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Megiddo wrote:

Also I was going over the ANN news article on the sale and it's really telling that Navarre bought FUNimation for 114 million USD and sold it for 24 million USD. In 2004 Funimation's total net sales were 72 million USD and in 2010 FUNi's total net sales were 35 million USD. Interesting info that seems to support what Goto said about the lowering of anime prices post 2005 and the lack of growth in the industry despite the much lower prices.

From Wikipedia

"It is speculated that FUNimation was sold at such a low cost (in comparison to how much it was originally purchased for, almost 100 million in cash and 15 million in stock in 2005) because Navarre wanted to continue distributing goods in relation to the products, but not handle the publishing. Navarre will remain as exclusive distributor of Funimation's titles."

Please note I am not saying Wikipedia has the answer just that there might be more to it then these numbers indicate that we are not privy to.

Blood- wrote:

My apologies for getting this post and a subsequent one conflated. Okay, I asked you to cite an example of a high selling Japanese title that didn't eventually get an R1 physical release. You cited Hyouka which only started broadcasting in the winter. The fact it was one of the few Japanese titles that wasn't licensed for streaming is interesting and I can see why it would make you wonder if that is an indication that it may never get a R1 physical release, but it is still too early to make that assumption based only on the lack of a licensed stream. We can't even draw on historical comparisons because this phenomenon of most anime titles getting licenses for streaming is so new.

Streaming was put on as less a concrete example and more a means to an end. But at the point in time for it now, R1 companies would normally be showing at least some amount of interest in it. Something they haven't done either.

It certainly could be licensed. As long as the masters exist, anything could be. But given the state of the industry as it is now, I'd say it's on the less likely side of getting licensed than the more liekly side.

Maybe if Bakemonogatari sells well and makes other companies stop being so scared of how "Japanese" a show may be I'll change my mind. But for now I wouldn't be too terribly surprised if nothing came of it for a long while, if ever.

Hahaha oh wow. Speculation. Not even any source at all to back up said speculation. Surely if Navarre remained the distributor then there would be some factual way to back that up, especially now that we're a year and a half since the sale.

I don't mind when people quote Wiki. However, I very much-so mind when people quote Wiki that has absolutely zero sources to back up the quoted information.

Megiddo wrote:

Hahaha oh wow. Speculation. Not even any source at all to back up said speculation. Surely if Navarre remained the distributor then there would be some factual way to back that up, especially now that we're a year and a half since the sale.

I don't mind when people quote Wiki. However, I very much-so mind when people quote Wiki that has absolutely zero sources to back up the quoted information.

Um it's not speculation it states it right here in this press release

http://ir.navarre.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=105157&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=1546557&highlight=

The speculation was why they sold so low (and apparently in cash). And I stated in my post that a quote from Wiki is not proof just that there could be more that we are not privy to. It's not speculation that Navarre remained as a distributor after the sale.

Now I think I read they are longer the distributor but at the time of the sale they were.

edit: Here is the article on ANN animenewsnetwork.com/news/2011-04-04/navarre-sells-funimation-to-group-with-gen-fukunaga

edit 2: No longer distributor according to this article http://www.japanator.com/navarre-ceases-distributing-in-2012-funimation-affected-20973.phtml but also according to the article that seems to have nothing to do with Funimation but more to do with Navarre dropping out of the distribution of home video in general.

DeityofDestiny wrote:

Blood- wrote:

My apologies for getting this post and a subsequent one conflated. Okay, I asked you to cite an example of a high selling Japanese title that didn't eventually get an R1 physical release. You cited Hyouka which only started broadcasting in the winter. The fact it was one of the few Japanese titles that wasn't licensed for streaming is interesting and I can see why it would make you wonder if that is an indication that it may never get a R1 physical release, but it is still too early to make that assumption based only on the lack of a licensed stream. We can't even draw on historical comparisons because this phenomenon of most anime titles getting licenses for streaming is so new.

Streaming was put on as less a concrete example and more a means to an end. But at the point in time for it now, R1 companies would normally be showing at least some amount of interest in it. Something they haven't done either.

It certainly could be licensed. As long as the masters exist, anything could be. But given the state of the industry as it is now, I'd say it's on the less likely side of getting licensed than the more liekly side.

Maybe if Bakemonogatari sells well and makes other companies stop being so scared of how "Japanese" a show may be I'll change my mind. But for now I wouldn't be too terribly surprised if nothing came of it for a long while, if ever.

