that's irrelevant to the exact topic at hand. Hence why I clarified that I wasn't attacking anyone here though.
That too. Although I think it is a bit of a vicious cycle. I think a lot of people tend to immediately attack/dismiss people making these legitimate points in good faith because too often people make those same points in a disingenuous manner in service of rape apology. It's definitely a mistake on their part to lump all these people together but I get where they're coming from. Last edited by ikillchicken on Wed Jun 26, 2013 10:51 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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jymmy
 Posts: 1244 |
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That's okay. I've actually edited it because it seemed a bit combative (I was only trying to be thorough). Re other anime: Aiura's last episode was fantastic, I think I rate it along with Teekyuu and Inferno Cop as my favourite shorts. Last edited by jymmy on Wed Jun 26, 2013 11:05 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Key Lime Pie
 Posts: 70 Location: Seattle, Washington |
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That's apparently this site for you (I've been told). I'll be happy to talk some other series with you! ^^ |
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SwerveCity
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This thread is something else. I wonder if I'm one of only two people in the thread to actually watch the episode and the rest just heard about it and want to throw their opinion onspoiler[ rape] around.
spoiler[There is no inference that Haruto can feel or see anything while under control of the mecha or another person. If anything the opposite is implied. So no, he and anyone self-inserting wouldn't have any sexual gratification. So let's just put that behind us. Evidently Haruto feels really bad about something happening that he couldn't control. Decent enough writing there. He then reacts in a way that lots of cultures would dictate a person who has had sex with a women outside of marriage would do. Not bad writing there either. You inferring from a western cultural base that's the wrong way to react is just your opinion, that doesn't make basing something on a different culture wrong from a pure writing perspective(this is an important idea for almost all fiction to work with). Saki evidently didn't want it to happen and she couldn't fight him off. She also didn't want to remember it and hoped Haruto wouldn't bring it up. That seems like a perfectly normal reaction to a highly traumatic event.] Finally, its one episode after the event and its a bunch of teens with no understanding about what's going on. I think we should stop soapboxing for at least another episode. Oh and seriously the insults in this thread have been ridiculous. "Cis white male" is not a legitimate argument, its racist and sexist and if you were born as a straight white male you would hate people with a different skin colour and be a homophobe. Nor is douchebag a good insult, its sexist and not really insulting to anyone over the age of 12. |
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ChibiKangaroo
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Says you. Unfortunately, you are not the writers and every other audience member who has and will ever watch this show. I have little doubt that many people will find some gratification.
Yep, I've also been trying to make this separate point, but people seem to want to ignore it or act like they don't understand. |
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SwerveCity
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On the first, I don't really see how anyone could see the scene as being designed for gratification. While there are always some freaks out there who would get off on it, I don't think thats really a legitimate argument if the purpose wasn't to titillate. Unless we start to assume spoiler[rape] is always off bound for any artistic venture. In all honesty the event occurred to create controversy, this is a pretty stupid show which throws in everything it can to get ratings. I don't think the event was designed for gratification, I don't think the event was designed to show male tyranny. I think it was created for the express goal of the audience to go "OMG, what just happened. That was disgusting. What's gonna happen next?". Evidently some of us felt that way, others got the first two parts and then went "no, I'm not watching anymore. spoiler[Rape] isn't cool". I think the event was done as tastefully as this show probably could've done it. I'm not really sure they could have done it in any other way without it appearing unrealistic or without the MC coming off as a horrible person. Neither of which could really be done. In the end, that might prove to be an argument that it shouldn't have been done and was best not to be a part of the show. But like I said, this is a Sunrise show, they strive to create twists and as long as I perceive that it wasn't done for gratification and instead to take the plot in darker places, I'm okay with that. |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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Yeah, and neither are you, so don't act like you know exactly what their intent was. Especially when you have to contort the evidence into a pretzel to make it support your conclusion.
Some people will find gratification, because a small segment always do. Doesn't mean anything. Doesn't mean that gratification was the purpose of the scene.