You've made that bolded point before, but how do you know that no R1 companies have expressed an interest in Hyouka? Distribs are not in the habit of announcing which titles they are interested in until they have an official announcement to make. Before it pulled up stakes, Bandai was going to release My Ordinary Life in R1. I realize that was a poor seller in Japan, so it doesn't follow our Bake example, but it shows that even very Japanese titles do get released and are considered for release.

But in any case, you still fall into the circular logic trap:

1) Aniplex wants $X for Bake license;

2) Non-AoA R1 distrib is only offering $Y for Bake license;

3) Aniplex decides that's too low and so decides to make $0 off the license rather than playing ball.

Ergo, AoA is necessary because otherwise Aniplex won't make the license available. Laughing

I mean, that's perfectly true, but it kind of misses my point.

I'm going to say something which is not going to be very popular: perhaps the problems of reverse importing would not exist if they would adjust their Japanese business model, which remains largely insular to changes in the home video market.

I think the biggest problem is they don't even try anymore to tap commercial sponsorship. Clearly, PMMM could have and should have run during a non-late night slot. Ditto for Chihayafuru, a TV exec even said as much. Hell, even Fate/Zero was tame enough with plenty of opportunity for cross appeal. The problem is that the industry has become so risk-adverse that they are displaying a bunker mentality. This is not without reason, I will admit that times have changed along with fortunes, meaning that don't want change when it works for them in the short run. However, clinging to the outdated model that no longer exists in the rest of the world is not only cynical, bur a foolish gamble in the long run that does not account for the demographic time bomb. Radical change is going to come eventually as fortunes continue change in Japan; the current way is not sustainable. They are going to have to find ways to pander to the mainstream in ways that create multiple streams of revenue that compliment each other instead of relying ENTIRELY on otaku home video sales to fund everything. Going back to Fate/Zero. I could clearly see this show having appeal with younger kids who would want to play with figures and other character goods. The show is quite enjoyable stand-alone and need not require a fanatic attention to detail. Clearly, there are also opportunities for mainstream video games and other ventures. There is a lot of possibility, but it would mean to some extent, Type-Moon accepting the need to start separating the franchise from its ero-VN roots. This probably would not sit well with fans who demand strict adaptation, but I think this is the future.

Now, some will say that the mainstream doesn't buy like otaku do. They will point to mainstream-oriented shows that flopping recently and decry any call for change. I argue that you cannot appeal to the mainstream when the mainstream is already disenfranchised from your market. The reason why Sony Music Entertainment/Aniplex and others are scared of attempting this is precisely because they have an image problem, as Chris McDonald pointed out a year or two back. In short, they need to segregate their operations so that the pandering elements (T&A shows, loli shows, incest shows, fujoshi shows, NEET/hikikomori wish-fulfillment shows) are no longer associated with general anime. That is not to say they need to stop making them, but they should not be marketed as what anime is. Without a separation, this is a self-fulfilling prophecy of sorts since the reason the mainstream isn't buying is precisely because they do not wish to be associated with the current image of the otaku who do. One's public face is a huge factor in Japanese culture and this is largely determined by the collective they are associated with. I cannot emphasize this enough. So, is it really any surprise that most Japanese do not wish to be seen as hentai (perverts)? Though, I grant that fans of the status quo would not appreciate this since it would mean less pandering for them. But the reality is that all shows are going to be lumped together, regardless of content, and thus will be forced to find revenue in the very limited markets they share. Therein lies the problem: any economist worth their salt would say this business practice is very unhealthy. I don't know how this can change without a lot of pain to fans and companies alike, but I strongly believe it will be required for long run success. Only then can you reasonably expect the AoA's to change their business model. As it stands, they are a division of the largest entertainment company in Japan, and thus can afford to pick and choose what they release how to price it. In effect they operate in an oligopoly that does not include Funimation or Sentai.

Blood- wrote:

There is no "miracle" in AoA getting this title. Aniplex, AoA's parent company gave it to them to release.

With Bakemonogatari, it's been highly suspected that Kodansha (who publishes the light novels) holds the international rights (I don't know how true it is, but this is something I've seen tossed around a lot).

So, if it 100% the case that Kodansha holds the international rights, AoJ just can't give the release to AoA. But, having AoJ as the parent company probably/maybe helped in securing the rights though since it's also been suspected that license was too expensive.

Another example of a title that if AoA somehow releases that won't be handed on a plate to them from AoJ is Idolm@ster. Bamco is the one who holds the rights to that.

Maidenoftheredhand wrote:

Mirri wrote:

"Casual fans" was in reference to the lack of understanding of the reason S.A.V.E. exists. It's nothing about "true fan this" "true fan that"

S.A.V.E. as it is is two things:

Where successful anime go to milk the fanbase that didn't pay the high price for them. (Ex. Mahou Sensei Negima)

Where unsuccessful anime go after they completely fail to sell because nobody would pay the proper price for them. (Ex. Big Windup!)

I think it's fine for people to want lower prices, but I think that they should also consider more than simply their want for the item. Fans need to realize the consequences of their buying habits (I know maybe 10 people, total, in the anime communities that I personally participate in, that buy new items consistently that aren't 100% S.A.V.E., and don't get me started on people who say "I support the industry!" but they buy 100% used)

You do realize that cheap completed box sets have been out well before SAVE. SAVE is just one imprint of this type of packaging.

There are also many different type of buyers. Some buyers want something as soon as it is released and are willing to pay more for it. Some buyers are willing to wait for that deal the complete box set gives you, and for some buyers it depends on the specific title (not every series has the same value to a person.) Now I personally am the third type of buyer. I have my own personal rating scale of how I decide to buy a series (now or wait). But just because I have waited for complete sets for some series does not mean I also don't buy many series as soon as they come out.

And heck some buyers are willing to import from Japan because they want the title immediately and don't want to wait for it to come to the US (and that is why while I am not a fan of Aniplex US, I actually don't care about their Fate Zero release because I understand this is in reality an import). And even with importers I expect they are willing to import certain series but then are also willing to wait for others.

The issue is you can't lump buyers into only a few categories. Everyone has their own methods & reasons for buying what they do. If you have less price options, you just make your market smaller & more insular in the end. These is certainly not the way to make the fandom grow.

And as for SAVE I don't think anyone expects or wants anime to be priced like that at first release. That to me is an extreme. But after it's been out for awhile, I don't think it's a big deal (and personally I would even be fine if these companies waited longer to release the cheaper box sets...I think a year seems to be the norm now).

SAVE sets the bar far lower than any other line. $20 for a 24 episode series? That's lower than any other discount line has ever gone. It gives a lot of fans the wrong idea about how the market works. The kind of fans who don't even know AnimeNewsNetwork exists.

I know that some fans are willing to import from Japan, I'm one of them.

Did you even read the interview? I'll just take this snippet out of it and put it in a quote for you:

Hentry Goto, President of Aniplex of America wrote:

How would you personally characterize the R1 market for physical anime releases? What realities would you say people need to understand when it comes to this particular market?

Although R1 anime product prices have dropped significantly after 2005, the R1 anime market didn't grow. anime BD/DVD sections in stores are not as big as they used be, the number of anime publishers has been decreasing too.

The market hasn't expanded due to more buying options. It has stagnated.

And you must not know a lot of fans who don't have much money because there are plenty of people who want every release to be SAVE priced and they claim that it would expand the market, because they don't understand the order of magnitudes of additional sales that would be required in order to make the same profit - and on top of that, they vehemently deny any math provided, which is admittedly speculation, as speculation- even if it provides a basic understanding of the concept of how the numbers would look, in theory..

Megiddo wrote:

Quote:

Yup, and Navarre wanted to cut ties with them and sold the entire company to investors (including FUNimation's CEO) for a whopping 24 million USD, or about half of Bakemonogatari's approximate gross domestic sales.

It's pretty bad when the biggest anime distributor in North America has such relatively little value.

Also I was going over the ANN news article on the sale and it's really telling that Navarre bought FUNimation for 114 million USD and sold it for 24 million USD. In 2004 Funimation's total net sales were 72 million USD and in 2010 FUNi's total net sales were 35 million USD. Interesting info that seems to support what Goto said about the lowering of anime prices post 2005 and the lack of growth in the industry despite the much lower prices.

What the heck does it say about the status of the North American anime industry when given data like this? Or is actual statistical data kind of like kryptonite to the arguments of several posters in this thread and so people simply ignore it?

It really seems like a lot of the fandom is in denial about the current state of affairs.

dragon695 wrote:

I'm going to say something which is not going to be very popular: perhaps the problems of reverse importing would not exist if they would adjust their Japanese business model, which remains largely insular to changes in the home video market.

But Draaaagooonnn, don't you realize that having more price options is more appealing to consumers and makes the market less small and insular?

Okay, maybe that was a little bit too sharp of a sarcastic comment, but on the serious end of things,I would not be surprised if the market increased in value if this were to happen. Honestly, I think things would get much better if we went back to a model more like 5-10 years ago, where we were paying twice as much for full-series boxes. Heck, by that standard, Aniplex's releases are actually remotely reasonably priced. But not only is it a price difference thing, it's also a thing with the majority of the American market transitioning in to streaming exclusively for everything.