That's rich coming from you. |
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brankoburcksen
Posts: 126 |
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Aside from some apparent pacing problems, Attack on Titan has been a really excellent show. I don't really see much to criticize in terms of quality unless you want to get into the nitty-gritty of animation or what information is being withheld by who.
Honestly, I cannot really complain too much about the pacing. Yes, episode 12 moved slow in terms of plot, leaving us in the exact same place we were at before the cliffhanger in episode 11, but it is not like it did nothing. We got some pretty good character development, and it set up a nice situation where plenty of people are putting their lives on the line for a plan that has to work, but which almost all of them have pretty much given up on. When a show like this can dole out exposition like it did in episode 11, rely on the strength of its characters when the plot grinds to a halt in episode 12 or even spend more than half its running time in one location with characters arguing with each other like in episode 10, and still be this good, you know you have a winner. |
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ChibiKangaroo
Posts: 2941 |
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I'm not acting like I know exactly what their intent was. I am stating my opinion on what their intent was. The guy I was quoting was speaking as if he had absolute certitude on the issue and it could no longer be debated. That is why I said "says you."
It means that there is a large otaku audience out there who might find some delight or titilation in a scene like this. Please see Exhibit A Kotoura San pillow cover showing her with clothes falling off, frightened like she is about to be raped |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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^
Oh come off it. Pretending that your opinion on the matter has the same weight as others is hilarious, given how little the scene supports your conclusions. And you aren't just stating what you believe, you are going one step further and using your conclusion to attack the show's fans and staff. And who cares of there's a segment of Otaku out there who buy body pillows that look like the girl is getting molested? That minority does not speak for the majority. spoiler[You would have been better off bringing up rape in Hentai as an example of how much Otaku like rape and how far the Hentai creators go to try and justify rape in their story.] Except even that wouldn't have mattered, because the scene in Valvrave the Liberator was clearly just done for the shock value. The fact that some people incidentally get off to that or draw doujin or whatever is quite frankly irrelevant, because people always do. |
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jymmy
Posts: 1244 |
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That's fetishised vulnerability right there. In Valvrave spoiler[it was clearly a bad thing - see the darkness, violence, tragic music, unpleasant growling - not erotic at all but bestial - the blur effects, drawn-out unsexy angles, the focus on clothing and lack of focus on skin, the ugly facial expressions and so on]. If you think that's constructed to be appealing as opposed to being ugly, I seriously question your ability to analyse film. |
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ChibiKangaroo
Posts: 2941 |
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I'm not pretending that my opinion has the same weight as others, I know it does. I do try to give the same respect to others' opinions as I wish for my own, so I am not going to state categorically or with certitude that no one can have an opinion other than mine. That is exactly what SwerveCity was doing, and I called him on it. You seem to be in favor of shutting out other people's opinions too. Fine. Also, as I said numerous times, I wasn't attacking anyone. I am just stating facts and my opinion on the rationale behind such a spoiler[rape scene] being included in this anime. Given that most people, including you, seemed to agree that it makes no sense that such a scene was even included in this anime, I am trying to make sense of it. If that offends you then I think you are being way too sensitive.
I care, and I think anyone who is trying to objectively analyze this thing should care as well. You can't just totally ignore evidence that doesn't support your personal opinion. The fact is, these body pillows/covers etc are very popular among a large otaku fan base. They are being manufactured because they are making a crap load of money. You can't just pretend like that doesn't exist because you don't like the implications. (P.S. I think it should be noted that that particular pillow cover is being advertised enthusiastically on Crunchyroll, which does not serve a tiny minority of otaku.) As I said above, I am not even trying to attack those otaku who are in to it. I have no problem with anyone having whatever kind of fetishes they want. That's the nature of free speech and freedom of ideas. I am just acknowledging the fact that they ARE in to it, and stating my opinion that I think often anime writing caters to them to a certain degree. If you are offended by that, then there's nothing I can do about it. |
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