Kind of but not entirely on topic, I saw this today on a blog that I enjoy while browsing the backlog and I thought it might be able to shed some different perspective on this entire situation, or at least, some price stuff.

http://walkofdarkness.wordpress.com/2012/07/28/importing-the-original-anime-dvdbd-releases-from-japan-why/

Mirri wrote:

http://walkofdarkness.wordpress.com/2012/07/28/importing-the-original-anime-dvdbd-releases-from-japan-why/

this is my first time seeing this, but I love you for posting it

Some of you guys talking about how the anime industry has shrunk even though prices have fallen: you are aware, aren't you, that the US (and global) economy has been through its most difficult period in decades, right? That a lot of adults (the people with money) have less of it to throw around at things like anime compared with... food, rent, etc. I know that *I* have had less money (a lot less) to spend on anime this year -- last year, too.

So, of course, people will be buying less anime under such overall conditions, regardless of lowering the price. That said, even if I was flush with cash, I would never spend these "import" prices by AoA. I *might've* been talked into buying PMMM for $130, though. However, as things stand, that's not going to happen, and seeing it for $40 in the UK was just a poke in the eye. It's not the sort of thing that makes a potential customer cozy up to AoA -- quite the opposite, really.

Anyway, it's been a while since I've seen people so determined to justify spending large amounts of cash on an over-priced product. I guess I should just leave you to it. It's your money, after all. And if that means that this excessive price point structure continues on into the future, then I guess I'll just have to deal with not getting those titles, just as Zac said.

Mirri wrote:

SAVE sets the bar far lower than any other line. $20 for a 24 episode series? That's lower than any other discount line has ever gone. It gives a lot of fans the wrong idea about how the market works. The kind of fans who don't even know AnimeNewsNetwork exists.

SAVE is for series that didn't sell well to begin with. Just because there is a SAVE line does not automatically mean that these series would have sold well. Not every series is going to be a hit, even in Japan this is true.

Even before the SAVE line series failed to sell here.

Quote:

I know that some fans are willing to import from Japan, I'm one of them.

I wasn't proving a fact to you, I was pointing out there are many types of fans.

Quote:

Did you even read the interview? I'll just take this snippet out of it and put it in a quote for you:

Yes I read the article, maybe you can try not to be so condescending

Quote:

Although R1 anime product prices have dropped significantly after 2005, the R1 anime market didn't grow. anime BD/DVD sections in stores are not as big as they used be, the number of anime publishers has been decreasing too.[/b]

Yes the bubble burst, the economy is bad all over the world. DVD/BR sales are down in general. Obviously a niche market like anime is going to be hurt. Is it really that surprising?

But people keep acting like Aniplex USA's model will definitely be a success here. Well so far there is no real data to back that up. We don't know what is going to happen in the long term In the end both low end and high end anime companies have went out of business in the US. What makes Aniplex USA so different from Bandai Visual?

And yes I am sure everyone would want sales to be like Japan. But that's not going to happen and even in Japan it's only a very select group supporting the industry and only select series are hits.

Quote:

And you must not know a lot of fans who don't have much money

So the fans who don't have much money at least buy something instead of buying nothing.

If SAVE came out the same time as the initial release I can understand your reasoning but it doesn't.

[/thread]

What does mentioning the economy= Hitler or something. The new Godwins law. Laughing

Look I don't care that Aniplex USA exists and maybe their pricing strategy will work for them. I might personally hope they don't license series I enjoy (because I think their products are not even that great for their prices) but I don't wish they will go out of business.

However it's annoying when people act like other companies will go out of business because they don't price anime in the US like Aniplex USA. Or if people don't like Aniplex USA prices they are entitled and don't want to support the industry.

The anime industry in the US might not be as strong as it once was but I also don't think its doomsday here. We are still getting series licensed, we have legal streaming now, we still have conventions, and new companies have popped up to replace the old...considering it could be much worse.

Maidenoftheredhand wrote:

and new companies have popped up to replace the old...

NISA and AniplexUSA for recent newer ones.

funny coincidence, eh?

DeityofDestiny wrote:

Maidenoftheredhand wrote:

and new companies have popped up to replace the old...

NISA and AniplexUSA for recent newer ones.

funny coincidence, eh?

Are you saying they are higher end companies?

I don't actually consider NISA higher end at all. They aren't cheap but they aren't overpriced in my opinion either, more on the middle of the scale. They are actually my favorite anime company in the US at the moment.

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